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	<title>Comments on: Glyn Morgan at the Chron</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77421</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 18:09:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77421</guid>
		<description>Forget Bosnia, I worry about a unified Europe because of Rwanda.  Does no one remember the new Rwandan government claiming it was France who aided and abetted the Hutu militia?  And you might say that was international politics, well in the past, but then ask yourself when was the last time Robert Mugabe got a guided tour of France from Chirac.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Forget Bosnia, I worry about a unified Europe because of Rwanda.  Does no one remember the new Rwandan government claiming it was France who aided and abetted the Hutu militia?  And you might say that was international politics, well in the past, but then ask yourself when was the last time Robert Mugabe got a guided tour of France from Chirac.</p>
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		<title>By: des von bladet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77306</link>
		<dc:creator>des von bladet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 14:04:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77306</guid>
		<description>Did I miss the bit where a combined military capability necessarily implies a &quot;Superstate&quot;?  Or does this &quot;Superstate&quot; malarkey begin and end as an International Relations pipedream?  

(Which is not necessarily sillier than the old pipedream of a Federal European state predicated on the hegemony of French bureaucrats, I suppose.  My own plan of reunifying the Holy Roman Empire under my own leadership doesn&#039;t seem so silly anymore, by comparison.  Although admittedly I have yet to be invited to do a colloquy at the &quot;Chron&quot;, whatever that is.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Did I miss the bit where a combined military capability necessarily implies a &#8220;Superstate&#8221;?  Or does this &#8220;Superstate&#8221; malarkey begin and end as an International Relations pipedream?</p>

	<p>(Which is not necessarily sillier than the old pipedream of a Federal European state predicated on the hegemony of French bureaucrats, I suppose.  My own plan of reunifying the Holy Roman Empire under my own leadership doesn&#8217;t seem so silly anymore, by comparison.  Although admittedly I have yet to be invited to do a colloquy at the &#8220;Chron&#8221;, whatever that is.)</p>
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		<title>By: glyn morgan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77302</link>
		<dc:creator>glyn morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77302</guid>
		<description>Re: John Quiggin.  I will try to address these issues in more detail in David Glenn&#039;s colloquy organized on the book tomorrow. But I think that a lot of people here are deluding themselves on (i) the capacities of European states to project power abroad in the face of either US isolationism or US obstructionism; and (ii) the desirability of European states lacking the capacity to project power abroad. Doubtless, there is more to security than the capacity to project power abroad. But I don&#039;t believe that either Europe or the World benefits from a single Superpower. More generally, I don&#039;t think Europeans ought to depend as much as they do on the United States. Dependence is itself a form of insecurity. Europeans have a responsibility to free themselves from this humiliating form of dependence and to fashion a more humane and decent global order. For that, they have to become a Superpower.  Like many Europeans, I was embarrassed by Europe&#039;s ineffectual dithering in the face of the destruction of Bosnia. The Idea of a European Superstate emerged, at least in part, out of that embarrassment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: John Quiggin.  I will try to address these issues in more detail in David Glenn&#8217;s colloquy organized on the book tomorrow. But I think that a lot of people here are deluding themselves on (i) the capacities of European states to project power abroad in the face of either US isolationism or US obstructionism; and (ii) the desirability of European states lacking the capacity to project power abroad. Doubtless, there is more to security than the capacity to project power abroad. But I don&#8217;t believe that either Europe or the World benefits from a single Superpower. More generally, I don&#8217;t think Europeans ought to depend as much as they do on the United States. Dependence is itself a form of insecurity. Europeans have a responsibility to free themselves from this humiliating form of dependence and to fashion a more humane and decent global order. For that, they have to become a Superpower.  Like many Europeans, I was embarrassed by Europe&#8217;s ineffectual dithering in the face of the destruction of Bosnia. The Idea of a European Superstate emerged, at least in part, out of that embarrassment.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77298</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77298</guid>
		<description>Jet, this gets back to the earlier question -  what was the justification for the Iraq invasion? What goal was the US army trying to achieve, such that it could have withdrawn after a month and been successful?

