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	<title>Comments on: Massive Multi-Thinker Online Reviews</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: jholbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-80111</link>
		<dc:creator>jholbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2005 05:24:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-80111</guid>
		<description>Yes, Howard the Duck is a serious contender. But there&#039;s something so charmingly ill-advised about it. &quot;Elektra&quot; is just cynically sleek. A think so calculated to catch they eye - like a car commercial - that the eye just slides off out of boredom.

Response to Kragen Sitaker: yes, it was quite wrong to say &#039;comment box&#039; rather than &#039;group blog&#039;, by way of invoking the indefinite possibility I have in mind. The goal of my little events is to garner a collection of thoughtful posts by numerous discussants, rather than a whole trail of off-the-cuff comments. (Comments are welcome and add value, but they certainly aren&#039;t, and can&#039;t be, the focus.)

The problem is indeed that blogs are locked into the news-cycle pace. The datestamp is sort of a curse that way. We need something like the efficient form but without the manic pace.

As to the question of whether academic work is supposed to provoke immediate response: there is certainly work that is meant for the ages - or the decades, at least - and shouldn&#039;t be expected to generate a cloud of instant discussion. One should be able to excuse such work from what I am proposing. But there is also a sense in which the convenient fiction of the long view simply serves as polite concealment for overproduction. (I talk about this more in the original post.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, Howard the Duck is a serious contender. But there&#8217;s something so charmingly ill-advised about it. &#8220;Elektra&#8221; is just cynically sleek. A think so calculated to catch they eye &#8211; like a car commercial &#8211; that the eye just slides off out of boredom.</p>

	<p>Response to Kragen Sitaker: yes, it was quite wrong to say &#8216;comment box&#8217; rather than &#8216;group blog&#8217;, by way of invoking the indefinite possibility I have in mind. The goal of my little events is to garner a collection of thoughtful posts by numerous discussants, rather than a whole trail of off-the-cuff comments. (Comments are welcome and add value, but they certainly aren&#8217;t, and can&#8217;t be, the focus.)</p>

	<p>The problem is indeed that blogs are locked into the news-cycle pace. The datestamp is sort of a curse that way. We need something like the efficient form but without the manic pace.</p>

	<p>As to the question of whether academic work is supposed to provoke immediate response: there is certainly work that is meant for the ages &#8211; or the decades, at least &#8211; and shouldn&#8217;t be expected to generate a cloud of instant discussion. One should be able to excuse such work from what I am proposing. But there is also a sense in which the convenient fiction of the long view simply serves as polite concealment for overproduction. (I talk about this more in the original post.)</p>
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		<title>By: Down and Out in Saigon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-80089</link>
		<dc:creator>Down and Out in Saigon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jul 2005 01:38:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-80089</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re all wrong. It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Howard the Duck&lt;/i&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You&#8217;re all wrong. It&#8217;s <i>Howard the Duck</i>.</p>
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		<title>By: HP</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79832</link>
		<dc:creator>HP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 19:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79832</guid>
		<description>So, while you debate the worst-ever superhero movie, can I just remind that you all that Mario Bava&#039;s 1968 &quot;Danger: Diabolik&quot; is now out in a brand-new DVD? This adaptation of the Italian fumetti about the master criminal/anti-hero is by generally acclaimed as the finest comics-to-cinema adaptation ever made. 

I watched it for the first time a few weeks ago, and I&#039;m still getting thrills recalling it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So, while you debate the worst-ever superhero movie, can I just remind that you all that Mario Bava&#8217;s 1968 &#8220;Danger: Diabolik&#8221; is now out in a brand-new <span class="caps">DVD</span>? This adaptation of the Italian fumetti about the master criminal/anti-hero is by generally acclaimed as the finest comics-to-cinema adaptation ever made.</p>

	<p>I watched it for the first time a few weeks ago, and I&#8217;m still getting thrills recalling it.</p>
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		<title>By: Kragen Sitaker</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79817</link>
		<dc:creator>Kragen Sitaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79817</guid>
		<description>Please allow me, a non-academic, to bloviate upon the purpose of the academy for a moment.

