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	<title>Comments on: DIVORCE</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Fabian Delecto</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-89159</link>
		<dc:creator>Fabian Delecto</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Aug 2005 04:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-89159</guid>
		<description>None of you has mentioned the most important form of divorce: Divorce from reality, or, more important still, divorce from the binary reality-fiction that would enable one to be &quot;divorced from reality&quot; to begin with. The same goes for marriage. One is always-already divorced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>None of you has mentioned the most important form of divorce: Divorce from reality, or, more important still, divorce from the binary reality-fiction that would enable one to be &#8220;divorced from reality&#8221; to begin with. The same goes for marriage. One is always-already divorced.</p>
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		<title>By: Harry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88931</link>
		<dc:creator>Harry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:56:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88931</guid>
		<description>Ingrid, 
sorry, I meant something like costs of whatever decision the parents make. Should have said that. (I think that covers everything, because the costs of one decision are the benefits of the other). More later</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ingrid,<br />
sorry, I meant something like costs of whatever decision the parents make. Should have said that. (I think that covers everything, because the costs of one decision are the benefits of the other). More later</p>
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		<title>By: Sean McCann</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88854</link>
		<dc:creator>Sean McCann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 12:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88854</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Very few people are pro-divorce&lt;/i&gt;

And a lot of people get and have gotten divorced, with a lot of historical variation in theoretical and/or political encouragement.  

Joe O points to an important factor.  Divorce may not be psychologically damaging for the children of divorced parents in general (I think it is), but economically it sure is. How distressing to consider that it&#039;s yet another source of the ever widening class divide in the U.S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Very few people are pro-divorce</i></p>

	<p>And a lot of people get and have gotten divorced, with a lot of historical variation in theoretical and/or political encouragement.</p>

	<p>Joe O points to an important factor.  Divorce may not be psychologically damaging for the children of divorced parents in general (I think it is), but economically it sure is. How distressing to consider that it&#8217;s yet another source of the ever widening class divide in the U.S.</p>
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		<title>By: Simstim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88848</link>
		<dc:creator>Simstim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 09:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88848</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve always been of the opinion that we shouldn&#039;t be making it harder to divorce, rather, we should be making it harder to get married in the first place.  A lot of marriages seem to be like timeshare contracts, they seem like a great idea when you&#039;re on holiday, but in the cold light of day you&#039;ve just made one hell of a commitment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve always been of the opinion that we shouldn&#8217;t be making it harder to divorce, rather, we should be making it harder to get married in the first place.  A lot of marriages seem to be like timeshare contracts, they seem like a great idea when you&#8217;re on holiday, but in the cold light of day you&#8217;ve just made one hell of a commitment.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88754</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Aug 2005 04:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88754</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Amazon &quot;search inside&quot; feature sez:&lt;/i&gt;

&lt;i&gt;No reference to regression in this book&lt;/i&gt;

You must have loved Herrnstein and Murray&#039;s &#039;Bell Curve&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Amazon &#8220;search inside&#8221; feature sez:</i></p>

	<p><i>No reference to regression in this book</i></p>

	<p>You must have loved Herrnstein and Murray&#8217;s &#8216;Bell Curve&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Goard</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88693</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Goard</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 22:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88693</guid>
		<description>Excuse me, but how on earth hasn&#039;t genetic inheritance been raised on either this post or the source post?  It&#039;s an obvious big conflating factor, although its difficulty to quantify might make it convenient to ignore.  Moreover, even if one were to take an old-fashioned strong &quot;nurture&quot; position, it still might be the case that parents who are prone to divorce tend to be prone to child-rearing that is poor in other respects.  Even with a large sample, we shouldn&#039;t rely too much on the self-reports of grown children of divorce; they are likely to be heavily biassed toward reporting a major event as the locus of childhood trauma, rather than a diffuse pattern of parenting traits.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Excuse me, but how on earth hasn&#8217;t genetic inheritance been raised on either this post or the source post?  It&#8217;s an obvious big conflating factor, although its difficulty to quantify might make it convenient to ignore.  Moreover, even if one were to take an old-fashioned strong &#8220;nurture&#8221; position, it still might be the case that parents who are prone to divorce tend to be prone to child-rearing that is poor in other respects.  Even with a large sample, we shouldn&#8217;t rely too much on the self-reports of grown children of divorce; they are likely to be heavily biassed toward reporting a major event as the locus of childhood trauma, rather than a diffuse pattern of parenting traits.</p>
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		<title>By: paul</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88653</link>
		<dc:creator>paul</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:46:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88653</guid>
		<description>That NYT article linked by joe is interesting for the way it tiptoes around the class-and-ideology elephant. It&#039;s obviously too glib to say simply that the divorce rate started going down not that long after the population of married couples started including a large cohort of women for whom marriage wasn&#039;t a compulsory (and terminal) career decision. Or that the drop among college-educated (and hence presumably at least somewhat-later-married) women indicates the value of having at least some clue about what you&#039;re doing before ostensibly getting hitched for life. But recent reporting that divorce rates are indistinguishable between self-identified conservative christians and more liberal groups does suggest that some kind of divide is opening up. It would be interesting to see some kind of cross-tab of divorce results along similar lines.

