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	<title>Comments on: Taking a Stand</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy&#8217;s Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Libertarian Litmus Test</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-118449</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy&#8217;s Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Libertarian Litmus Test</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-118449</guid>
		<description>[...] Over at Volokh, the puppy blood is flying again. This time, it&#8217;s Juan Non-Volokh who defends America&#8217;s network of secret, overseas torture centers against the vicious charge that they resemble Soviet gulags: I would like to underline my ultimate position: Not every mass murder is comparable to the Holocaust. By the same token, not every secret detention is comparable to the Gulag. In my view, the overuse of such comparisons undermines our ability to recognize the varying magnitudes of various evils. Such hyperbole deadens the sensitivity to moral distinctions in public discourse. Again, I am not excusing the conduct of our government. Some of the allegations are quite serious and, if true, merit condemnation, but that does not make Gitmo and other U.S. facilities equivalent to the Soviet Gulag. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Over at Volokh, the puppy blood is flying again. This time, it&#8217;s Juan Non-Volokh who defends America&#8217;s network of secret, overseas torture centers against the vicious charge that they resemble Soviet gulags: I would like to underline my ultimate position: Not every mass murder is comparable to the Holocaust. By the same token, not every secret detention is comparable to the Gulag. In my view, the overuse of such comparisons undermines our ability to recognize the varying magnitudes of various evils. Such hyperbole deadens the sensitivity to moral distinctions in public discourse. Again, I am not excusing the conduct of our government. Some of the allegations are quite serious and, if true, merit condemnation, but that does not make Gitmo and other U.S. facilities equivalent to the Soviet Gulag. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Libertarian Litmus Test</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-118419</link>
		<dc:creator>Crooked Timber &#187; &#187; Libertarian Litmus Test</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 04:19:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-118419</guid>
		<description>[...] Over at Volokh, the puppy blood is flying again. This time, it&#8217;s Juan Non-Volokh who defends America&#8217;s network of secret, overseas torture centers against the vicious charge that they resemble Soviet gulags: I would like to underline my ultimate position: Not every mass murder is comparable to the Holocaust. By the same token, not every secret detention is comparable to the Gulag. In my view, the overuse of such comparisons undermines our ability to recognize the varying magnitudes of various evils. Such hyperbole deadens the sensitivity to moral distinctions in public discourse. Again, I am not excusing the conduct of our government. Some of the allegations are quite serious and, if true, merit condemnation, but that does not make Gitmo and other U.S. facilities equivalent to the Soviet Gulag. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Over at Volokh, the puppy blood is flying again. This time, it&#8217;s Juan Non-Volokh who defends America&#8217;s network of secret, overseas torture centers against the vicious charge that they resemble Soviet gulags: I would like to underline my ultimate position: Not every mass murder is comparable to the Holocaust. By the same token, not every secret detention is comparable to the Gulag. In my view, the overuse of such comparisons undermines our ability to recognize the varying magnitudes of various evils. Such hyperbole deadens the sensitivity to moral distinctions in public discourse. Again, I am not excusing the conduct of our government. Some of the allegations are quite serious and, if true, merit condemnation, but that does not make Gitmo and other U.S. facilities equivalent to the Soviet Gulag. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Burton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-91138</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Aug 2005 22:42:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-91138</guid>
		<description>And yet, there is good comedy and bad comedy, and there are (at least sometimes) identifiable reasons why some attempts at comedy succeed and others fail. So comedy is no more exempt from criticism than any other genre. Were we discussing Mark Steyn, perhaps harry and henry would be more inclined to agree with me on this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And yet, there is good comedy and bad comedy, and there are (at least sometimes) identifiable reasons why some attempts at comedy succeed and others fail. So comedy is no more exempt from criticism than any other genre. Were we discussing Mark Steyn, perhaps harry and henry would be more inclined to agree with me on this.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-90577</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:20:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-90577</guid>
		<description>From James Wood, &quot;Introduction,&quot; _The Irresponsible Self: On Laughter and the Novel_

bq. Particular derision is reserved for the formal criticism of comedy, which seems to most sensible people like an unwitting bad joke, since nothing is funnier than solemnity about laughter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From James Wood, &#8220;Introduction,&#8221; <em>The Irresponsible Self: On Laughter and the Novel</em></p>

