Comments on: Another bite at the apple http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 16:54:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: J Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-81060 J Thomas Fri, 15 Jul 2005 22:53:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-81060 Charles, I think the idea is that lawyers and professors aren't risking their careers provided their side wins. And they are risking their careers if they back the losers. As for reputation, if they get a reputation for loyalty among the winners then it doesn't matter what their reputation is among the losers. It's a new world. I don't much like it but I don't get to choose what world I live in (unless I drink the kool-aid). I only get to choose how I behave in it. Charles, I think the idea is that lawyers and professors aren’t risking their careers provided their side wins. And they are risking their careers if they back the losers.

As for reputation, if they get a reputation for loyalty among the winners then it doesn’t matter what their reputation is among the losers.

It’s a new world. I don’t much like it but I don’t get to choose what world I live in (unless I drink the kool-aid). I only get to choose how I behave in it.

]]> By: Charles http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80936 Charles Fri, 15 Jul 2005 20:51:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80936 J Thomas, that's not Kool Aid. That's LSD. I can understand why political partisans who are not risking their professional reputations would purvey this sort of nonsense. But lawyers and professors do have careers and reputations. J Thomas, that’s not Kool Aid. That’s LSD.

I can understand why political partisans who are not risking their professional reputations would purvey this sort of nonsense. But lawyers and professors do have careers and reputations.

]]> By: J Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80873 J Thomas Fri, 15 Jul 2005 17:59:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80873 Charles, if you drink the koolade and suppose that important factions within the CIA were working against the war and against Bush's re-election, the they might file the criminal complaint without good reason. Nobody knows but them whether she was really NOC. (If Bush appointees go into the CIA and announce that she really wasn't a problem and fire the people who said she was, that would look bad. So they haven't done it yet, though they're likely to do it when the criminal proceedings look worse.) Once you believe that the CIA was the enemy and was tacitly allied with Saddam and the democrats against the USA and the republicans, then it all makes sense. Charles, if you drink the koolade and suppose that important factions within the CIA were working against the war and against Bush’s re-election, the they might file the criminal complaint without good reason. Nobody knows but them whether she was really NOC. (If Bush appointees go into the CIA and announce that she really wasn’t a problem and fire the people who said she was, that would look bad. So they haven’t done it yet, though they’re likely to do it when the criminal proceedings look worse.)

Once you believe that the CIA was the enemy and was tacitly allied with Saddam and the democrats against the USA and the republicans, then it all makes sense.

]]> By: Charles http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80839 Charles Fri, 15 Jul 2005 15:55:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80839 Steve has just managed to demonstrate how ethically bankrupt the right has become. The quote “My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity” is taken from a larger context, in which context it is clear that Wilson is saying that Novak's exposure ended his wife's clandestine career (as jake noted). The fault is not that of Steve, who seems to be a simple fool parroting what he is told by people slightly more clever. But Powerline is a lawyer and Instapundit is a professor. They are the ones who are ethically bankrupt. Steve, here's a small clue: the CIA would not have filed a criminal complaint unless Valerie Plame had been a NOC. There are ways not to be taken in by professional liars. One is to walk your way through the implications of a statement and see if it dissolves on contact with reality. This was even flimsier than Glen and Hindgasser's usual. Steve has just managed to demonstrate how ethically bankrupt the right has become.

The quote “My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity” is taken from a larger context, in which context it is clear that Wilson is saying that Novak’s exposure ended his wife’s clandestine career (as jake noted).

The fault is not that of Steve, who seems to be a simple fool parroting what he is told by people slightly more clever. But Powerline is a lawyer and Instapundit is a professor. They are the ones who are ethically bankrupt.

Steve, here’s a small clue: the CIA would not have filed a criminal complaint unless Valerie Plame had been a NOC. There are ways not to be taken in by professional liars. One is to walk your way through the implications of a statement and see if it dissolves on contact with reality.

