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	<title>Comments on: A Friend in the Family</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<item>
		<title>By: moni</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-84477</link>
		<dc:creator>moni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 11:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-84477</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;but the whole point of the mythologizing by Coppola, Scorcese, et al. is our ambiguous response. The Pleasures and Dangers of Community.&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s true, but that&#039;s also because in general that mythologising of gangsters makes good fiction, good drama, good cinema or tv, with great roles for actors. Especially when the gangsters are built up to be epic figures and the focus is so much more on family and personal relationships, so that those can become symbolic in their own, regardless of the mafia context.

That kind of dramatisation has nothing to do with the reality of the Sicilian mafia and what it represents to an Italian audience, though. Even in the realm of dramatisation alone, if you see Italian films or tv series (&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086779/combined&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;La piovra&lt;/a&gt;) made about the mafia and set in Sicily, you&#039;d notice a huge difference with the Hollywood films. The only mythologising is for the cops and magistrates, they are the heroes, together with other ordinary people who suffer the consequences. Like, innocent victims of terrorist-like bombings and assassination plots on politicians or judges, which were not what the mafia did in the US. So the mythologising of the mafia is made impossible by that kind of real context. The settings are a lot less lush and glamorous. There is a lot more space for politics and the mafia corruption of politics. It&#039;s all a lot more drab and realistic and tragic and ultimately unwatchable because it&#039;s so depressing.  Just so it&#039;s clear, I&#039;m not suggesting there is a different &quot;moral judgment&quot; on the mafia, just a different history of the mafia in two very different countries, and a different approach in fictional representations of it. Also, different cinema and tv industries.

A series like the Sopranos would have been unthinkable if set in Italy, because it is so detached from the actual context of the Italian mafia. (And, well, because no one makes tv that good in Italy...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>but the whole point of the mythologizing by Coppola, Scorcese, et al. is our ambiguous response. The Pleasures and Dangers of Community.</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s true, but that&#8217;s also because in general that mythologising of gangsters makes good fiction, good drama, good cinema or tv, with great roles for actors. Especially when the gangsters are built up to be epic figures and the focus is so much more on family and personal relationships, so that those can become symbolic in their own, regardless of the mafia context.</p>

	<p>That kind of dramatisation has nothing to do with the reality of the Sicilian mafia and what it represents to an Italian audience, though. Even in the realm of dramatisation alone, if you see Italian films or tv series (<a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086779/combined" rel="nofollow">La piovra</a>) made about the mafia and set in Sicily, you&#8217;d notice a huge difference with the Hollywood films. The only mythologising is for the cops and magistrates, they are the heroes, together with other ordinary people who suffer the consequences. Like, innocent victims of terrorist-like bombings and assassination plots on politicians or judges, which were not what the mafia did in the US. So the mythologising of the mafia is made impossible by that kind of real context. The settings are a lot less lush and glamorous. There is a lot more space for politics and the mafia corruption of politics. It&#8217;s all a lot more drab and realistic and tragic and ultimately unwatchable because it&#8217;s so depressing.  Just so it&#8217;s clear, I&#8217;m not suggesting there is a different &#8220;moral judgment&#8221; on the mafia, just a different history of the mafia in two very different countries, and a different approach in fictional representations of it. Also, different cinema and tv industries.</p>

