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	<title>Comments on: Spreading Statistics, cont.</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Spike</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87608</link>
		<dc:creator>Spike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87608</guid>
		<description>My previous submission had an extra letter in the email address: the &quot;a&quot; preceding the &quot;@&quot; was incorrect.  Thx, Spike</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My previous submission had an extra letter in the email address: the &#8220;a&#8221; preceding the &#8220;@&#8221; was incorrect.  Thx, Spike</p>
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		<title>By: Spike</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87607</link>
		<dc:creator>Spike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Aug 2005 09:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87607</guid>
		<description>Statistics such as Santorum is speaking about are, of course, easy to fudge, and difficult to lay out in broadly agreeable terms.  Nonetheless, his essential point is quite correct, namely, that the American middle class was vastly better off in the 1950&#039;s.  Another way of looking at the issue is this: in the 1950&#039;s, the US federal government income from taxes came approximately two-thirds from the corporate sector, and one-third from families, individuals and mom-and-pop businesses; the proportions are now reversed, and the two-income,middle-class scramble confirms it.

And, yes, I&#039;m a long-time left-of-center Democrat, so while it&#039;s unusual to find myself agreeing with someone like Santorum, the more remarkable thing is that his point is poison in today&#039;s Republican party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Statistics such as Santorum is speaking about are, of course, easy to fudge, and difficult to lay out in broadly agreeable terms.  Nonetheless, his essential point is quite correct, namely, that the American middle class was vastly better off in the 1950&#8217;s.  Another way of looking at the issue is this: in the 1950&#8217;s, the US federal government income from taxes came approximately two-thirds from the corporate sector, and one-third from families, individuals and mom-and-pop businesses; the proportions are now reversed, and the two-income,middle-class scramble confirms it.</p>

	<p>And, yes, I&#8217;m a long-time left-of-center Democrat, so while it&#8217;s unusual to find myself agreeing with someone like Santorum, the more remarkable thing is that his point is poison in today&#8217;s Republican party.</p>
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		<title>By: 'As you know' Bob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87518</link>
		<dc:creator>'As you know' Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Aug 2005 05:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87518</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t understand why Right Blogostan is so atwitter about good Doctor Dean&#039;s remark.

Apparently they all think that the pronoun &quot;his&quot; (as in &quot;Bush and HIS court&quot;) can ONLY means &quot;ownership.&quot;  But it also can be used to express other relationships.

The Good Doctor was speaking loosely, assuming a commutative relation:
&quot;The president and his right-wing Court&quot;  in the sense that the Bush presidency is certainly a creation of &quot;this right-ing court&quot;.

So strictly speaking, while this Court may or may not be Bush&#039;s,  BUSH certainly &quot;belongs&quot; to this court.
So &quot;the President and his Court&quot; is not a false statement.
You can talk about &quot;a dog and his owner&quot;,
a &quot;bad joke and its author&quot;.
&quot;Bush and his Court&quot; is a parallel construction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t understand why Right Blogostan is so atwitter about good Doctor Dean&#8217;s remark.</p>

	<p>Apparently they all think that the pronoun &#8220;his&#8221; (as in &#8220;Bush and <span class="caps">HIS</span> court&#8221;) can <span class="caps">ONLY</span> means &#8220;ownership.&#8221;  But it also can be used to express other relationships.</p>

	<p>The Good Doctor was speaking loosely, assuming a commutative relation:<br />
&#8220;The president and his right-wing Court&#8221;  in the sense that the Bush presidency is certainly a creation of &#8220;this right-ing court&#8221;.</p>

	<p>So strictly speaking, while this Court may or may not be Bush&#8217;s,  <span class="caps">BUSH</span> certainly &#8220;belongs&#8221; to this court.<br />
So &#8220;the President and his Court&#8221; is not a false statement.<br />
You can talk about &#8220;a dog and his owner&#8221;,<br />
a &#8220;bad joke and its author&#8221;.<br />
&#8220;Bush and his Court&#8221; is a parallel construction.</p>
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		<title>By: Al Maviva</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87491</link>
		<dc:creator>Al Maviva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 20:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87491</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The president and his right-wing Supreme Court think it is &#039;okay&#039; to have the government take your house if they feel like putting a hotel where your house is,&quot; Dean said, not mentioning that until he nominated John Roberts to the Supreme Court this week, Bush had not appointed anyone to the high court.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That&#039;s from CNS.com, Texan, not necessarily reliable to you because you don&#039;t believe anything said by organizations that don&#039;t share your biases. 