Goal 1: Remove the threat of Saddam using WMDs? 
My granny could have done that as well as the US army, and she&#039;s dead. 
Goal 2: Remove the possibility of Iraq supplying WMDs to terrorists?
Ok, assume that there were WMDs in Iraq. Unless the one-month occupancy managed to destroy all the WMDs, a civil war makes it more likely, not less, that any WMDs will fall into the hands of terrorists.
Goal 3: Remove an odious regime?
Would a one-month campaign have been successful, given that Saddam wasn&#039;t found for six months? Even if it was, how much of an improvement would the succeeding regime have been? 
Goal 4: Create a democratic beacon of light and hope, rescuing the poor Iraqis?
Not noticeably successful after 2 years, let alone 1 month. 

The US and UK govts publically stated that their goal was not just to get Saddam out of power, but that&#039;s the only job that the army could have done in one month.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jet, this gets back to the earlier question &#8211;  what was the justification for the Iraq invasion? What goal was the US army trying to achieve, such that it could have withdrawn after a month and been successful?</p>

	<p>Goal 1: Remove the threat of Saddam using WMDs?<br />
My granny could have done that as well as the US army, and she&#8217;s dead.<br />
Goal 2: Remove the possibility of Iraq supplying WMDs to terrorists?<br />
Ok, assume that there were WMDs in Iraq. Unless the one-month occupancy managed to destroy all the WMDs, a civil war makes it more likely, not less, that any WMDs will fall into the hands of terrorists.<br />
Goal 3: Remove an odious regime?<br />
Would a one-month campaign have been successful, given that Saddam wasn&#8217;t found for six months? Even if it was, how much of an improvement would the succeeding regime have been?<br />
Goal 4: Create a democratic beacon of light and hope, rescuing the poor Iraqis?<br />
Not noticeably successful after 2 years, let alone 1 month.</p>

	<p>The US and UK govts publically stated that their goal was not just to get Saddam out of power, but that&#8217;s the only job that the army could have done in one month.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77294</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77294</guid>
		<description>Soru, you have a point. 

It would be interesting to build a model and analyze what kind of world is more stable and less dangerous - unipolar or bipolar. 

Or maybe what we need is Orwell&#039;s world with permanent low-intensity war between Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. After all, even back in the &quot;peaceful&quot; 1990s every day there were about 1,000 soldiers killed somewhere on the planet and about 5,000 civilians...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Soru, you have a point.</p>

	<p>It would be interesting to build a model and analyze what kind of world is more stable and less dangerous &#8211; unipolar or bipolar.</p>

	<p>Or maybe what we need is Orwell&#8217;s world with permanent low-intensity war between Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia. After all, even back in the &#8220;peaceful&#8221; 1990s every day there were about 1,000 soldiers killed somewhere on the planet and about 5,000 civilians&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77289</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 12:49:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77289</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;...and Iraq shows that the US capacity is bounded at quite a low level.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  Not to quibble, but Iraq proves quite the contrary.  If the US had decided to leave Iraq after the first month of the war, Iraq would not have been a threat to anyone, the Iraqi military would not have been able to put down a US armed Kurdish rebellion, and the US would have required few assets to make sure Iraq stayed in chaos.  The only thing tying down the US in Iraq is humanitarian causes, the military&#039;s main job in Iraq was mostly finished in two weeks, proving the contrary to your statement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>&#8230;and Iraq shows that the US capacity is bounded at quite a low level.</blockquote>  Not to quibble, but Iraq proves quite the contrary.  If the US had decided to leave Iraq after the first month of the war, Iraq would not have been a threat to anyone, the Iraqi military would not have been able to put down a US armed Kurdish rebellion, and the US would have required few assets to make sure Iraq stayed in chaos.  The only thing tying down the US in Iraq is humanitarian causes, the military&#8217;s main job in Iraq was mostly finished in two weeks, proving the contrary to your statement.</p>
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		<title>By: nikolai</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77280</link>
		<dc:creator>nikolai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77280</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t read the book (yet). But - from what I&#039;ve seen - I suspect most the &quot;problems&quot; are hypothetical. You can suppose that the US could be incapable of providing external security because its military is bogged down somewhere, or if it were to become isolationist. But that is supposing an awful lot.