	<p>A series like the Sopranos would have been unthinkable if set in Italy, because it is so detached from the actual context of the Italian mafia. (And, well, because no one makes tv that good in Italy&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83993</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 03:05:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83993</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m writing a paper with Jack Knight at the moment which tries to address the underlying question that seems to be dividing people here - i.e. when is reliance on informal trust etc rather than formal institutions &#039;bad,&#039; and when is it &#039;good.&#039; Short and oversimplified answer is that it depends on the power relations that are instantiated in the informal relations in question. Relatively egalitarian relations a la Emilia-Romagna and the red belt, good. Strong power asymmetries and informal relations, bad. Carlo Trigilia&#039;s and Carlo Bagnasco&#039;s work on the red and white zones is excellent (Grande Partiti e Piccole Imprese), also Trigilia&#039;s work on economic development in the South (the latter isn&#039;t translated into English though afik, and the former is available in bits and pieces in English, and also in a French portmanteau edition)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m writing a paper with Jack Knight at the moment which tries to address the underlying question that seems to be dividing people here &#8211; i.e. when is reliance on informal trust etc rather than formal institutions &#8216;bad,&#8217; and when is it &#8216;good.&#8217; Short and oversimplified answer is that it depends on the power relations that are instantiated in the informal relations in question. Relatively egalitarian relations a la Emilia-Romagna and the red belt, good. Strong power asymmetries and informal relations, bad. Carlo Trigilia&#8217;s and Carlo Bagnasco&#8217;s work on the red and white zones is excellent (Grande Partiti e Piccole Imprese), also Trigilia&#8217;s work on economic development in the South (the latter isn&#8217;t translated into English though afik, and the former is available in bits and pieces in English, and also in a French portmanteau edition)</p>
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		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83903</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 21:13:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83903</guid>
		<description>No goal can be considered rational simply because one has a rational means to get it.  The means of science are rational. The goals of most science are as absurdist as the goals of mountan climbing.
The market isn&#039;t blackjack, it&#039;s poker, and life is sloppy. You may be sick of all the Goomba Johnny bullshit- I lived in a Gambino neighborhood for 20 years- but the whole point of the mythologizing by Coppola, Scorcese, et al.  is our ambiguous response. The Pleasures and Dangers of Community.

You represent the Robert Parker school of wine and life.
Your paradise sounds like hell to me, and illogical as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No goal can be considered rational simply because one has a rational means to get it.  The means of science are rational. The goals of most science are as absurdist as the goals of mountan climbing.<br />
The market isn&#8217;t blackjack, it&#8217;s poker, and life is sloppy. You may be sick of all the Goomba Johnny bullshit- I lived in a Gambino neighborhood for 20 years- but the whole point of the mythologizing by Coppola, Scorcese, et al.  is our ambiguous response. The Pleasures and Dangers of Community.</p>

	<p>You represent the Robert Parker school of wine and life.<br />
Your paradise sounds like hell to me, and illogical as well.</p>
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		<title>By: H. E. Baber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83898</link>
		<dc:creator>H. E. Baber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 20:10:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83898</guid>
		<description>Personal networking is never entirely benign--it&#039;s time-consuming, stressful and inefficient and perpetuates arbitrary privilege. We put up with it when we have to but if we&#039;re right-thinking liberals we do all we can to minimize it by installing impersonal mechanisms, formal procedures and merit based systems. There&#039;s no line to draw--it&#039;s always a matter of weighing costs: how much are we willing to pay to promote fairness and transparency, suppress prejudice and provide information so that people can make rational, informed decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Personal networking is never entirely benign&#8212;it&#8217;s time-consuming, stressful and inefficient and perpetuates arbitrary privilege. We put up with it when we have to but if we&#8217;re right-thinking liberals we do all we can to minimize it by installing impersonal mechanisms, formal procedures and merit based systems. There&#8217;s no line to draw&#8212;it&#8217;s always a matter of weighing costs: how much are we willing to pay to promote fairness and transparency, suppress prejudice and provide information so that people can make rational, informed decisions.</p>
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		<title>By: Antoni Jaume</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83897</link>
		<dc:creator>Antoni Jaume</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83897</guid>
		<description>serial catowner, my pet theory of the mafia is that it is an effect of the Normand domination. Not so long ago I read somewhere on the web that Iceland in its first times had a system of justice that reminded me more of the mafia rule than anything else. The Roman latifundia, on the other side, existed too in other parts of the Roman empire, which are mafia free up to the date.