This was even flimsier than Glen and Hindgasser’s usual.

]]> By: Njorl http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80824 Njorl Fri, 15 Jul 2005 14:58:32 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80824 Plame's group was tasked with analyzing any potential Iraq-Niger connection. During group discussions, Plame mentioned Joe Wilson's potential expertise, and usefulness, though not necessarily the idea of sending him to Niger. That decision was reached as a group. However, the group did not have the authority to send him to Niger. The group delegated Plame to ask Wilson if he'd be willing to go to Niger. That much is known and accepted by reasonable people. It is probable, though just supposition on my part, that the group also delegated to Plame the task of writing a memo to the authorizing entity to request the trip. Now, is that Plame requesting that her husband be sent on the trip? No. Wilson always maintained that it was his wife's group that recommended him for the trip. In sending the memo, she was simply acting as part of the group - the most logical choice for writing the memo. Wilson never claimed that his wife recused herself from all participation in the group's activities concerning him. Plame’s group was tasked with analyzing any potential Iraq-Niger connection. During group discussions, Plame mentioned Joe Wilson’s potential expertise, and usefulness, though not necessarily the idea of sending him to Niger. That decision was reached as a group. However, the group did not have the authority to send him to Niger. The group delegated Plame to ask Wilson if he’d be willing to go to Niger. That much is known and accepted by reasonable people. It is probable, though just supposition on my part, that the group also delegated to Plame the task of writing a memo to the authorizing entity to request the trip. Now, is that Plame requesting that her husband be sent on the trip?

No.

Wilson always maintained that it was his wife’s group that recommended him for the trip. In sending the memo, she was simply acting as part of the group – the most logical choice for writing the memo. Wilson never claimed that his wife recused herself from all participation in the group’s activities concerning him.

]]> By: Jake http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80791 Jake Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:50:43 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80791 Steve-- yeah, it would been easier to understand had Wilson phrased it, "My wife stopped being a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.” Of course, since you're not supposed to confirm or deny, he couldn't really say that. Steve—yeah, it would been easier to understand had Wilson phrased it, “My wife stopped being a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.” Of course, since you’re not supposed to confirm or deny, he couldn’t really say that.

]]> By: Stuart http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80774 Stuart Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:44:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80774 Congratulations, Ted. I'm now so thoroughly confused about this entire episode that I have absolutely no idea what happened. And I don't wish to spend another minute on it. Which leads me to believe that if a semi-news-junkie like me with a graduate degree can't follow the convolutions in this case without having to devote more time than he has available, most of the public can't and won't be bothered with it either. The press is in a frenzy because this affects their own inside baseball, but I don't think anyone cares anymore. Telling them Karl Rove plays hardball is like telling them Las Vegas is hot in the summertime. Congratulations, Ted. I’m now so thoroughly confused about this entire episode that I have absolutely no idea what happened. And I don’t wish to spend another minute on it. Which leads me to believe that if a semi-news-junkie like me with a graduate degree can’t follow the convolutions in this case without having to devote more time than he has available, most of the public can’t and won’t be bothered with it either. The press is in a frenzy because this affects their own inside baseball, but I don’t think anyone cares anymore. Telling them Karl Rove plays hardball is like telling them Las Vegas is hot in the summertime.

]]> By: Steve http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80702 Steve Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:09:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80702 "Here is Joseph Wilson himself, talking to Wolf Blitzer on CNN today: "My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity."* Hilarious. It didn't even take a supreme court announcement, or a full day, for me to be proven right. The story is over, folks. Try again. Steve * See Instapundit, or Powerline, or CNN itself. “Here is Joseph Wilson himself, talking to Wolf Blitzer on CNN today: “My wife was not a clandestine officer the day that Bob Novak blew her identity.”*

Hilarious. It didn’t even take a supreme court announcement, or a full day, for me to be proven right. The story is over, folks. Try again.