	<blockquote>Particular derision is reserved for the formal criticism of comedy, which seems to most sensible people like an unwitting bad joke, since nothing is funnier than solemnity about laughter.</blockquote>
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		<title>By: jasmindad</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-90195</link>
		<dc:creator>jasmindad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 00:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-90195</guid>
		<description>There are lots of reasons why patriotic Americans would support the US getting out from Iraq now. It&#039;s absurd to say that such people &quot;support the insurgency.&quot; First, many are becoming convinced that the odds of beating Al Quaeda will be higher if the US got out of Iraq.  Second, on balance, the debacle in Iraq and the excessive financial and human cost of the adventure can help bring to the US (and American citizens) a sense of realism about their relative power, which in the long run can only be good for the US. If the debacle in Iraq saves the US from a reckless engagement in North Korea -- an engagement whose costs could dwarf the costs in Iraq --, as a patriot, I think that would be a good price to pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There are lots of reasons why patriotic Americans would support the US getting out from Iraq now. It&#8217;s absurd to say that such people &#8220;support the insurgency.&#8221; First, many are becoming convinced that the odds of beating Al Quaeda will be higher if the US got out of Iraq.  Second, on balance, the debacle in Iraq and the excessive financial and human cost of the adventure can help bring to the <span class="caps">US </span>(and American citizens) a sense of realism about their relative power, which in the long run can only be good for the US. If the debacle in Iraq saves the US from a reckless engagement in North Korea&#8212;an engagement whose costs could dwarf the costs in Iraq&#8212;, as a patriot, I think that would be a good price to pay.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Burton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-90147</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Burton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 23:13:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-90147</guid>
		<description>harry b - ideally, of course, one would respond to a weak satire with an equally light-hearted but more deadly soap bubble of ones own.

Alas, I have not the talent - as would become all too apparent were I to try. So I don&#039;t try.

On the whole, I think probably Ms. Waring shouldn&#039;t either. But *de gustibus*.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>harry b &#8211; ideally, of course, one would respond to a weak satire with an equally light-hearted but more deadly soap bubble of ones own.</p>

	<p>Alas, I have not the talent &#8211; as would become all too apparent were I to try. So I don&#8217;t try.</p>

	<p>On the whole, I think probably Ms. Waring shouldn&#8217;t either. But <strong>de gustibus</strong>.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-90074</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 17:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-90074</guid>
		<description>The guy that made comments about nuking Mecca was, like, a Republican Congressman or something, right?  I think the Republican response to the uproar over that was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with nuking Mecca, given the right circumstance. The right circumstances being an Islamic nuke in the US, regardless of where exactly the Islamic nuke came from.

Maybe if there is a difference in reactions to this sort of thing, the reason may be found in the fact that one group is capable of shame, and the other is not.

If you don&#039;t think drinking puppy blood is a big deal, then you don&#039;t much care when someone paints you with the puppy blood brush, even if you do not particularly care for puppy blood yourself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The guy that made comments about nuking Mecca was, like, a Republican Congressman or something, right?  I think the Republican response to the uproar over that was that there was absolutely nothing wrong with nuking Mecca, given the right circumstance. The right circumstances being an Islamic nuke in the US, regardless of where exactly the Islamic nuke came from.</p>

	<p>Maybe if there is a difference in reactions to this sort of thing, the reason may be found in the fact that one group is capable of shame, and the other is not.</p>

