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	<title>Comments on: Declare, if thou hast understanding</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Edward</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87892</link>
		<dc:creator>Edward</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 06:03:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87892</guid>
		<description>A:  How did X happen?
B:  I don&#039;t know.
A:  Ah-ha!  That &lt;b&gt;proves&lt;/b&gt; that God did it.

In response to the question of how Intelligent Design has been disproven, I would amplify on #81 a bit:

The main argument of ID is &quot;If evolution cannot explain the development of X, then X must be a product of Intelligent Design.&quot;  The main logical fallacy here is that Intelligent Design is the only possible alternative to evolution, which must be defaulted to.  Also, the assumption that evolutionary theory cannot explain something is invoked for anything which is currently unknown.  The mere fact that something has not been explained by the theory of evolution is not proof that evolution &lt;i&gt;cannot&lt;/i&gt; explain it (It is, however, conceivable for some empirical observation to apparently contradict evolutionary theory, but, creationists&#039; claims to the contrary, this has not been observed in actual fact).

It&#039;s worse than that, though.  In addition to merely invoking the genuine unknowns of biological evolution, ID proponents are fond of pretending that things which are actually well-understood are, instead, unknown.

Richard Dawkins explains this and more in greater depth in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.csicop.org/creationwatch/dawkins.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;God&#039;s Gift to Kansas&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A:  How did X happen?<br />
B:  I don&#8217;t know.<br />
A:  Ah-ha!  That <b>proves</b> that God did it.</p>

	<p>In response to the question of how Intelligent Design has been disproven, I would amplify on #81 a bit:</p>

	<p>The main argument of ID is &#8220;If evolution cannot explain the development of X, then X must be a product of Intelligent Design.&#8221;  The main logical fallacy here is that Intelligent Design is the only possible alternative to evolution, which must be defaulted to.  Also, the assumption that evolutionary theory cannot explain something is invoked for anything which is currently unknown.  The mere fact that something has not been explained by the theory of evolution is not proof that evolution <i>cannot</i> explain it (It is, however, conceivable for some empirical observation to apparently contradict evolutionary theory, but, creationists&#8217; claims to the contrary, this has not been observed in actual fact).</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s worse than that, though.  In addition to merely invoking the genuine unknowns of biological evolution, ID proponents are fond of pretending that things which are actually well-understood are, instead, unknown.</p>

	<p>Richard Dawkins explains this and more in greater depth in <a href="http://www.csicop.org/creationwatch/dawkins.html" rel="nofollow">God&#8217;s Gift to Kansas</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87574</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 17:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87574</guid>
		<description>Sam, Alex--
  My fault, but we&#039;re conflating some differernt things here.  
An accepted theory isn&#039;t necessarily abandoned immediately because of contradictory evidence, right?  If a theory can be shown to contain a logical or mathematical contradiction, that&#039;s one thing; but if the evidence is a test whose results contradict the predictions of the theory, that test gets replicated and others are devisesd before the theory is abandoned.  There&#039;s a weight of precedent (not entirely unlike the law, I reckon).

In any case, this question is important wrt ID because it bears on one of Johnson&#039;s two basic claims in the original Darwin on Trial article, that even if a critic can offer no counter-theory with any principled basis, that evidence of imperfection in a theory is sufficient to reduce it to the value of the counter-theory.  What Johnson claimed, as far as I can tell, is that some years ago, since we had not yet found the &quot;missing link&quot; between dinosaurs and birds, that at the time evolution was a failure and therefore deserving of no more consideration than ID.  More recently, he might have argued that the inability of evolutionary theory to explain at this time the oddity of a certain bird&#039;s set of features means that evolution is unsatisfactory.  etc.

If there wasn&#039;t the conflict with the beliefs of certain soi-disant Christians in this country, the above would be politically unimportant and Sam&#039;s point in #36 would hold, rather benignly; but since people in general are not going to be exposed to these (if you&#039;ll allow me) meta-concerns, the question of the amount of tolerance we ought to give to these kinds of objections is more vexed.