Steve

  • See Instapundit, or Powerline, or CNN itself.
]]> By: Jeremy Osner http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80691 Jeremy Osner Fri, 15 Jul 2005 11:49:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80691 Brian -- actually it was difficult to invade Iraq without killin' all those puppies. I swear! I had to do it if I was gonna invade Iraq! Brian—actually it was difficult to invade Iraq without killin’ all those puppies. I swear! I had to do it if I was gonna invade Iraq!

]]> By: Jack http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80683 Jack Fri, 15 Jul 2005 09:26:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80683 It's just a massive Chewbacca defense. There are several claims that don't really hold water which would be less effective if they did because more attention would be focussed on the relevance. His wife recommended him for the trip? So what? Was it a bad recommendation? Was he wrong? No. I think it is a form of wool gathering. Confronted by an awkward fact you can change your beliefs or accept the explanation that fits both the fact and your belief. A couple of iterations later and you can be somwhere quite bizarre. That doesn't mean that it won't work of course. It’s just a massive Chewbacca defense. There are several claims that don’t really hold water which would be less effective if they did because more attention would be focussed on the relevance.

His wife recommended him for the trip? So what? Was it a bad recommendation? Was he wrong? No.

I think it is a form of wool gathering. Confronted by an awkward fact you can change your beliefs or accept the explanation that fits both the fact and your belief. A couple of iterations later and you can be somwhere quite bizarre. That doesn’t mean that it won’t work of course.

]]> By: Tom Doyle http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80679 Tom Doyle Fri, 15 Jul 2005 08:52:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80679 Has the Bush administration disputed the accuracy of Wilson’s account of his trip? If there's no conflicting account attacking his credibility makes no sense. Has the Bush administration disputed the accuracy of Wilson’s account of his trip? If there’s no conflicting account attacking his credibility makes no sense.

]]> By: Brian http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80670 Brian Fri, 15 Jul 2005 05:37:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80670 <i>If invading iraq was the right thing to do, and if it was hard to invade iraq without falsifying evidence, then falsifying evidence was also the right thing to do.</i> And if invading Iraq was the right thing to do, and it was hard to invade Iraq without cancelling elections in America, I suppose cancelling elections would be the right thing to do. Democracy can be so <i>tiring</i>. If invading iraq was the right thing to do, and if it was hard to invade iraq without falsifying evidence, then falsifying evidence was also the right thing to do.

And if invading Iraq was the right thing to do, and it was hard to invade Iraq without cancelling elections in America, I suppose cancelling elections would be the right thing to do. Democracy can be so tiring.

]]> By: snuh http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80569 snuh Fri, 15 Jul 2005 02:04:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80569 all right, so maybe she went as far as to recommend him. so what? presumably the people she recommended him to still made their own decision. all right, so maybe she went as far as to recommend him. so what? presumably the people she recommended him to still made their own decision.

]]> By: Steve J. http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80565 Steve J. Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:21:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80565 <i> 19 STEADY EDDY - "That’s the same debunked INR memo that Steve j. cited, above, in his quote from Sen. Roberts’ half-baked report."</i> No it isn't. I did not quote from the appendix. What I quoted gives some evidence that the prime morivation for Wilson's trip was questions from the VP. OK? 19 STEADY EDDY - “That’s the same debunked INR memo that Steve j. cited, above, in his quote from Sen. Roberts’ half-baked report.”

No it isn’t. I did not quote from the appendix.
What I quoted gives some evidence that the prime morivation for Wilson’s trip was questions from the VP.
OK?

]]> By: Ginger Yellow http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/comment-page-2/#comment-80552 Ginger Yellow Thu, 14 Jul 2005 23:53:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/14/another-bite-at-the-apple/#comment-80552 j thomas, that's pretty much exactly John Gibson's idea, except with a medal for Rove chucked in. j thomas, that’s pretty much exactly John Gibson’s idea, except with a medal for Rove chucked in.

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