(Of course, it&#039;s also possible that current relationship styles simply aren&#039;t being captured by the available statistics -- if, instead of just marriages, there was a register available of all longterm romantic relationships involving cohabitation or commingling of property and assets, a rather different picture might emerge.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That <span class="caps">NYT</span> article linked by joe is interesting for the way it tiptoes around the class-and-ideology elephant. It&#8217;s obviously too glib to say simply that the divorce rate started going down not that long after the population of married couples started including a large cohort of women for whom marriage wasn&#8217;t a compulsory (and terminal) career decision. Or that the drop among college-educated (and hence presumably at least somewhat-later-married) women indicates the value of having at least some clue about what you&#8217;re doing before ostensibly getting hitched for life. But recent reporting that divorce rates are indistinguishable between self-identified conservative christians and more liberal groups does suggest that some kind of divide is opening up. It would be interesting to see some kind of cross-tab of divorce results along similar lines.</p>

	<p>(Of course, it&#8217;s also possible that current relationship styles simply aren&#8217;t being captured by the available statistics&#8212;if, instead of just marriages, there was a register available of all longterm romantic relationships involving cohabitation or commingling of property and assets, a rather different picture might emerge.)</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88648</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88648</guid>
		<description>My son is one of those who is reluctant to get married because his parents divorced, but I believe that when and if he marries he&#039;ll do a good job of it. Part of his reluctance is due to the fact that I explained to him how much harm comes from getting married when you&#039;re not ready for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My son is one of those who is reluctant to get married because his parents divorced, but I believe that when and if he marries he&#8217;ll do a good job of it. Part of his reluctance is due to the fact that I explained to him how much harm comes from getting married when you&#8217;re not ready for it.</p>
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		<title>By: ingrid</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88646</link>
		<dc:creator>ingrid</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88646</guid>
		<description>Harry, if some of the costs are ignored by the studies of divorce, are these studies also not ignoring some of the benefits? Or does the domain of &quot;unmeasurable and ignored things&quot; only include costs, and not benefits?

I agree with the comment that personal stories are just bad &quot;evidence&quot; to draw any generalised conclusions. That doesn&#039;t mean they can not provide some sort of insights. But given that there is so much morality and ideology involved in discussions about divorce, families, etc., people tend to interpret &quot;case stories&quot; so that it tends to fit with their own norms, values, and ideology.

I think it&#039;s good to have a discussion about divorce, but perhaps we should first have a discussion about marriage and procreation. People should think twice before getting married, and think much longer/harder before getting children. There are too many people getting married in order to save a disfunctional relationship, and too many children being born in an attempt to &quot;save&quot; a marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry, if some of the costs are ignored by the studies of divorce, are these studies also not ignoring some of the benefits? Or does the domain of &#8220;unmeasurable and ignored things&#8221; only include costs, and not benefits?</p>

	<p>I agree with the comment that personal stories are just bad &#8220;evidence&#8221; to draw any generalised conclusions. That doesn&#8217;t mean they can not provide some sort of insights. But given that there is so much morality and ideology involved in discussions about divorce, families, etc., people tend to interpret &#8220;case stories&#8221; so that it tends to fit with their own norms, values, and ideology.</p>

	<p>I think it&#8217;s good to have a discussion about divorce, but perhaps we should first have a discussion about marriage and procreation. People should think twice before getting married, and think much longer/harder before getting children. There are too many people getting married in order to save a disfunctional relationship, and too many children being born in an attempt to &#8220;save&#8221; a marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: joe o</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88645</link>
		<dc:creator>joe o</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 18:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88645</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.divorcereform.org/nyt05.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; This &lt;/a&gt; new york times article talks about the decline of the divorce rate:

&gt;Researchers say that the small drop in the overall divorce rate is caused by a steep decline in the rate among college graduates. As a result,a &quot;divorce divide&quot; has opened up between those with and without college degrees, said Dr. Steven P. Martin, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Maryland.