I&#039;d also note that defence spending is decided democratically, and the only two nations in the EU with serious millitaries are the UK and France. If an EU-wide policy was instituted then how could we be sure that their would be an improvement on the current state of affairs? As opposed to the current situation being dilluted down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t read the book (yet). But &#8211; from what I&#8217;ve seen &#8211; I suspect most the &#8220;problems&#8221; are hypothetical. You can suppose that the US could be incapable of providing external security because its military is bogged down somewhere, or if it were to become isolationist. But that is supposing an awful lot.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d also note that defence spending is decided democratically, and the only two nations in the EU with serious millitaries are the UK and France. If an EU-wide policy was instituted then how could we be sure that their would be an improvement on the current state of affairs? As opposed to the current situation being dilluted down.</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77279</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77279</guid>
		<description>--
It would be nice to have another military superpower, though, otherwise when a bunch of deranged messianic megalomaniacs manage to take over the solo superpower there’s nothing to stop these bastards. 
--

It only takes one bunch of deranged messianic megalomaniacs in charge of a superpower to make the world an arbitrarily bad place.

Two superpowers, twice the chance of there being one or more DMMs. If the DMM has a 50% chance of beating the other superpower, there&#039;s no net gain in expected number of people not ruled by a DMM, but still increased likelihood of war.

And that&#039;s ignoring the possibility of a WWI-style war between two non-DMM superpowers.

soru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8212;It would be nice to have another military superpower, though, otherwise when a bunch of deranged messianic megalomaniacs manage to take over the solo superpower there&#8217;s nothing to stop these bastards.&#8212;<br />
It only takes one bunch of deranged messianic megalomaniacs in charge of a superpower to make the world an arbitrarily bad place.</p>

	<p>Two superpowers, twice the chance of there being one or more DMMs. If the <span class="caps">DMM</span> has a 50% chance of beating the other superpower, there&#8217;s no net gain in expected number of people not ruled by a <span class="caps">DMM</span>, but still increased likelihood of war.</p>

	<p>And that&#8217;s ignoring the possibility of a <span class="caps">WWI</span>-style war between two non-DMM superpowers.</p>

	<p>soru</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77278</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 10:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77278</guid>
		<description>A unified and powerful military is precisely why I think a superstate would be a bad idea. Once the boys get their toys they’ll use them. All this talk of Power has uncomfortable overtones of pre-WWI. We’re a Great Power so we need a Navy and Army, then the others start to build against that threat and so on.
US the global hegemon? Fine, let them pay for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A unified and powerful military is precisely why I think a superstate would be a bad idea. Once the boys get their toys they&#8217;ll use them. All this talk of Power has uncomfortable overtones of pre-WWI. We&#8217;re a Great Power so we need a Navy and Army, then the others start to build against that threat and so on.<br />
US the global hegemon? Fine, let them pay for it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs Tilton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77277</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77277</guid>
		<description>Belgium, indeed. And need I mention Ireland, whose population is divided among speakers of English, Gaeilge and Cavan?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Belgium, indeed. And need I mention Ireland, whose population is divided among speakers of English, Gaeilge and Cavan?</p>
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		<title>By: des von bladet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77275</link>
		<dc:creator>des von bladet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 09:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77275</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;India? Switzerland? China?&lt;/i&gt;

Belgium, man!  Belgium!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>India? Switzerland? China?</i></p>

	<p>Belgium, man!  Belgium!</p>
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		<title>By: Elliott Oti</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77236</link>
		<dc:creator>Elliott Oti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 08:21:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77236</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t think Holsclaw&#039;s comment (nr 21) is silly at all. It&#039;s spot on. I agree with Quiggin that scale is  more important than range wrt to defensive issues (as opposed to global-scale hegemonic aspirations), but the ERRF is at the moment largely unproven vapourware. 