DSW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>serial catowner, my pet theory of the mafia is that it is an effect of the Normand domination. Not so long ago I read somewhere on the web that Iceland in its first times had a system of justice that reminded me more of the mafia rule than anything else. The Roman latifundia, on the other side, existed too in other parts of the Roman empire, which are mafia free up to the date.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">DSW</span></p>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83890</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 19:04:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83890</guid>
		<description>The mafia, in whatever language, can be seen as a parallel government.  In Sicily the social roots of the mafia undoubtedly reach back to the Roman use of labor contracters on the &lt;i&gt;latifundia&lt;/i&gt;.  Even the most cursory glance at Sicily&#039;s history will reveal that Sicily was often nominally ruled by essentially foreign &#039;nobility&#039; who seldom, or never, visited the island.

It is interesting to note that even presumably well-educated commenters on this thread find it hard to tell where benign personal networking ends and malignant favoritism begins.

The legitimate state and the mafia stuggle for monopolies in violence, the rule of law, and the division of the loot.  As so often in human affairs, the end result is a continuing set of compromises, unless, of course, one side should become fatally weakened by the persistent attacks of the other.

Italy, a state formed by revolution that, eventually, had a king to receive Mussolini&#039;s resignation, has a history of parallel governments and urban disorder to charm any historian.  Considering the continuing influence of parallel governments, it might be worth studying just how Mussolini was able to get the upper hand of the mafia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The mafia, in whatever language, can be seen as a parallel government.  In Sicily the social roots of the mafia undoubtedly reach back to the Roman use of labor contracters on the <i>latifundia</i>.  Even the most cursory glance at Sicily&#8217;s history will reveal that Sicily was often nominally ruled by essentially foreign &#8216;nobility&#8217; who seldom, or never, visited the island.</p>

	<p>It is interesting to note that even presumably well-educated commenters on this thread find it hard to tell where benign personal networking ends and malignant favoritism begins.</p>

	<p>The legitimate state and the mafia stuggle for monopolies in violence, the rule of law, and the division of the loot.  As so often in human affairs, the end result is a continuing set of compromises, unless, of course, one side should become fatally weakened by the persistent attacks of the other.</p>

	<p>Italy, a state formed by revolution that, eventually, had a king to receive Mussolini&#8217;s resignation, has a history of parallel governments and urban disorder to charm any historian.  Considering the continuing influence of parallel governments, it might be worth studying just how Mussolini was able to get the upper hand of the mafia.</p>
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		<title>By: Yusuf Smith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83866</link>
		<dc:creator>Yusuf Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83866</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;“Mafiosita” lurks within me, and it came out powerfully last summer. I was at our family estate in Sicily.&lt;/em&gt;

Shouldn&#039;t there be an accent over that last &quot;a&quot;?  The -ita ending had me thinking it was a Spanish or Portuguese feminine diminuitive - i.e. a &quot;little gangstress&quot;, if you&#039;ll excuse the coinage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>&#8220;Mafiosita&#8221; lurks within me, and it came out powerfully last summer. I was at our family estate in Sicily.</em></p>

	<p>Shouldn&#8217;t there be an accent over that last &#8220;a&#8221;?  The -ita ending had me thinking it was a Spanish or Portuguese feminine diminuitive &#8211; i.e. a &#8220;little gangstress&#8221;, if you&#8217;ll excuse the coinage.</p>
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		<title>By: cm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83821</link>
		<dc:creator>cm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 16:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83821</guid>
		<description>I feel reminded of the area of professional services and the crafts. When there is strict regulation, and professionals have to submit to exams and be licensed, you can assume minimal standards and go for &quot;impersonal&quot; service. (Reference is still used as an additional quality control.) Where regulation and licensing standards are weak or absent, people go almost exclusively by reference.

It relates to how strictly business and the whole society is run by the state vs. &quot;freedom of enterprise&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I feel reminded of the area of professional services and the crafts. When there is strict regulation, and professionals have to submit to exams and be licensed, you can assume minimal standards and go for &#8220;impersonal&#8221; service. (Reference is still used as an additional quality control.) Where regulation and licensing standards are weak or absent, people go almost exclusively by reference.</p>

	<p>It relates to how strictly business and the whole society is run by the state vs. &#8220;freedom of enterprise&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: moni</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83777</link>
		<dc:creator>moni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 15:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83777</guid>
		<description>&#039;Had I been in London, I would have gone straight to the local hospital.&#039;

Maybe she&#039;d have gone straight to the local hospital even in Sicily, if she hadn&#039;t been a wealthy estate owner with servants and accustomed to getting favours from friends?