Sorry if the above is messy, got to get back to work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sam, Alex&#8212;My fault, but we&#8217;re conflating some differernt things here.<br />
An accepted theory isn&#8217;t necessarily abandoned immediately because of contradictory evidence, right?  If a theory can be shown to contain a logical or mathematical contradiction, that&#8217;s one thing; but if the evidence is a test whose results contradict the predictions of the theory, that test gets replicated and others are devisesd before the theory is abandoned.  There&#8217;s a weight of precedent (not entirely unlike the law, I reckon).</p>

	<p>In any case, this question is important wrt ID because it bears on one of Johnson&#8217;s two basic claims in the original Darwin on Trial article, that even if a critic can offer no counter-theory with any principled basis, that evidence of imperfection in a theory is sufficient to reduce it to the value of the counter-theory.  What Johnson claimed, as far as I can tell, is that some years ago, since we had not yet found the &#8220;missing link&#8221; between dinosaurs and birds, that at the time evolution was a failure and therefore deserving of no more consideration than ID.  More recently, he might have argued that the inability of evolutionary theory to explain at this time the oddity of a certain bird&#8217;s set of features means that evolution is unsatisfactory.  etc.</p>

	<p>If there wasn&#8217;t the conflict with the beliefs of certain soi-disant Christians in this country, the above would be politically unimportant and Sam&#8217;s point in #36 would hold, rather benignly; but since people in general are not going to be exposed to these (if you&#8217;ll allow me) meta-concerns, the question of the amount of tolerance we ought to give to these kinds of objections is more vexed.</p>

	<p>Sorry if the above is messy, got to get back to work.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87542</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 12:52:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87542</guid>
		<description>Actually, most if not all of the claimed &quot;gaps&quot;, like the ones made much of in Behe&#039;s book, are simply phony. Behe made false claims- which he has never publicly retracted AFAIK- about the absence of literature in areas where at the time he wrote there were actually tons of papers. Anyone who wants lots of details can find them on the talk.origins site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, most if not all of the claimed &#8220;gaps&#8221;, like the ones made much of in Behe&#8217;s book, are simply phony. Behe made false claims- which he has never publicly retracted <span class="caps">AFAIK</span>- about the absence of literature in areas where at the time he wrote there were actually tons of papers. Anyone who wants lots of details can find them on the talk.origins site.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87504</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 00:11:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87504</guid>
		<description>The most they&#039;ve managed to do so far, is to demonstrate that in some cases, you can&#039;t figure out how evolution could have produced some feature. That sort of gap isn&#039;t particularly unusual in the application of theories to extremely complex situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The most they&#8217;ve managed to do so far, is to demonstrate that in some cases, you can&#8217;t figure out how evolution could have produced some feature. That sort of gap isn&#8217;t particularly unusual in the application of theories to extremely complex situations.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87495</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 21:35:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87495</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As I said in #36, intelligent design is not an explanatory theory; it’s a demonstration that in some cases, evolutionary theory isn’t a satisfactory explanation.&lt;/i&gt;

Er, no. It&#039;s a dodgy critique wrapped up in shiny ineffability.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>As I said in #36, intelligent design is not an explanatory theory; it&#8217;s a demonstration that in some cases, evolutionary theory isn&#8217;t a satisfactory explanation.</i></p>

	<p>Er, no. It&#8217;s a dodgy critique wrapped up in shiny ineffability.</p>
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		<title>By: alex (a different one)</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87488</link>
		<dc:creator>alex (a different one)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:28:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87488</guid>
		<description>Jake, the cliched image of the lonely researcher producing the One Brilliant Idea and overturning accepted knowledge is crap, and always has been.  In reality, nearly every scientist has colleagues with whom new ideas are thrashed out.  In that setting, it&#039;s obligatory that holes are poked in any theory, no matter how small.  If it prevents one from having a paper laughed out of a conference, that&#039;s a good thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jake, the cliched image of the lonely researcher producing the One Brilliant Idea and overturning accepted knowledge is crap, and always has been.  In reality, nearly every scientist has colleagues with whom new ideas are thrashed out.  In that setting, it&#8217;s obligatory that holes are poked in any theory, no matter how small.  If it prevents one from having a paper laughed out of a conference, that&#8217;s a good thing.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87486</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 19:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87486</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;you’re really claiming that you can attack an accepted theory without offering anything to replace it? I find that hard to believe; don’t you at the least offer a modification and then a revised theory?&lt;/i&gt;

Jake--yes--that&#039;s exactly what I&#039;m claiming.  I can say, &quot;Your theory X is wrong; look at this case which contradicts it,&quot; even if I have no better explanation.