&gt;&quot;Families with highly educated mothers and families with less educated mothers are clearly moving in opposite directions,&quot; Dr. Martin wrote in a paper that has not yet been published but has been presented and widely discussed at scientific meetings.

&gt;As the overall divorce rates shot up from the early 1960&#039;s through the late 1970&#039;s, Dr. Martin found, the divorce rate for women with college degrees and those without moved in lockstep, with graduates consistently having about one-third to one-fourth the divorce rate of nongraduates.

&gt;But since 1980, the two groups have taken diverging paths. Women without undergraduate degrees have remained at about the same rate, their risk of divorce or separation within the first 10 years of marriage hovering at around 35 percent. But for college graduates, the divorce rate in the first 10 years of marriage has plummeted to just over 16 percent of those married between 1990 and 1994 from 27 percent of those married between 1975 and 1979.  

To a certain extent, for the upper middle class of  certain age, the question &quot;Is divorce bad?&quot; is similar to the question &quot;Are toy guns bad?&quot;; it isn&#039;t a matter of regression but of habitus.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.divorcereform.org/nyt05.html" rel="nofollow"> This </a> new york times article talks about the decline of the divorce rate:</p>

	<p>>Researchers say that the small drop in the overall divorce rate is caused by a steep decline in the rate among college graduates. As a result,a &#8220;divorce divide&#8221; has opened up between those with and without college degrees, said Dr. Steven P. Martin, an assistant professor of sociology at the University of Maryland.</p>

	<p>>&#8221;Families with highly educated mothers and families with less educated mothers are clearly moving in opposite directions,&#8221; Dr. Martin wrote in a paper that has not yet been published but has been presented and widely discussed at scientific meetings.</p>

	<p>>As the overall divorce rates shot up from the early 1960&#8217;s through the late 1970&#8217;s, Dr. Martin found, the divorce rate for women with college degrees and those without moved in lockstep, with graduates consistently having about one-third to one-fourth the divorce rate of nongraduates.</p>

	<p>>But since 1980, the two groups have taken diverging paths. Women without undergraduate degrees have remained at about the same rate, their risk of divorce or separation within the first 10 years of marriage hovering at around 35 percent. But for college graduates, the divorce rate in the first 10 years of marriage has plummeted to just over 16 percent of those married between 1990 and 1994 from 27 percent of those married between 1975 and 1979.</p>

	<p>To a certain extent, for the upper middle class of  certain age, the question &#8220;Is divorce bad?&#8221; is similar to the question &#8220;Are toy guns bad?&#8221;; it isn&#8217;t a matter of regression but of habitus.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88640</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88640</guid>
		<description>Formal marriage being an obsolete and basically irrational idea in the first place, how bad can divorce be?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Formal marriage being an obsolete and basically irrational idea in the first place, how bad can divorce be?</p>
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		<title>By: Sacha Sokoloski</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88637</link>
		<dc:creator>Sacha Sokoloski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:43:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88637</guid>
		<description>I guess, besides my personal anecdotal evidence that the most miserable years of my childhood were the times prior to the two diverces I &quot;suffered&quot; through (the first I had no idea what was going on, the second I could hardly wait for it to happen), besides the very strange notion (maybe just to me) that two people should be made miserable for the hyperbolic sensitivity of children (I&#039;ve seen children undramatically suffer through trauma that would tip most adults over the edge), what really gets me is...

Why people are still so commited to marriage and divorce? I&#039;m probably just going to come off as a cliched academic elitest here, but cultural and anthropological evidence seems to suggest that one of the most varied parameters in human society are the norms concerning family. Sometimes the male would be equal partner to the female, and sometimes he wouldn&#039;t even be present. Sometimes the child was exclusively the domain of the particular family, and other times it was the equal responsibilty of the whole community.