Academic publishing, in books, journals, conferences, or whatever, is not intended to provoke immediate responses.  It&#039;s not a bad thing if it does (unless the immediate responses are &quot;this work is nonsense&quot;) --- it just isn&#039;t the point.  Academic publishing is intended to provoke further work, either publishable or practical.

Now, it may be that some of that future work can fit well into a blog comment box, but generally blog comments leave something to be desired in findability, citability (in the sense of having a stable URL and correct attribution), and permanence.  Who here can find all the blog comments they themselves have left?  But the worst indictment of blog comments, as a form for scholarly discussion, is the obsession of the form with recency and rapidity of response.  Comment on a post from six months ago, and your comment will never be read, by anyone.

I don&#039;t think that this would necessarily result in good work not getting done, or not getting published.  I suspect that many discussions in such a forum would culminate in publishable works.

So I agree that any academic publication should have associated with it some perennial public online symposium, but perhaps we have not yet found the correct format for that symposium.  At present, I&#039;m using e-mail mailing lists, and they have their severe deficiencies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Please allow me, a non-academic, to bloviate upon the purpose of the academy for a moment.</p>

	<p>Academic publishing, in books, journals, conferences, or whatever, is not intended to provoke immediate responses.  It&#8217;s not a bad thing if it does (unless the immediate responses are &#8220;this work is nonsense&#8221;)&#8212;- it just isn&#8217;t the point.  Academic publishing is intended to provoke further work, either publishable or practical.</p>

	<p>Now, it may be that some of that future work can fit well into a blog comment box, but generally blog comments leave something to be desired in findability, citability (in the sense of having a stable <span class="caps">URL</span> and correct attribution), and permanence.  Who here can find all the blog comments they themselves have left?  But the worst indictment of blog comments, as a form for scholarly discussion, is the obsession of the form with recency and rapidity of response.  Comment on a post from six months ago, and your comment will never be read, by anyone.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think that this would necessarily result in good work not getting done, or not getting published.  I suspect that many discussions in such a forum would culminate in publishable works.</p>

	<p>So I agree that any academic publication should have associated with it some perennial public online symposium, but perhaps we have not yet found the correct format for that symposium.  At present, I&#8217;m using e-mail mailing lists, and they have their severe deficiencies.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79811</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 17:13:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79811</guid>
		<description>Ooh, I&#039;d blocked out Steel.  Good one, Russell.  And I&#039;d maintain that Steel was (at least sometimes) a more-than-respectable superhero comic with a perfectly filmable premise; the movie doesn&#039;t have the excuse of intrinsically second-rate source material.

Masters of the Universe raises the usual genre-boundary questions.  Seems to me part of sword-and-sorcery, not superheroes, notwithstanding the Shazam! moment.  More Conan-for-kids than Superman.  (I suppose LXG doesn&#039;t quite count, either-- but the source material is an Alan Moore comic, not a toy-marketing cartoon.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ooh, I&#8217;d blocked out Steel.  Good one, Russell.  And I&#8217;d maintain that Steel was (at least sometimes) a more-than-respectable superhero comic with a perfectly filmable premise; the movie doesn&#8217;t have the excuse of intrinsically second-rate source material.</p>

	<p>Masters of the Universe raises the usual genre-boundary questions.  Seems to me part of sword-and-sorcery, not superheroes, notwithstanding the Shazam! moment.  More Conan-for-kids than Superman.  (I suppose <span class="caps">LXG</span> doesn&#8217;t quite count, either&#8212;but the source material is an Alan Moore comic, not a toy-marketing cartoon.)</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79804</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79804</guid>
		<description>Wait, wait! If we can include Harry&#039;s nomination of &lt;i&gt;Masters of the Universe&lt;/i&gt;, then surely we also must include &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120207/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Steel&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt;!