Think of the experiments measuring the speed of light, which disproved the ether theory of how light moved.  After that, the ether theory was known to be wrong, but it was several years and several explanations later until there was a new, well-worked-out theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>you&#8217;re really claiming that you can attack an accepted theory without offering anything to replace it? I find that hard to believe; don&#8217;t you at the least offer a modification and then a revised theory?</i></p>

	<p>Jake&#8212;yes&#8212;that&#8217;s exactly what I&#8217;m claiming.  I can say, &#8220;Your theory X is wrong; look at this case which contradicts it,&#8221; even if I have no better explanation.</p>

	<p>Think of the experiments measuring the speed of light, which disproved the ether theory of how light moved.  After that, the ether theory was known to be wrong, but it was several years and several explanations later until there was a new, well-worked-out theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87481</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 18:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87481</guid>
		<description>SamC--

  you&#039;re really claiming that you can attack an accepted theory without offering anything to replace it?  I find that hard to believe; don&#039;t you at the least offer a modification and then a revised theory?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>SamC&#8212;<br />
you&#8217;re really claiming that you can attack an accepted theory without offering anything to replace it?  I find that hard to believe; don&#8217;t you at the least offer a modification and then a revised theory?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87475</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 17:06:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87475</guid>
		<description>And it doesn&#039;t help that in the rare instances when they do try to make some criticism with actual empirical content- viz. Dumbski&#039;s &quot;information-theory&quot; noodling- it&#039;s always laughably incompetent. Which is only to be expected since the whole thing is really a political enterprise and not a scientific one at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And it doesn&#8217;t help that in the rare instances when they do try to make some criticism with actual empirical content- viz. Dumbski&#8217;s &#8220;information-theory&#8221; noodling- it&#8217;s always laughably incompetent. Which is only to be expected since the whole thing is really a political enterprise and not a scientific one at all.</p>
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		<title>By: albert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87433</link>
		<dc:creator>albert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:34:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87433</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But isn’t that a critical piece of “doing science?”&lt;/i&gt;

No, it&#039;s only worth while if there&#039;s evidence or falsifiable/testable claims upon which the new hypothesis can be made.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But isn&#8217;t that a critical piece of &#8220;doing science?&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>No, it&#8217;s only worth while if there&#8217;s evidence or falsifiable/testable claims upon which the new hypothesis can be made.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87428</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87428</guid>
		<description>Bertrand,

&lt;i&gt;Because the people arguing for intelligent design don’t say anything about intelligent design or produce their own science, but just snipe at the already-existing science of evolutionary biology?&lt;/i&gt;

But isn&#039;t that a critical piece of &quot;doing science?&quot;  It certainly is in my field of math and economics.  Pointing out that &quot;this theory doesn&#039;t work--look at this result&quot; does not require and has never required a better theory, although it leads to better theories.

As I said in #36, intelligent design is not an explanatory theory; it&#039;s a demonstration that in some cases, evolutionary theory isn&#039;t a satisfactory explanation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bertrand,</p>

	<p><i>Because the people arguing for intelligent design don&#8217;t say anything about intelligent design or produce their own science, but just snipe at the already-existing science of evolutionary biology?</i></p>

	<p>But isn&#8217;t that a critical piece of &#8220;doing science?&#8221;  It certainly is in my field of math and economics.  Pointing out that &#8220;this theory doesn&#8217;t work&#8212;look at this result&#8221; does not require and has never required a better theory, although it leads to better theories.</p>

	<p>As I said in #36, intelligent design is not an explanatory theory; it&#8217;s a demonstration that in some cases, evolutionary theory isn&#8217;t a satisfactory explanation.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87405</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 07:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87405</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m constantly frustrated by unwillingness of the ignorant to challenge astronomy. Apart from urban legends of proof of a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;day lost&lt;/a&gt;, they seem to have abandoned the geocentric universe and the flat earth clearly described in scriptures. Perhaps they have satellite TV.

The question of evolution seems to challenge the idea of the soul, which is for them the locus of irreducible complexity. Whether &#039;tis the sperm, the ovum, the blastocyst, the fetus, at some point there is an infusion of a supernatural nature, which is arbitrarily denied to otherwise similar creatures, or precursors of creatures, because they do not partake of the ineffable essence of humanity.