There&#039;s a large gap between US policy re independent EU military policy, which has been to thwart it at every available opportunity, and US rhetoric on the same, especially the red meat thrown at the local conservative audiences, which is the exact opposite. Unless this gap is resolved one way or the other, or else explicitly acknowledged in EU defence policy, the ERRF will essentially be NATO-lite, and remain just as ineffective.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t think Holsclaw&#8217;s comment (nr 21) is silly at all. It&#8217;s spot on. I agree with Quiggin that scale is  more important than range wrt to defensive issues (as opposed to global-scale hegemonic aspirations), but the <span class="caps">ERRF</span> is at the moment largely unproven vapourware.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s a large gap between US policy re independent EU military policy, which has been to thwart it at every available opportunity, and US rhetoric on the same, especially the red meat thrown at the local conservative audiences, which is the exact opposite. Unless this gap is resolved one way or the other, or else explicitly acknowledged in EU defence policy, the <span class="caps">ERRF</span> will essentially be <span class="caps">NATO</span>-lite, and remain just as ineffective.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77189</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 07:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77189</guid>
		<description>Sebastian, limits of scale have been more important than limits of range, as &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2002-09/26/content_137812.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;this story&lt;/a&gt; of French troops rescuing American schoolchildren in Cote d&#039;Ivoire makes clear. 

The EU&#039;s failure in Bosnia led to attempts to expand capacity to respond to events of this kind, notably the European Rapid Reaction Force. It remains to be seen how effective this will be, but there&#039;s no obvious reason to think it couldn&#039;t handle Bosnia-size emergencies in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sebastian, limits of scale have been more important than limits of range, as <a href="http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/en/doc/2002-09/26/content_137812.htm" rel="nofollow">this story</a> of French troops rescuing American schoolchildren in Cote d&#8217;Ivoire makes clear.</p>

	<p>The EU&#8217;s failure in Bosnia led to attempts to expand capacity to respond to events of this kind, notably the European Rapid Reaction Force. It remains to be seen how effective this will be, but there&#8217;s no obvious reason to think it couldn&#8217;t handle Bosnia-size emergencies in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: mq</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77184</link>
		<dc:creator>mq</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 05:26:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77184</guid>
		<description>The history of the past few decades (and I suspect the history of the next few as well) shows that massive projection of force overseas does more to create terrorism than to stop it.  Good police work can stop it, Europe needs to integrate that cross-nationally but I suspect in many ways they already have.

What military threat will Europe face in the forseeable future that some combination of France, Germany, and Britain working together can&#039;t easily handle?

And what percentage of Sebastian&#039;s comments (like the first one in this thread) are clearly silly and open to immediate disproof?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The history of the past few decades (and I suspect the history of the next few as well) shows that massive projection of force overseas does more to create terrorism than to stop it.  Good police work can stop it, Europe needs to integrate that cross-nationally but I suspect in many ways they already have.</p>

	<p>What military threat will Europe face in the forseeable future that some combination of France, Germany, and Britain working together can&#8217;t easily handle?</p>

	<p>And what percentage of Sebastian&#8217;s comments (like the first one in this thread) are clearly silly and open to immediate disproof?</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/comment-page-1/#comment-77182</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jul 2005 03:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/05/glyn-m0rgan-at-the-chron/#comment-77182</guid>
		<description>&quot;So I’m inferring that what is really meant is that Europe relies on the US for long-distance force projection as in Afghanistan. There’s something to this but only in a limited range. European powers can do this kind of thing on a small scale, and Iraq shows that the US capacity is bounded at quite a low level.&quot;

I think you should investigate the European difficulties in Bosnia and Kosovo a little bit more unless you count right next door as beyond the limited range.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;So I&#8217;m inferring that what is really meant is that Europe relies on the US for long-distance force projection as in Afghanistan. There&#8217;s something to this but only in a limited range. European powers can do this kind of thing on a small scale, and Iraq shows that the US capacity is bounded at quite a low level.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I think you should investigate the European difficulties in Bosnia and Kosovo a little bit more unless you count right next door as beyond the limited range.</p>
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