But here&#039;s one of your pals at Kos on Dean&#039;s statements:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/26/165119/316

Dean has not denied or backed off the statement, which was made to the College Democrats.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>&#8220;The president and his right-wing Supreme Court think it is &#8216;okay&#8217; to have the government take your house if they feel like putting a hotel where your house is,&#8221; Dean said, not mentioning that until he nominated John Roberts to the Supreme Court this week, Bush had not appointed anyone to the high court.</blockquote></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s from <span class="caps">CNS</span>.com, Texan, not necessarily reliable to you because you don&#8217;t believe anything said by organizations that don&#8217;t share your biases.</p>

	<p>But here&#8217;s one of your pals at Kos on Dean&#8217;s statements:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/26/165119/316" rel="nofollow">http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/26/165119/316</a></p>

	<p>Dean has not denied or backed off the statement, which was made to the College Democrats.</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87442</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87442</guid>
		<description>&quot;Howard Dean’s recent claim that Bush was responsible for the Kelo decision&quot; 

After further review (which takes some time, since most of the right blogsphere that is whining about Dean doesn&#039;t actually quote him, which is probably a good thing since those who do apparently can&#039;t read) I find that the above statement is false.  

Why am I not surprised? 
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Howard Dean&#8217;s recent claim that Bush was responsible for the Kelo decision&#8221;</p>

	<p>After further review (which takes some time, since most of the right blogsphere that is whining about Dean doesn&#8217;t actually quote him, which is probably a good thing since those who do apparently can&#8217;t read) I find that the above statement is false.</p>

	<p>Why am I not surprised?<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Moff Texan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87438</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Moff Texan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:43:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87438</guid>
		<description>Shorter Jim Miller:  

Look!  Over there!  Guys who aren&#039;t in charge saying stuff!  

No, over THERE, over THERE!  
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Shorter Jim Miller:</p>

	<p>Look!  Over there!  Guys who aren&#8217;t in charge saying stuff!</p>

	<p>No, over <span class="caps">THERE</span>, over <span class="caps">THERE</span>!<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Miller</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87436</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Miller</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 13:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87436</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s a good idea holding politicians responsible for the accuracy of their claims on the economy, and on every other issue.  And I expect to see Ted apply that to some Democratic polticians soon, too.

If he likes, he might start with an old one, Clinton&#039;s claim that the economy in 1992 was the &quot;worst in 50 years&quot;.  

Or, he might check on Howard Dean&#039;s recent claim that Bush was responsible for the Kelo decision.

I look forward to his posts on the errors by Democratic politicians.

(Is Santorum right?  I have no idea, and I have enough trouble keeping track of the dynamic duo here in Washington state, Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, to spend much time on the question.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s a good idea holding politicians responsible for the accuracy of their claims on the economy, and on every other issue.  And I expect to see Ted apply that to some Democratic polticians soon, too.</p>

	<p>If he likes, he might start with an old one, Clinton&#8217;s claim that the economy in 1992 was the &#8220;worst in 50 years&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Or, he might check on Howard Dean&#8217;s recent claim that Bush was responsible for the Kelo decision.</p>

	<p>I look forward to his posts on the errors by Democratic politicians.</p>

	<p>(Is Santorum right?  I have no idea, and I have enough trouble keeping track of the dynamic duo here in Washington state, Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell, to spend much time on the question.)</p>
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		<title>By: Davis X. Machina</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87400</link>
		<dc:creator>Davis X. Machina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 04:07:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87400</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Shouldn’t the Senator care whether what he’s saying is right or wrong?&lt;/i&gt;

Santorum is a reductionist consequentialist.

