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	<title>Comments on: Ideology and Integrity</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Deltoid &#187; Duncan Maltz letter to the AEI</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84686</link>
		<dc:creator>Deltoid &#187; Duncan Maltz letter to the AEI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 18:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84686</guid>
		<description>[...] Keiran Healy observes that the U Chicago Federalist Society attacked with integrity when Lott libeled Donohue. In the comments, Michael Maltz posts the letter that he sent with Dudley Duncan to the AEI about Lott and the reply they received: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Keiran Healy observes that the U Chicago Federalist Society attacked with integrity when Lott libeled Donohue. In the comments, Michael Maltz posts the letter that he sent with Dudley Duncan to the <span class="caps">AEI</span> about Lott and the reply they received: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Anderson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84556</link>
		<dc:creator>Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 16:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84556</guid>
		<description>Jadegold, you can&#039;t seriously be arguing that it&#039;s a fact that Belleisles didn&#039;t mean for his book to have any policy implications, just because he &lt;i&gt;said so in his foreword?&lt;/i&gt;

I mean, come now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jadegold, you can&#8217;t seriously be arguing that it&#8217;s a fact that Belleisles didn&#8217;t mean for his book to have any policy implications, just because he <i>said so in his foreword?</i></p>

	<p>I mean, come now.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84309</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84309</guid>
		<description>BTW, in response to the charge(levied by Jet) that Bellesiles had some powerful influence on gun control court cases, the judge in that case referenced Bellesiles WRT George Washington&#039;s disdain for civilian militias.

And in this instance, Bellesilies was absolutely right. Washington&#039;s papers and letters demonstrate he had a very jaundiced view of the militias of his day. He considered them ineffective, ill-trained, ill-disciplined, and unreliable in protracted campaigns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, in response to the charge(levied by Jet) that Bellesiles had some powerful influence on gun control court cases, the judge in that case referenced Bellesiles <span class="caps">WRT </span>George Washington&#8217;s disdain for civilian militias.</p>

	<p>And in this instance, Bellesilies was absolutely right. Washington&#8217;s papers and letters demonstrate he had a very jaundiced view of the militias of his day. He considered them ineffective, ill-trained, ill-disciplined, and unreliable in protracted campaigns.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84308</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84308</guid>
		<description>By the by, many Bellesiles&#039; bashers seem to believe Bellesiles had some powerful influence on court cases.  This is most certainly overstated; in the case cited by Jet above, the judge quoted Bellesiles WRT George Washington&#039;s disdain for civilian militias.

And Bellesiles was most certainly correct; Geo Washington had a very jaundiced view of the militias in his day.  Washington&#039;s papers indicate he found the militias ill-trained, ill-disciplined and unreliable during protracted campaigns.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>By the by, many Bellesiles&#8217; bashers seem to believe Bellesiles had some powerful influence on court cases.  This is most certainly overstated; in the case cited by Jet above, the judge quoted Bellesiles <span class="caps">WRT </span>George Washington&#8217;s disdain for civilian militias.</p>

	<p>And Bellesiles was most certainly correct; Geo Washington had a very jaundiced view of the militias in his day.  Washington&#8217;s papers indicate he found the militias ill-trained, ill-disciplined and unreliable during protracted campaigns.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84307</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 02:27:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84307</guid>
		<description>Sorry, Brett, but I find your argument disingenuous; Bellesiles specifically stated in his forward that he wasn&#039;t intending any commentary on the 2A or public policy.  Generally, most every work of advocacy will specifically state what it is trying to prove or demonstrate.

But, again, this is so much deflection away from the issue of Lott, who continues to be gainfully employed, despite a record of fraud and general weirdness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry, Brett, but I find your argument disingenuous; Bellesiles specifically stated in his forward that he wasn&#8217;t intending any commentary on the 2A or public policy.  Generally, most every work of advocacy will specifically state what it is trying to prove or demonstrate.</p>