Really, I think that reaction says more about her own privileged position than the mafia or &#039;raccomandazioni&#039; mentality. After all this was a small emergency. Even a mafioso would seek favours from friends for bigger things than their children cutting their hands, I&#039;d imagine. So I think even that final nugget is a little too impressionistic.

I live in Italy, though not in Sicily, but I am familiar with the region and would be wary of conflating different things there. First, corruption and favoritism are present in many other parts of Italy too, depending, especially at higher levels of power. They don&#039;t necessarily have to do with the Sicilian mafia or that kind of organised crime. Secondly, going through friends to get something done is not necessarily to do with the mafia or corruption, either.

This sort of social networking can have either good or bad aspects, indeed, the bad ones include combined forms of age discrimination and nepotism. I think Tobias Jones described it rather well. There can be perfectly normal, non-dodgy forms of &quot;raccomandazioni&quot;, such as happen anywhere. Silliest example: you need a plumber or a builder, a friend knows someone who&#039;s good, they recommend it to you. That&#039;s quite different from pulling strings to get someone a privileged job in state tv, just because they&#039;re a relative or friend of someone who has political leverage. So I don&#039;t think the dividing line is between personal and impersonal networks. It&#039;s between regular and corrupt relations; between normal social contacts and getting actual undeserved privileges via abuses of power. 

I don&#039;t know if emergency care is so bad in Sicily that everyone would distrust it, I find that hard to believe. Perhaps, again, it&#039;s the author&#039;s privileged position, to be automatically distrustful of state hospitals? Still, I think it&#039;s very callous to describe as &quot;mafiosita&quot; something so harmless as that anecdote describes.

The kind of distrust the mafia thrives on is not simple distrust for &#039;impersonal&#039; relations or institutions, it&#039;s distrust for public authority and politicians and law enforcement, but that&#039;s also because where the mafia thrives, it does so by corrupting local politicians and authorities and law enforcement, so it&#039;s a big vicious circle. Besides, it thrives much more on blackmail than distrust.  That&#039;s where the pessimism comes from. It is not so much about people&#039;s mentalities, but more about a closed system designed to perpetuate itself.

Sadly, both the mafia and generalised corruption are not a problem that started or got worse with Berlusconi. Wish it were so. It&#039;d be easier to uproot. It&#039;d been going on for decades, when the former Christian Democrats were in power.  The &#039;red&#039; areas of Italy that were locally governed for decades by (former) communists, on the other hand, thrived on the cooperative system, with no or next to no corruption, and they had the most efficient public administration and services.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8216;Had I been in London, I would have gone straight to the local hospital.&#8217;</p>

	<p>Maybe she&#8217;d have gone straight to the local hospital even in Sicily, if she hadn&#8217;t been a wealthy estate owner with servants and accustomed to getting favours from friends?</p>

	<p>Really, I think that reaction says more about her own privileged position than the mafia or &#8216;raccomandazioni&#8217; mentality. After all this was a small emergency. Even a mafioso would seek favours from friends for bigger things than their children cutting their hands, I&#8217;d imagine. So I think even that final nugget is a little too impressionistic.</p>

	<p>I live in Italy, though not in Sicily, but I am familiar with the region and would be wary of conflating different things there. First, corruption and favoritism are present in many other parts of Italy too, depending, especially at higher levels of power. They don&#8217;t necessarily have to do with the Sicilian mafia or that kind of organised crime. Secondly, going through friends to get something done is not necessarily to do with the mafia or corruption, either.</p>

