Comments on: Or, we had to destroy the country in order to save it http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 10:56:07 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-89442 jet Sat, 13 Aug 2005 20:22:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-89442 Abb1, It has <strong>nothing</strong> to do with savages. Everyone is afraid of the unknown. As an example of fear of the unknown a little closer to home, how long did it take for Americans to start flying in the same numbers after 9/11 as before 9/11? How long before they realized that Al Qaeda wasn't capable of striking anywhere anytime? How long did it take the Iraqis to realize that the US military wasn't capable of crushing any insurgency at anytime? Boot's point is that if the Sunnis would have seen a little more destruction it would have taken them long enough that a working government could have been put in place. I think that's wrong, but still worth a thought. Abb1,
It has nothing to do with savages. Everyone is afraid of the unknown. As an example of fear of the unknown a little closer to home, how long did it take for Americans to start flying in the same numbers after 9/11 as before 9/11? How long before they realized that Al Qaeda wasn’t capable of striking anywhere anytime? How long did it take the Iraqis to realize that the US military wasn’t capable of crushing any insurgency at anytime?

Boot’s point is that if the Sunnis would have seen a little more destruction it would have taken them long enough that a working government could have been put in place. I think that’s wrong, but still worth a thought.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-89261 abb1 Sat, 13 Aug 2005 09:45:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-89261 First you describe them as savages and then that's not what you meant and I am a jackass. Make up your mind, buddy. Btw, I don't ascribe this to you necessarily but to Boot and other neocons, you just expressed the spirit of it quite well, so what's the problem? First you describe them as savages and then that’s not what you meant and I am a jackass. Make up your mind, buddy.

Btw, I don’t ascribe this to you necessarily but to Boot and other neocons, you just expressed the spirit of it quite well, so what’s the problem?

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-89147 jet Sat, 13 Aug 2005 02:24:35 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-89147 Abb1, That was obviously not what I meant you jackass, so yeah, what Soru said. And here I was thinking you were becoming reasonable and interesting. Abb1,
That was obviously not what I meant you jackass, so yeah, what Soru said.

And here I was thinking you were becoming reasonable and interesting.

]]> By: soru http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-89070 soru Fri, 12 Aug 2005 23:38:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-89070 <i>Ah, yes, savages to tame. The ‘half-devil and half-child’ thing again.</i> Thoughts like that are awfully close to the surface of your mind, aren't they? soru Ah, yes, savages to tame. The ‘half-devil and half-child’ thing again.

Thoughts like that are awfully close to the surface of your mind, aren’t they?

soru

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-89018 abb1 Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:56:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-89018 Ah, yes, savages to tame. The 'half-devil and half-child' thing again. Ah, yes, savages to tame. The ‘half-devil and half-child’ thing again.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88992 jet Fri, 12 Aug 2005 19:05:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88992 Abb1, A legion shows up all organized and shiny and the painted people are scared and ready to surrender. Once a few Romans are lieing dead on the ground they're not so scary and the painted people stop thinking about surrender. But that's only a guess, I'm far from an expert. I just think that is what Boot and others are proposing. Abb1,
A legion shows up all organized and shiny and the painted people are scared and ready to surrender. Once a few Romans are lieing dead on the ground they’re not so scary and the painted people stop thinking about surrender.

But that’s only a guess, I’m far from an expert. I just think that is what Boot and others are proposing.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88968 abb1 Fri, 12 Aug 2005 18:11:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88968 I don't understand why Shock-and-Awes in the subsequent stages don't count. I don’t understand why Shock-and-Awes in the subsequent stages don’t count.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88963 jet Fri, 12 Aug 2005 17:51:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88963 Barry, Yes, I think everyone over the age of 2 understands that 500lb's to 2000lb's of metal casing filled with material more explosive than C-4 is quite dangerous. The point was that most of the fighting, destruction, and dieing was done in Southern Iraq. No one is arguing that the rest of Iraq didn't see fighting, only that it was to a much lesser scale. Abb1, There is a point to this debate. Boot thinks that if the Sunnis had seen more Shock and Awe in the initial stages they would have been shaken and quickly conceded. This is a valid supposition which is worthy of debate since it proposes that if a choice of more violence would have been selected, fewer overall people would have died, which is a moral choice. But given that it was the Sunnis doing most of the fighting in the Iraq-Iran war, Boot is obviously overestimating their susceptibility to intimidation, even though he might have a point that more violence during the invasion may have sped the Sunnis through the insurgency and into diplomacy. This is highly unlikely though, and not probable enough to kill civilians for in my own humble opinion ;) Barry,
Yes, I think everyone over the age of 2 understands that 500lb’s to 2000lb’s of metal casing filled with material more explosive than C-4 is quite dangerous. The point was that most of the fighting, destruction, and dieing was done in Southern Iraq. No one is arguing that the rest of Iraq didn’t see fighting, only that it was to a much lesser scale.