	<p>But, again, this is so much deflection away from the issue of Lott, who continues to be gainfully employed, despite a record of fraud and general weirdness.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84302</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84302</guid>
		<description>Well, Jade, you can hardly claim that Bellesiles &lt;i&gt;wasn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; devious, given the lies piled upon lies in his book. I suppose you could argue that he was simply oblivious to the impact his book would have, if taken seriously.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, Jade, you can hardly claim that Bellesiles <i>wasn&#8217;t</i> devious, given the lies piled upon lies in his book. I suppose you could argue that he was simply oblivious to the impact his book would have, if taken seriously.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Lambert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84301</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Lambert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Jul 2005 01:22:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84301</guid>
		<description>Lott&#039;s work does seem to have an effect on legislation. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://timlambert.org/2003/10/1014b/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for an example.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lott&#8217;s work does seem to have an effect on legislation. See <a href="http://timlambert.org/2003/10/1014b/" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an example.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84191</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84191</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So while Lott has done some crappy work, I don’t see federal circuit courts being swayed by his “research”. It took the farg’n Supreme Court to overrule Bellesiles’ B.S.&lt;/i&gt;

Of course, the federal court was hardly swayed by Bellesiles.  Bellesiles was a single footnote out of  many dozen.

At least Bellesiles is real, live person.  How many times have gun advocates cited Theodore Fiddleman in cases before the court?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So while Lott has done some crappy work, I don&#8217;t see federal circuit courts being swayed by his &#8220;research&#8221;. It took the farg&#8217;n Supreme Court to overrule Bellesiles&#8217; B.S.</i></p>

	<p>Of course, the federal court was hardly swayed by Bellesiles.  Bellesiles was a single footnote out of  many dozen.</p>

	<p>At least Bellesiles is real, live person.  How many times have gun advocates cited Theodore Fiddleman in cases before the court?</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84189</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 19:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84189</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Just another aspect of the fraud. &lt;/i&gt;

I see.  How devious of Bellesiles to specifically write his work wasn&#039;t intended to support or not support public policy--when he actually had that very intention.

Thank goodness for mindreading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Just another aspect of the fraud. </i></p>

	<p>I see.  How devious of Bellesiles to specifically write his work wasn&#8217;t intended to support or not support public policy&#8212;when he actually had that very intention.</p>

	<p>Thank goodness for mindreading.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84184</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 18:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84184</guid>
		<description>Whether Bellesiles meant for his book to be political or not, it did wind up getting cited in legislation and at least one &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1039054410124&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;very important court case&lt;/a&gt;.  

So while Lott has done some crappy work, I don&#039;t see federal circuit courts being swayed by his &quot;research&quot;.  It took the farg&#039;n Supreme Court to overrule Bellesiles&#039; B.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Whether Bellesiles meant for his book to be political or not, it did wind up getting cited in legislation and at least one <a href="http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1039054410124" rel="nofollow">very important court case</a>.</p>

	<p>So while Lott has done some crappy work, I don&#8217;t see federal circuit courts being swayed by his &#8220;research&#8221;.  It took the farg&#8217;n Supreme Court to overrule Bellesiles&#8217; B.S.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84180</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84180</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;If you read Bellesiles’ forward, it very clearly states his book was not intended to argue against or for issues concerning the 2A and/or public policy.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Just another aspect of the fraud. Does anyone seriously believe we&#039;d even have heard of Bellesiles, if he&#039;d written on the frequency of butter churn ownership? That he&#039;d have gotten the Bancroft prize? Been seized upon as support for anti-gun court rulings?

That book was meant to undercut the individual rights interpretation of the 2nd amendment, by lending the impression that there was no culture of firearms ownership in this country until after the Civil war. And if he&#039;d had no ax to grind, why didn&#039;t he just write the truth, instead of making things up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;If you read Bellesiles&#8217; forward, it very clearly states his book was not intended to argue against or for issues concerning the 2A and/or public policy.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Just another aspect of the fraud. Does anyone seriously believe we&#8217;d even have heard of Bellesiles, if he&#8217;d written on the frequency of butter churn ownership? That he&#8217;d have gotten the Bancroft prize? Been seized upon as support for anti-gun court rulings?</p>

	<p>That book was meant to undercut the individual rights interpretation of the 2nd amendment, by lending the impression that there was no culture of firearms ownership in this country until after the Civil war. And if he&#8217;d had no ax to grind, why didn&#8217;t he just write the truth, instead of making things up?</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84176</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 16:15:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84176</guid>
		<description>Brett:  If you read Bellesiles&#039; forward, it very clearly states his book was not intended to argue against or for issues concerning the 2A and/or public policy.  And, if you think about it, how does knowing what percentage of inhabitants were gunowners in Contra Costa County in the 1880s have any bearing on any current public policy?