	<p>This sort of social networking can have either good or bad aspects, indeed, the bad ones include combined forms of age discrimination and nepotism. I think Tobias Jones described it rather well. There can be perfectly normal, non-dodgy forms of &#8220;raccomandazioni&#8221;, such as happen anywhere. Silliest example: you need a plumber or a builder, a friend knows someone who&#8217;s good, they recommend it to you. That&#8217;s quite different from pulling strings to get someone a privileged job in state tv, just because they&#8217;re a relative or friend of someone who has political leverage. So I don&#8217;t think the dividing line is between personal and impersonal networks. It&#8217;s between regular and corrupt relations; between normal social contacts and getting actual undeserved privileges via abuses of power.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know if emergency care is so bad in Sicily that everyone would distrust it, I find that hard to believe. Perhaps, again, it&#8217;s the author&#8217;s privileged position, to be automatically distrustful of state hospitals? Still, I think it&#8217;s very callous to describe as &#8220;mafiosita&#8221; something so harmless as that anecdote describes.</p>

	<p>The kind of distrust the mafia thrives on is not simple distrust for &#8216;impersonal&#8217; relations or institutions, it&#8217;s distrust for public authority and politicians and law enforcement, but that&#8217;s also because where the mafia thrives, it does so by corrupting local politicians and authorities and law enforcement, so it&#8217;s a big vicious circle. Besides, it thrives much more on blackmail than distrust.  That&#8217;s where the pessimism comes from. It is not so much about people&#8217;s mentalities, but more about a closed system designed to perpetuate itself.</p>

	<p>Sadly, both the mafia and generalised corruption are not a problem that started or got worse with Berlusconi. Wish it were so. It&#8217;d be easier to uproot. It&#8217;d been going on for decades, when the former Christian Democrats were in power.  The &#8216;red&#8217; areas of Italy that were locally governed for decades by (former) communists, on the other hand, thrived on the cooperative system, with no or next to no corruption, and they had the most efficient public administration and services.</p>
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		<title>By: H. E. Baber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83772</link>
		<dc:creator>H. E. Baber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 14:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83772</guid>
		<description>I grew up with these &quot;informal networks&quot; in northern New Jersey--the Sopranos is an accurate picture. There were no-go areas and 1000 unwritten rules. The assumption was that everything was corrupt (and that was ok), all city jobs were bought, official procedures were just window-dressing, public facilities were just for the black underclass, and that the very ideas of fairness, impartiality and basic honesty were sugary myths for children--everyone took care of their own. The mob was viewed as an inevitable and essential part of civic life: who else was there to run the numbers game at the local candy store or the unions who saw to it that young guys whose grandparents came from the right part of Italy got good construction jobs?

When I went away to college in the midwest I thought I&#039;d died and gone to heaven to be out of all that. I was furious when other students, who&#039;d never seen that system from the inside romanticized that world and condemned the sterility and hypocrisy of  upper middle class Anglo society. Hypocrisy is a great moral leap forward: it assumes that you live in circumstances where fairness, impartiality and honesty are valued and feel guilty or, minimally, ashamed when you behave badly.

I still have a visceral reaction when communitarians get the warm fuzzies for the kind of &quot;traditional society&quot; in which I grew up. Ask almost anyone who grew up in that kind of world and you&#039;ll get the same answer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I grew up with these &#8220;informal networks&#8221; in northern New Jersey&#8212;the Sopranos is an accurate picture. There were no-go areas and 1000 unwritten rules. The assumption was that everything was corrupt (and that was ok), all city jobs were bought, official procedures were just window-dressing, public facilities were just for the black underclass, and that the very ideas of fairness, impartiality and basic honesty were sugary myths for children&#8212;everyone took care of their own. The mob was viewed as an inevitable and essential part of civic life: who else was there to run the numbers game at the local candy store or the unions who saw to it that young guys whose grandparents came from the right part of Italy got good construction jobs?</p>

	<p>When I went away to college in the midwest I thought I&#8217;d died and gone to heaven to be out of all that. I was furious when other students, who&#8217;d never seen that system from the inside romanticized that world and condemned the sterility and hypocrisy of  upper middle class Anglo society. Hypocrisy is a great moral leap forward: it assumes that you live in circumstances where fairness, impartiality and honesty are valued and feel guilty or, minimally, ashamed when you behave badly.</p>

	<p>I still have a visceral reaction when communitarians get the warm fuzzies for the kind of &#8220;traditional society&#8221; in which I grew up. Ask almost anyone who grew up in that kind of world and you&#8217;ll get the same answer.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83762</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 11:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83762</guid>
		<description>My immediate reaction, when living in either Naples or Moscow (as I have), would have been the same as Hornby’s. When in the US, UK or Portugal I wouldn’t dream of trying to use a personal network like that, I would expect the impersonal one to work better.