Or perhaps we ought to expand Jacob&#039;s reasonable exclusion of direct-to-video junk to include also any superhero movies whose source material is obviously second-rate (or worse) to begin with. In which case, we&#039;re back to his list of the usual suspects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wait, wait! If we can include Harry&#8217;s nomination of <i>Masters of the Universe</i>, then surely we also must include <i><a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120207/" rel="nofollow">Steel</a></i>!</p>

	<p>Or perhaps we ought to expand Jacob&#8217;s reasonable exclusion of direct-to-video junk to include also any superhero movies whose source material is obviously second-rate (or worse) to begin with. In which case, we&#8217;re back to his list of the usual suspects.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79801</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 16:21:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79801</guid>
		<description>Dolph Lundgren did worse than the Punisher: the stunning Masters of the Universe. But every cloud has a silver lining -- the interview he did when publicising it with Jonathan Ross sticks in my mind as one of the funniest things I&#039;ve ever seen in my life; Ross ridiculed him relentlessly, and Lundgren was too stupid and too humourless to realise. Fantastic. But, though I&#039;ve never seen those Batman movies, I simply don&#039;t believe they&#039;re as bad as Masters of the Universe (which I have seen).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Dolph Lundgren did worse than the Punisher: the stunning Masters of the Universe. But every cloud has a silver lining&#8212;the interview he did when publicising it with Jonathan Ross sticks in my mind as one of the funniest things I&#8217;ve ever seen in my life; Ross ridiculed him relentlessly, and Lundgren was too stupid and too humourless to realise. Fantastic. But, though I&#8217;ve never seen those Batman movies, I simply don&#8217;t believe they&#8217;re as bad as Masters of the Universe (which I have seen).</p>
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		<title>By: baa</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79792</link>
		<dc:creator>baa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 15:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79792</guid>
		<description>Jacob Levy&#039;s list of canonical examples is an excellent start. It also gives perspective. The new Fantastic Four movie? Compared to Batman and Robin, not so bad! 

I would argue that an important element in evaluation needs to be degree of difficulty. It&#039;s not a surprise, really, that a movie of &quot;The Punisher&quot; was bad. Putting the Batman franchise into an eight year coma, by contrast: very impressive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jacob Levy&#8217;s list of canonical examples is an excellent start. It also gives perspective. The new Fantastic Four movie? Compared to Batman and Robin, not so bad!</p>

	<p>I would argue that an important element in evaluation needs to be degree of difficulty. It&#8217;s not a surprise, really, that a movie of &#8220;The Punisher&#8221; was bad. Putting the Batman franchise into an eight year coma, by contrast: very impressive.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79791</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:45:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79791</guid>
		<description>Elektra is not as bad as the George Clooney Batman with the Mr. Freeze lackeys made up like hockey players and attacking people with hockey sticks and skating like Icescapades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Elektra is not as bad as the George Clooney Batman with the Mr. Freeze lackeys made up like hockey players and attacking people with hockey sticks and skating like Icescapades.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob T. Levy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79790</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob T. Levy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 14:19:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79790</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s an agreed-upon list of candidates, right?  Catwoman, Superman IV, Batman and Robin, some would say LXG, and apparently some would say Elektra.  I think Supergirl is an underappreciated disaster-- that is, it gets left off these lists just because people have forgotten it ever happened.

Excluding direct-to-video crap like the first Fantastic Four &quot;movie&quot;; but wasn&#039;t there a Dolph Lundgren (or someone similar) Punisher movie that went to theaters?