&#039;Right&#039; means &#039;wins elections&#039;. 
&#039;Wrong&#039; means &#039;loses elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Shouldn&#8217;t the Senator care whether what he&#8217;s saying is right or wrong?</i></p>

	<p>Santorum is a reductionist consequentialist.</p>

	<p>&#8216;Right&#8217; means &#8216;wins elections&#8217;.<br />
&#8216;Wrong&#8217; means &#8216;loses elections.</p>
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		<title>By: nick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87392</link>
		<dc:creator>nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Aug 2005 02:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87392</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Incidentally, is there anything more depressing than the “Current Events” section of a modern-day bookstore?&lt;/i&gt;

Yes. Wandering into your local bookshop to see Zell Miller doing a signing of one of those crapulent tomes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Incidentally, is there anything more depressing than the &#8220;Current Events&#8221; section of a modern-day bookstore?</i></p>

	<p>Yes. Wandering into your local bookshop to see Zell Miller doing a signing of one of those crapulent tomes.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87376</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 22:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87376</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Samchevre, they claim to include the employee’s portion of FICA; is it possible that the 15.2% includes the employer’s portion? I’m looking at my most recent paycheck, and the combined Social Security and Medicare tax was 7.7%.&lt;/i&gt;

Ted--thanks--I was at work and didn&#039;t have time to read the Tax Policy site.  Also, correction--15.2% should have been 15.4%.

If they are including only the &lt;i&gt;employee&#039;s&lt;/i&gt; portion of FICA, they are undercounting--the portion &quot;charged&quot; to the employer is equally part of the taxes paid by the employee.  (Geeky aside--economic theory says that the distribution of tax burdens on a transaction is based on relative bargaining power, not the party responsible for making the payment.)  That would increase the median household&#039;s tax burden in 1950 by only 1.5%, but today by 7.7%--so the actual spread, from the Tax Policy site, would be from 8.9% in 1950 to 22.1% today.

Adding in the median/mean difference--you can assume that the difference in income between the median and the mean household is taxed at around 40% (15.4% FICA and 28% income tax)--and Santorum&#039;s claim isn&#039;t as far-fetched as it initially seems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Samchevre, they claim to include the employee&#8217;s portion of <span class="caps">FICA</span>; is it possible that the 15.2% includes the employer&#8217;s portion? I&#8217;m looking at my most recent paycheck, and the combined Social Security and Medicare tax was 7.7%.</i></p>

	<p>Ted&#8212;thanks&#8212;I was at work and didn&#8217;t have time to read the Tax Policy site.  Also, correction&#8212;15.2% should have been 15.4%.</p>

	<p>If they are including only the <i>employee&#8217;s</i> portion of <span class="caps">FICA</span>, they are undercounting&#8212;the portion &#8220;charged&#8221; to the employer is equally part of the taxes paid by the employee.  (Geeky aside&#8212;economic theory says that the distribution of tax burdens on a transaction is based on relative bargaining power, not the party responsible for making the payment.)  That would increase the median household&#8217;s tax burden in 1950 by only 1.5%, but today by 7.7%&#8212;so the actual spread, from the Tax Policy site, would be from 8.9% in 1950 to 22.1% today.</p>

	<p>Adding in the median/mean difference&#8212;you can assume that the difference in income between the median and the mean household is taxed at around 40% (15.4% <span class="caps">FICA</span> and 28% income tax)&#8212;and Santorum&#8217;s claim isn&#8217;t as far-fetched as it initially seems.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87359</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 21:02:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87359</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Shouldn’t the Senator care whether what he’s saying is right or wrong?&lt;/i&gt;

Funny.

&lt;i&gt;Wouldn’t it be nice if a journalist asked him about it?&lt;/i&gt;

Even funnier.

You should write for Comedy Central, dude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Shouldn&#8217;t the Senator care whether what he&#8217;s saying is right or wrong?</i></p>

	<p>Funny.</p>

	<p><i>Wouldn&#8217;t it be nice if a journalist asked him about it?</i></p>

	<p>Even funnier.</p>

	<p>You should write for Comedy Central, dude.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87353</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 20:28:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87353</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean between periods, I meant between Santorum&#039;s quote and your research.

Santorum discusses what has happened to the &quot;average&quot; family.  You discuss what has happened to the &quot;median&quot; family.

If the &quot;average&quot; family has changed, say, by getting richer, then naturally the &quot;average&quot; family is going to have a higher income tax burden now than previously.

The average family could get richer at a rate faster than the median family if high end earners are significantly more rich than they used to be.  My understanding is that this is the case.