Not a shattering insight I know.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My immediate reaction, when living in either Naples or Moscow (as I have), would have been the same as Hornby&#8217;s. When in the US, UK or Portugal I wouldn&#8217;t dream of trying to use a personal network like that, I would expect the impersonal one to work better.</p>

	<p>Not a shattering insight I know.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83663</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 05:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83663</guid>
		<description>Having lived for some years in a place where you really need &quot;informal networks&quot; to get by I can say that I find it both less efficient and more annoying.  And, it seems quit clearly to be one of the things holding back economic development in that place as compared to others in the former soviet union.  Most people I know who have left it and come to the US or Western Europe also agree that while the informal system served a purpose at one point it&#039;s vastly more of a drag than a plus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having lived for some years in a place where you really need &#8220;informal networks&#8221; to get by I can say that I find it both less efficient and more annoying.  And, it seems quit clearly to be one of the things holding back economic development in that place as compared to others in the former soviet union.  Most people I know who have left it and come to the US or Western Europe also agree that while the informal system served a purpose at one point it&#8217;s vastly more of a drag than a plus.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83661</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 02:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83661</guid>
		<description>And why does a dash become a strikethrough with Wordpress!?
oy...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And why does a dash become a strikethrough with Wordpress!?<br />
oy&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: seth edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83660</link>
		<dc:creator>seth edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83660</guid>
		<description>Henry, I&#039;m not defending the Mafia against Gambetta. I trust you when you say his essay is  a classic. On that note I rememnber reading something about a book on southern Italy and the transmission the psychological traits -the neuroses- of corruption through generations.  You might know it. I had the title scrawed on the wall in my studio for years but I was lazy and never bought a copy. But that concerns one sort of corrupt social coercion, and FT type globophiles and libertarians would argue against any form of it.  
Community is coercive, or it doesn&#039;t exist. There&#039;s a problem there that I like. About the situation in Sicily itself I have no argument.  (as I said, I might have been a little glib.)  It&#039;s a mess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Henry, I&#8217;m not defending the Mafia against Gambetta. I trust you when you say his essay is  a classic. On that note I rememnber reading something about a book on southern Italy and the transmission the psychological traits <del>the neuroses</del> of corruption through generations.  You might know it. I had the title scrawed on the wall in my studio for years but I was lazy and never bought a copy. But that concerns one sort of corrupt social coercion, and FT type globophiles and libertarians would argue against any form of it.<br />
Community is coercive, or it doesn&#8217;t exist. There&#8217;s a problem there that I like. About the situation in Sicily itself I have no argument.  (as I said, I might have been a little glib.)  It&#8217;s a mess.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Bridgman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/a-friend-in-the-family/comment-page-1/#comment-83658</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Bridgman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jul 2005 01:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3588#comment-83658</guid>
		<description>Well, Robert Gagnon, whoever he is, is pretty clearly nuts.

I&#039;m gonna side with Henry on this.  I think it&#039;s particularly clear if you look at it from a Weberian perspective.  These powerful social networks prevent the formal rationalization of social structures--or perhaps, more precisely, provides an alternative, far less effective rationalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, Robert Gagnon, whoever he is, is pretty clearly nuts.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m gonna side with Henry on this.  I think it&#8217;s particularly clear if you look at it from a Weberian perspective.  These powerful social networks prevent the formal rationalization of social structures&#8212;or perhaps, more precisely, provides an alternative, far less effective rationalization.</p>
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