Abb1,
There is a point to this debate. Boot thinks that if the Sunnis had seen more Shock and Awe in the initial stages they would have been shaken and quickly conceded. This is a valid supposition which is worthy of debate since it proposes that if a choice of more violence would have been selected, fewer overall people would have died, which is a moral choice. But given that it was the Sunnis doing most of the fighting in the Iraq-Iran war, Boot is obviously overestimating their susceptibility to intimidation, even though he might have a point that more violence during the invasion may have sped the Sunnis through the insurgency and into diplomacy. This is highly unlikely though, and not probable enough to kill civilians for in my own humble opinion ;)

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88954 Barry Fri, 12 Aug 2005 16:44:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88954 Jet, do you understand that aerial bombs are quite destructive, down there on the ground? They might look like cool video game effects, but they are actually quite dangerous. Jet, do you understand that aerial bombs are quite destructive, down there on the ground? They might look like cool video game effects, but they are actually quite dangerous.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88933 abb1 Fri, 12 Aug 2005 15:15:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88933 This is silly; clearly the Sunni areas: Fallujah, Samarra, Tikrit, suffered much more US-inflicted damage and violence over the past couple of years. And if it's only the first few weeks of the conflict that count, then it's too late anyway; can't rewind to 2003 and bomb and kill more of them back then. So, sounds like it's hopeless now. This is silly; clearly the Sunni areas: Fallujah, Samarra, Tikrit, suffered much more US-inflicted damage and violence over the past couple of years.

And if it’s only the first few weeks of the conflict that count, then it’s too late anyway; can’t rewind to 2003 and bomb and kill more of them back then. So, sounds like it’s hopeless now.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88930 jet Fri, 12 Aug 2005 14:52:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88930 Barry, "The brunt of..." It appears you need to reference a dictionary. Unless you are claiming that the Sunni area received a comparable amount of conflict as the Shi'ite? If that's the case then your comment doubly reflects upon you ;) Barry,
“The brunt of…”
It appears you need to reference a dictionary.

Unless you are claiming that the Sunni area received a comparable amount of conflict as the Shi’ite? If that’s the case then your comment doubly reflects upon you ;)

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88884 Barry Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:40:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88884 Omri, a memory popped into my head after posting - do you remember the TV footage of the first night of the war? "Shock and Awe"? The many, many explosions over Badghdad? (all of which, I'm sure, were precision-guided missiles with precision blast and shapnel which only killed Evildoers) Omri, a memory popped into my head after posting – do you remember the TV footage of the first night of the war? “Shock and Awe”? The many, many explosions over Badghdad? (all of which, I’m sure, were precision-guided missiles with precision blast and shapnel which only killed Evildoers)

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88867 Barry Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:33:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88867 Posted by Omri: "Do you people not recall your geography? The brunt of the fighting and collateral damage in the war took place in the Shi’a south of the country." Except for aerial bombardment, but how bad could that be? "The Sunni triangle was relatively unscathed, at first. " Except for aerial bombardment, but how bad could that be? Posted by Omri:

“Do you people not recall your geography? The brunt of the fighting and collateral damage in the war took place in the Shi’a south of the country.”

Except for aerial bombardment, but how bad could that be?

“The Sunni triangle was relatively unscathed, at first. ”

Except for aerial bombardment, but how bad could that be?

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88863 jet Fri, 12 Aug 2005 13:32:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88863 Bemannen Sie alle zu leicht wächst locker und mildert, wählt er bald Ruhe zu jedem möglichem Preis und also mag ich ihn mit einem Gefährten zusammenpassen, um die Zwei zu spielen, sich zu rühren und zu verleiten. Bemannen Sie alle zu leicht wächst locker und mildert, wählt er bald Ruhe zu jedem möglichem Preis und also mag ich ihn mit einem Gefährten zusammenpassen, um die Zwei zu spielen, sich zu rühren und zu verleiten.

]]> By: bad Jim http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/10/or-we-had-to-destroy-the-country-in-order-to-save-it/comment-page-2/#comment-88850 bad Jim Fri, 12 Aug 2005 10:28:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3659#comment-88850 F: Nun gut wer bist du denn? M: Ein Teil von jener Kraft, die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft. F: Was ist mit diesem Rätselwort gemeint? M: Ich bin der Geist, der stets verneint! Und das mit Recht, denn alles, was ensteht, ist wert, daß es zugrunde geht! F: Nun gut wer bist du denn?

M: Ein Teil von jener Kraft,
die stets das Böse will und stets das Gute schafft.

F: Was ist mit diesem Rätselwort gemeint?

M: Ich bin der Geist, der stets verneint!
Und das mit Recht, denn alles, was ensteht,
ist wert, daß es zugrunde geht!

]]>