Today we have the effort of the indefatigable &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/opinion/05krugman.html?&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Paul Krugman:&lt;/a&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;There are several reasons why fake research is so effective. One is that nonscientists sometimes find it hard to tell the difference between research and advocacy - if it&#039;s got numbers and charts in it, doesn&#039;t that make it science?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

and (but this is written by a distinguished professor)

&lt;blockquote&gt;Finally, the self-policing nature of science - scientific truth is determined by peer review, not public opinion - can be exploited by skilled purveyors of cultural resentment. Do virtually all biologists agree that Darwin was right? Well, that just shows that they&#039;re elitists who think they&#039;re smarter than the rest of us.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The same idea of science that made the machine in front of you, and that made this conversation possible, concocted the theory of evolution with comparable tools and the identical attitude. Fuck with it at your peril.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m constantly frustrated by unwillingness of the ignorant to challenge astronomy. Apart from urban legends of proof of a <a href="http://www.snopes.com/religion/lostday.htm" rel="nofollow">day lost</a>, they seem to have abandoned the geocentric universe and the flat earth clearly described in scriptures. Perhaps they have satellite TV.</p>

	<p>The question of evolution seems to challenge the idea of the soul, which is for them the locus of irreducible complexity. Whether &#8216;tis the sperm, the ovum, the blastocyst, the fetus, at some point there is an infusion of a supernatural nature, which is arbitrarily denied to otherwise similar creatures, or precursors of creatures, because they do not partake of the ineffable essence of humanity.</p>

	<p>Today we have the effort of the indefatigable <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/05/opinion/05krugman.html?" rel="nofollow">Paul Krugman:</a></p>

	<p><blockquote>There are several reasons why fake research is so effective. One is that nonscientists sometimes find it hard to tell the difference between research and advocacy &#8211; if it&#8217;s got numbers and charts in it, doesn&#8217;t that make it science?</blockquote></p>

	<p>and (but this is written by a distinguished professor)</p>

	<p><blockquote>Finally, the self-policing nature of science &#8211; scientific truth is determined by peer review, not public opinion &#8211; can be exploited by skilled purveyors of cultural resentment. Do virtually all biologists agree that Darwin was right? Well, that just shows that they&#8217;re elitists who think they&#8217;re smarter than the rest of us.</blockquote></p>

	<p>The same idea of science that made the machine in front of you, and that made this conversation possible, concocted the theory of evolution with comparable tools and the identical attitude. Fuck with it at your peril.</p>
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		<title>By: robbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87404</link>
		<dc:creator>robbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 06:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87404</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Adam and Even required free will to partake of the apple, when God had specifically told them not to. It was a randomness God risked. It was a choice taken, randome act Adam and Even ceased and made their own.&lt;/i&gt;

Ken Wilbur&#039;s take on this story, which makes perfect sense to me, is that A&amp;E partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge equates with humans making the monumental and irreversible leap from animal awareness to something akin to what we recognize as human self-awareness. With that relatively recent leap inevitably came such concepts as time, abstract thought, agriculture, foreknowledge of one&#039;s own death, religion, fashion, nukes, cloned dogs, and reality TV.

There&#039;s obviously some good fun to be had with all that abstract thinking, but &quot;God&quot; would actually have been &quot;warning&quot; A&amp;E about the dark side that comes with it all that brainpower. Had Eve -- the original scapegoat -- just said no to that old snake (or, more accurately, if evolution had taken a different turn) we hominids could have lived in that groovy, animalistic, jungley kinda way for all of eternity. We&#039;d have had no more idea that we were gonna die than my cats have, and that would have saved us from all the insufferable religionistas vying for our precious &lt;i&gt;soooouls&lt;/i&gt; and laying down all the ridiculous laws we just gotta follow if we&#039;re gonna escape the boredom of sitting out eternity as a pile of bones in a pine box shoved under the crust of a planet orbiting a sun out in the middle of nowhere. So thanks a lot, Eve/evolutionary twist of fate. I like to think I&#039;d have chosen 40 years of unselfconscious monkey-lovin&#039; good times over sitting here typing and worrying about the future -- nah, who am I kidding...

The flaw in the construction of the A&amp;E/original sin story as it&#039;s commonly related is that humans could never have had a &quot;choice&quot; about whether to become self-aware or to engage in abstract thought. But those crafty religious types were able to frame the issue not only as one of choice but of defiance, thereby enabling them to label it the original sin. They&#039;ve sure gotten a lot of mileage out of that one -- today&#039;s pulpit-barons have nothing on the high priests of yore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Adam and Even required free will to partake of the apple, when God had specifically told them not to. It was a randomness God risked. It was a choice taken, randome act Adam and Even ceased and made their own.</i></p>

	<p>Ken Wilbur&#8217;s take on this story, which makes perfect sense to me, is that A&#038;E partaking of the fruit of the tree of knowledge equates with humans making the monumental and irreversible leap from animal awareness to something akin to what we recognize as human self-awareness. With that relatively recent leap inevitably came such concepts as time, abstract thought, agriculture, foreknowledge of one&#8217;s own death, religion, fashion, nukes, cloned dogs, and reality TV.</p>