And more topically, the life long monogomous thread that has weaved its way through many societies still loses its unversality when compared to the tribes/cultures/whatever for whom sexual reproduction was simply a rather normal occurence, which demanded no extreme reorganization of the lives of the parents.

I guess what I&#039;m trying to get at is that I simply don&#039;t buy into the idea that children being made aware that their parents love for each other is not, in fact, as eternal as the rising sun, need not be a life shattering experience. Certainly, it&#039;ll probably be surprising, but unless the parents have been indoctrinating the kid into buying into their relationship as much as they did, I expect the child in question could take it with a good cry, and some well meaning TLC.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I guess, besides my personal anecdotal evidence that the most miserable years of my childhood were the times prior to the two diverces I &#8220;suffered&#8221; through (the first I had no idea what was going on, the second I could hardly wait for it to happen), besides the very strange notion (maybe just to me) that two people should be made miserable for the hyperbolic sensitivity of children (I&#8217;ve seen children undramatically suffer through trauma that would tip most adults over the edge), what really gets me is&#8230;</p>

	<p>Why people are still so commited to marriage and divorce? I&#8217;m probably just going to come off as a cliched academic elitest here, but cultural and anthropological evidence seems to suggest that one of the most varied parameters in human society are the norms concerning family. Sometimes the male would be equal partner to the female, and sometimes he wouldn&#8217;t even be present. Sometimes the child was exclusively the domain of the particular family, and other times it was the equal responsibilty of the whole community.</p>

	<p>And more topically, the life long monogomous thread that has weaved its way through many societies still loses its unversality when compared to the tribes/cultures/whatever for whom sexual reproduction was simply a rather normal occurence, which demanded no extreme reorganization of the lives of the parents.</p>

	<p>I guess what I&#8217;m trying to get at is that I simply don&#8217;t buy into the idea that children being made aware that their parents love for each other is not, in fact, as eternal as the rising sun, need not be a life shattering experience. Certainly, it&#8217;ll probably be surprising, but unless the parents have been indoctrinating the kid into buying into their relationship as much as they did, I expect the child in question could take it with a good cry, and some well meaning <span class="caps">TLC</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: modestproposal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88635</link>
		<dc:creator>modestproposal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88635</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; I’ve always tended to the opinion that divorce is bad for kids, but I didn’t want to join the pile-on. In the end I wanted to say “Yes, but…” &lt;/i&gt;

well to be devil&#039;s advocate, divorce does create more liberals. single mothers with children are MUCH more likely to vote for the left. so are unmarried women in general (and men though not as much). so if one were interested in having the left regain political power, one would want more divorce. 

so sure, it&#039;s worse for the kids...but think about the greater good, people!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> I&#8217;ve always tended to the opinion that divorce is bad for kids, but I didn&#8217;t want to join the pile-on. In the end I wanted to say &#8220;Yes, but&#8230;&#8221; </i></p>

	<p>well to be devil&#8217;s advocate, divorce does create more liberals. single mothers with children are <span class="caps">MUCH</span> more likely to vote for the left. so are unmarried women in general (and men though not as much). so if one were interested in having the left regain political power, one would want more divorce.</p>

	<p>so sure, it&#8217;s worse for the kids&#8230;but think about the greater good, people!</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88633</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:30:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88633</guid>
		<description>Another element oddly missing in the more self-righteous comments on that thread is any recognition of the fact that &quot;working on the marriage&quot; requires that BOTH spouses be sincerely willing to do so. I suppose such subtleties tend to get lost in the midst of the &quot;moral revival&quot; we&#039;re allegedly experiencing in the US.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another element oddly missing in the more self-righteous comments on that thread is any recognition of the fact that &#8220;working on the marriage&#8221; requires that <span class="caps">BOTH</span> spouses be sincerely willing to do so. I suppose such subtleties tend to get lost in the midst of the &#8220;moral revival&#8221; we&#8217;re allegedly experiencing in the US.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/comment-page-1/#comment-88630</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Aug 2005 17:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/divorce/#comment-88630</guid>
		<description>BTW, the near-unanimity comes from Laura&#039;s massive traffic attack coming from Instapundit. The dissenters (JennyD and dsquared) are regular readers of hers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span>, the near-unanimity comes from Laura&#8217;s massive traffic attack coming from Instapundit. The dissenters (JennyD and dsquared) are regular readers of hers.</p>
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