OTOH, Lott continues to provide &quot;expert&quot; testimony to legislatures on behalf of proposed CCW and gun-related legislation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett:  If you read Bellesiles&#8217; forward, it very clearly states his book was not intended to argue against or for issues concerning the 2A and/or public policy.  And, if you think about it, how does knowing what percentage of inhabitants were gunowners in Contra Costa County in the 1880s have any bearing on any current public policy?</p>

	<p><span class="caps">OTOH</span>, Lott continues to provide &#8220;expert&#8221; testimony to legislatures on behalf of proposed <span class="caps">CCW</span> and gun-related legislation.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84171</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 15:29:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84171</guid>
		<description>Jade, if you think Bellesiles work wasn&#039;t intended to have public policy implications, you&#039;re more naive than I can credit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jade, if you think Bellesiles work wasn&#8217;t intended to have public policy implications, you&#8217;re more naive than I can credit.</p>
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		<title>By: Jadegold</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84165</link>
		<dc:creator>Jadegold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 14:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84165</guid>
		<description>Brett: All I can say is that you haven&#039;t followed the controversy surrounding Lott if you believe Lott&#039;s &#039;problems&#039; and &#039;errors&#039; were &#039;subtle&#039; and in &#039;the margins.&#039; There are no shortages of instances where Lott has been caught manipulating data and/or methodologies to fit a pre-determined conclusion.  On at least one occasion, Lott&#039;s been caught redhanded creating a study out of thin air; amusingly, even this fabricated study didn&#039;t support his findings.

Of course, this doesn&#039;t even touch the very creepy practices of Lott creating fictonal personas to praise his research and his marked tendency to attack and malign those who point out his errors.

Bellesiles&#039; work was intended to portray a history of American firearm usage--as such, it had no public policy implications.  Yet, Lott continues to be cited as an authority on matters of public policy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brett: All I can say is that you haven&#8217;t followed the controversy surrounding Lott if you believe Lott&#8217;s &#8216;problems&#8217; and &#8216;errors&#8217; were &#8216;subtle&#8217; and in &#8216;the margins.&#8217; There are no shortages of instances where Lott has been caught manipulating data and/or methodologies to fit a pre-determined conclusion.  On at least one occasion, Lott&#8217;s been caught redhanded creating a study out of thin air; amusingly, even this fabricated study didn&#8217;t support his findings.</p>

	<p>Of course, this doesn&#8217;t even touch the very creepy practices of Lott creating fictonal personas to praise his research and his marked tendency to attack and malign those who point out his errors.</p>

	<p>Bellesiles&#8217; work was intended to portray a history of American firearm usage&#8212;as such, it had no public policy implications.  Yet, Lott continues to be cited as an authority on matters of public policy.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/comment-page-1/#comment-84014</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Jul 2005 10:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/07/23/ideology-and-integrity/#comment-84014</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t recall suggesting that the right&#039;s treatment of Lott is comparable to the way Bellesiles was treated... Of course, the cases are quite different, too.

The chief difference between the cases, it seems to me, is that the problems with Lott&#039;s research were fairly subtle, and the errors were at the margins. If his behavior had been a bit better, you could call it nothing more than an innocent mistake. 

Bellesiles was off by a huge factor in his numbers, and engaged in forms of fraud understandable to anyone who&#039;s minimally literate: Invented sources, changing quotes to agree with his thesis, using quotes out of context to imply the opposite of what the source was actually saying. From the moment his book was published, there was no real question that the fraud was deliberate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t recall suggesting that the right&#8217;s treatment of Lott is comparable to the way Bellesiles was treated&#8230; Of course, the cases are quite different, too.</p>

	<p>The chief difference between the cases, it seems to me, is that the problems with Lott&#8217;s research were fairly subtle, and the errors were at the margins. If his behavior had been a bit better, you could call it nothing more than an innocent mistake.</p>

	<p>Bellesiles was off by a huge factor in his numbers, and engaged in forms of fraud understandable to anyone who&#8217;s minimally literate: Invented sources, changing quotes to agree with his thesis, using quotes out of context to imply the opposite of what the source was actually saying. From the moment his book was published, there was no real question that the fraud was deliberate.</p>
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