If the numbers used to be, in a hypothetical 5 person nation,

10k
12k
20k
40k
80k

and now are

12k
15k
25k
70k
150k

Then the median increased by 5k, but the average increased by 22k.  So, statistics based on the income of the &quot;average&quot; earner would show a greater increase than those based on the median earner.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I didn&#8217;t mean between periods, I meant between Santorum&#8217;s quote and your research.</p>

	<p>Santorum discusses what has happened to the &#8220;average&#8221; family.  You discuss what has happened to the &#8220;median&#8221; family.</p>

	<p>If the &#8220;average&#8221; family has changed, say, by getting richer, then naturally the &#8220;average&#8221; family is going to have a higher income tax burden now than previously.</p>

	<p>The average family could get richer at a rate faster than the median family if high end earners are significantly more rich than they used to be.  My understanding is that this is the case.</p>

	<p>If the numbers used to be, in a hypothetical 5 person nation,</p>

	<p>10k<br />
12k<br />
20k<br />
40k<br />
80k</p>

	<p>and now are</p>

	<p>12k<br />
15k<br />
25k<br />
70k<br />
150k</p>

	<p>Then the median increased by 5k, but the average increased by 22k.  So, statistics based on the income of the &#8220;average&#8221; earner would show a greater increase than those based on the median earner.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87345</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 19:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87345</guid>
		<description>Come to think of it, I agree that 1950 tax rates were much better than they are today. The top income tax bracket was what - 95%? Something like that. Corporate taxes were higher too with much fewer loopholes. 

If he&#039;s seriously advocating returning to the 1950 income tax model - more power to him. Let&#039;s do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Come to think of it, I agree that 1950 tax rates were much better than they are today. The top income tax bracket was what &#8211; 95%? Something like that. Corporate taxes were higher too with much fewer loopholes.</p>

	<p>If he&#8217;s seriously advocating returning to the 1950 income tax model &#8211; more power to him. Let&#8217;s do it.</p>
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		<title>By: Jane Adams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87342</link>
		<dc:creator>Jane Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:54:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87342</guid>
		<description>Many Republicans still act like their out of office and don&#039;t have to budget real money.

When one subtracts social security and medicare total federal expences are about the same, total taxes (including SS and medcare) are a lower percentage of GNP since they&#039;ve been since the fifties.

Still there is waste, but how big and how much of it is acceptable?  Reduced spending on roads to 1950 GNP proportions?  I thnk not!  Medicaid, except 2/3rds goes to the elderly and disabled, yo want hundreds of thousands of helpless folks tossed out of nursing homes?  Cutting shots for poor kids doesn&#039;t save that much.  

Or you could propose that corporate taxes and those on the wealthy mirror percentages of GNP in 1950?  That would cut down the median tax burden.  A lot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Many Republicans still act like their out of office and don&#8217;t have to budget real money.</p>

	<p>When one subtracts social security and medicare total federal expences are about the same, total taxes (including SS and medcare) are a lower percentage of <span class="caps">GNP</span> since they&#8217;ve been since the fifties.</p>

	<p>Still there is waste, but how big and how much of it is acceptable?  Reduced spending on roads to 1950 <span class="caps">GNP</span> proportions?  I thnk not!  Medicaid, except 2/3rds goes to the elderly and disabled, yo want hundreds of thousands of helpless folks tossed out of nursing homes?  Cutting shots for poor kids doesn&#8217;t save that much.</p>

	<p>Or you could propose that corporate taxes and those on the wealthy mirror percentages of <span class="caps">GNP</span> in 1950?  That would cut down the median tax burden.  A lot.</p>
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		<title>By: Just Pete</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/04/spreading-statistics-cont/comment-page-1/#comment-87339</link>
		<dc:creator>Just Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Aug 2005 18:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3642#comment-87339</guid>
		<description>Well, whatever you do or say, remember your own rules of political correctness. Galloway said some rather simple and straightforward truths, but crossed the line and must therefore be abandoned without even having the specifics of your condemnation being voiced. 

All Santorum does is fabricate. What do you want? You don&#039;t want unpleasant truths. You don&#039;t want unpleasant lies. So?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, whatever you do or say, remember your own rules of political correctness. Galloway said some rather simple and straightforward truths, but crossed the line and must therefore be abandoned without even having the specifics of your condemnation being voiced.</p>

	<p>All Santorum does is fabricate. What do you want? You don&#8217;t want unpleasant truths. You don&#8217;t want unpleasant lies. So?</p>
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