Haven&#039;t seen Elektra.  But I&#039;d be surprised if it were actually worse than all these.  I&#039;ll stick with Superman IV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s an agreed-upon list of candidates, right?  Catwoman, Superman IV, Batman and Robin, some would say <span class="caps">LXG</span>, and apparently some would say Elektra.  I think Supergirl is an underappreciated disaster&#8212;that is, it gets left off these lists just because people have forgotten it ever happened.</p>

	<p>Excluding direct-to-video crap like the first Fantastic Four &#8220;movie&#8221;; but wasn&#8217;t there a Dolph Lundgren (or someone similar) Punisher movie that went to theaters?</p>

	<p>Haven&#8217;t seen Elektra.  But I&#8217;d be surprised if it were actually worse than all these.  I&#8217;ll stick with Superman IV.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Arben Fox</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79785</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell Arben Fox</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 12:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79785</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If every publication goes with a big symposium, it follows that most academics have to devote most of their &#039;research&#039; efforts not to publishing their own work but to participating in symposia on the works of others. It is realistic to object that this tectonic shift in favor of ‘reviewing’, broadly conceived, just isn’t going to happen. But it may still be clarifying to ask, in a &#039;let&#039;s sketch our ideal Republic of ideas&#039; spirit: would it be better?&lt;/i&gt;

A short point, one you&#039;ve no doubt made somewhere else, John: it is entirely, and I think persuasively, arguable that much of the very best academic philosophy, political theory, and cultural commentary has arisen in the context of just such reviewing. Many thinkers best express themselves only while engaging with the expressions of another. Certainly that was the case for one of your intellectual heroes, Isaiah Berlin, as well as for one of mine, J.G. Herder.

I never saw &lt;i&gt;Superman IV&lt;/i&gt;, but I hear &lt;i&gt;Catwoman&lt;/i&gt;, which I also never saw, was really the bottom of the barrell.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If every publication goes with a big symposium, it follows that most academics have to devote most of their &#8216;research&#8217; efforts not to publishing their own work but to participating in symposia on the works of others. It is realistic to object that this tectonic shift in favor of &#8216;reviewing&#8217;, broadly conceived, just isn&#8217;t going to happen. But it may still be clarifying to ask, in a &#8216;let&#8217;s sketch our ideal Republic of ideas&#8217; spirit: would it be better?</i></p>

	<p>A short point, one you&#8217;ve no doubt made somewhere else, John: it is entirely, and I think persuasively, arguable that much of the very best academic philosophy, political theory, and cultural commentary has arisen in the context of just such reviewing. Many thinkers best express themselves only while engaging with the expressions of another. Certainly that was the case for one of your intellectual heroes, Isaiah Berlin, as well as for one of mine, J.G. Herder.</p>

	<p>I never saw <i>Superman IV</i>, but I hear <i>Catwoman</i>, which I also never saw, was really the bottom of the barrell.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79728</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 09:00:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79728</guid>
		<description>What about the last Superman one? Where he rids the world of nuclear weapons?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What about the last Superman one? Where he rids the world of nuclear weapons?</p>
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		<title>By: dsquared</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79669</link>
		<dc:creator>dsquared</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 08:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79669</guid>
		<description>The Batman film with Nicole Kidman in it was pretty terrible, and I heard that the one after that was worse, so I&#039;d guess that one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Batman film with Nicole Kidman in it was pretty terrible, and I heard that the one after that was worse, so I&#8217;d guess that one.</p>
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		<title>By: Farah</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79667</link>
		<dc:creator>Farah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 07:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79667</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A simple normative principle. Every scholarly book published in the humanities ...– should have it’s own lively blog comment box&lt;/i&gt;

Agreed. See &lt;a&gt;The Inter-Galactic Playground&lt;/a&gt; for a blog attached to a book project. Although in this case the blog is there as my research diary, it will stay up after the book is published.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A simple normative principle. Every scholarly book published in the humanities &#8230;&#8211; should have it&#8217;s own lively blog comment box</i></p>

	<p>Agreed. See <a>The Inter-Galactic Playground</a> for a blog attached to a book project. Although in this case the blog is there as my research diary, it will stay up after the book is published.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/12/massive-multi-thinker-online-reviews/comment-page-1/#comment-79662</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jul 2005 05:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3540#comment-79662</guid>
		<description>I still prefer &quot;Holbovian.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I still prefer &#8220;Holbovian.&#8221; </p>
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