	<p>There&#8217;s obviously some good fun to be had with all that abstract thinking, but &#8220;God&#8221; would actually have been &#8220;warning&#8221; A&#038;E about the dark side that comes with it all that brainpower. Had Eve&#8212;the original scapegoat&#8212;just said no to that old snake (or, more accurately, if evolution had taken a different turn) we hominids could have lived in that groovy, animalistic, jungley kinda way for all of eternity. We&#8217;d have had no more idea that we were gonna die than my cats have, and that would have saved us from all the insufferable religionistas vying for our precious <i>soooouls</i> and laying down all the ridiculous laws we just gotta follow if we&#8217;re gonna escape the boredom of sitting out eternity as a pile of bones in a pine box shoved under the crust of a planet orbiting a sun out in the middle of nowhere. So thanks a lot, Eve/evolutionary twist of fate. I like to think I&#8217;d have chosen 40 years of unselfconscious monkey-lovin&#8217; good times over sitting here typing and worrying about the future&#8212;nah, who am I kidding&#8230;</p>

	<p>The flaw in the construction of the A&#038;E/original sin story as it&#8217;s commonly related is that humans could never have had a &#8220;choice&#8221; about whether to become self-aware or to engage in abstract thought. But those crafty religious types were able to frame the issue not only as one of choice but of defiance, thereby enabling them to label it the original sin. They&#8217;ve sure gotten a lot of mileage out of that one&#8212;today&#8217;s pulpit-barons have nothing on the high priests of yore.</p>
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		<title>By: Doctor Memory</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87399</link>
		<dc:creator>Doctor Memory</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87399</guid>
		<description>I always kinda wonder: why is it that the creationist rationalization that evolution is &quot;just another religion&quot; only ever gets applied to, well, evolution?  Shouldn&#039;t these people be out demanding that the theory of &lt;a href=&#039;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;phlogiston&lt;/a&gt; be given equal billing with the laws of thermodynamics?  After all, thermodynamicism is just another religion...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I always kinda wonder: why is it that the creationist rationalization that evolution is &#8220;just another religion&#8221; only ever gets applied to, well, evolution?  Shouldn&#8217;t these people be out demanding that the theory of <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phlogiston' rel="nofollow">phlogiston</a> be given equal billing with the laws of thermodynamics?  After all, thermodynamicism is just another religion&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: bill cowper</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/03/declare-if-thou-hast-understanding/comment-page-2/#comment-87398</link>
		<dc:creator>bill cowper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 03:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3640#comment-87398</guid>
		<description>Soru:

&lt;i&gt;The sequel, where Powers explains the truth behind 9/11 and the real reason for the invasion of Iraq, is even better.&lt;/i&gt;

Wow. I would &lt;strong&gt;so&lt;/strong&gt; buy that book.  Given how Powers worked Middle Eastern folklore (djins, ghuls, Noah, the Fall, etc.) into the Cold War--and the older, colder, war--I think he could pull it off.

After Powers mentioned the Artists Rifles regiment  (on Ararat in 1948) and then Stross used them in his &lt;i&gt;Atrocity Archives&lt;/i&gt; I had to look it up.  Yes, the Artists Rifles is the SAS&#039;s reserve.  Such a mild name for that group. &quot;Hi, we&#039;re the Artists Rifles.&quot;  That&#039;s almost Pythonesque.

ObID: I&#039;m not sure the entities in &lt;i&gt;Declare&lt;/i&gt; would design life on this planet to favor humans in any way at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Soru:</p>

	<p><i>The sequel, where Powers explains the truth behind 9/11 and the real reason for the invasion of Iraq, is even better.</i></p>

	<p>Wow. I would <strong>so</strong> buy that book.  Given how Powers worked Middle Eastern folklore (djins, ghuls, Noah, the Fall, etc.) into the Cold War&#8212;and the older, colder, war&#8212;I think he could pull it off.</p>

	<p>After Powers mentioned the Artists Rifles regiment  (on Ararat in 1948) and then Stross used them in his <i>Atrocity Archives</i> I had to look it up.  Yes, the Artists Rifles is the <span class="caps">SAS</span>&#8217;s reserve.  Such a mild name for that group. &#8220;Hi, we&#8217;re the Artists Rifles.&#8221;  That&#8217;s almost Pythonesque.</p>

	<p>ObID: I&#8217;m not sure the entities in <i>Declare</i> would design life on this planet to favor humans in any way at all.</p>
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