	<p>If you don&#8217;t think drinking puppy blood is a big deal, then you don&#8217;t much care when someone paints you with the puppy blood brush, even if you do not particularly care for puppy blood yourself.</p>
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		<title>By: chris from boca</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89989</link>
		<dc:creator>chris from boca</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 15:28:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89989</guid>
		<description>http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/emperor.gif

exhibit 1:  zel miller</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/emperor.gif" rel="nofollow">http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/emperor.gif</a></p>

	<p>exhibit 1:  zel miller</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89973</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 13:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89973</guid>
		<description>Steve, you&#039;re trying to dent a feather duster with a sledgehammer, and seeing you try is, indeed, funnier than Belle&#039;s post (which I found funny).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve, you&#8217;re trying to dent a feather duster with a sledgehammer, and seeing you try is, indeed, funnier than Belle&#8217;s post (which I found funny).</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89881</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 08:35:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89881</guid>
		<description>Kervick, that was simply monumental. Maximum lobster. I&#039;m awestruck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kervick, that was simply monumental. Maximum lobster. I&#8217;m awestruck.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89785</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 05:42:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89785</guid>
		<description>Steve, how old can anyone be to engage in this conversation here? No more than 14 or no less than 76, I&#039;d think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve, how old can anyone be to engage in this conversation here? No more than 14 or no less than 76, I&#8217;d think.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Kervick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89781</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Kervick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 02:09:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89781</guid>
		<description>I think Democrats should resist the urge to engage in a blanket condemnation of puppy blood drinking, and adopt a more muscular, &lt;i&gt;nuanced view&lt;/i&gt; of puppicide.

It&#039;s not the blood drinking itself that is wrong.  A puppy is indeed a noble meal, and Bush&#039;s call to dig in was justified, impure though his motives might have been.  Even Wilson, Roosevelt and Truman were known to tipple a terrier, lap up a lab or slake their thirts with a fine young &lt;i&gt;Nouveau Newfoundland&lt;/i&gt; from time to time. What red blooded American&#039;s pulse does not quicken as a puppy-pulse slows?

No, it is for their inadequate preparation and blundering execution that the Republicans must be called to account!  These were the wrong puppies, from the wrong pound at the wrong time.  Yet now that the meal is underway, we need &lt;i&gt;more bowls&lt;/i&gt; to collect the gushing vital fluid of these hounds.  And if we are destined to gargle canine &lt;i&gt;sangre&lt;/i&gt;, our American slurpers must be outfitted with the finest napkins available, the newest laser-sharpened knives, and protective goggles lest they be hit in the eyes with stinging droplets of the gushing red stuff.

If we fail to back this latest pooch picnic unreservedly and unequivocally, I fear the American public will never again trust us with the imprtant task of small mammal carnovory!  Of course, of course ... we were &lt;i&gt;right&lt;/i&gt; to call for an end to that misguided slaughter of the gerbils in the 60&#039;s.  The preparers of that meal lied to the American public, hiding from them secret scientific findings that showed gerbil blood was as indigestible as it was unappetizing.

But puppies are an entirely different matter.  America was indeed founded on the principle of the liberal pursuit of puppy hemoglobin, and we are presented with a unique, historical moment in which no rival can stand in our path as we round up and fatally dispatch our fill of tail-waggers.

That political victory in the tragic case of the gerbils was purchased with a double-edged sword, and our short-term win exacted a painful long-term price.  While recognizing the rightness of our gastronomic recommendations, the public irrationally blamed us for their own indigestion. If we now let the lingering Small Critter Syndrome of the 60&#039;s prevents us from taking a good healthy gulp at the present Fido-feast, we may very well be painted as puppy-lovers ... or even vegetarians! ... by our Republican opponets.

Even now, they are preparing their &quot;Milk Bone in the back&quot; defense, should we fail in our national effort to hold down the nutritious doggy nectar on offer.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think Democrats should resist the urge to engage in a blanket condemnation of puppy blood drinking, and adopt a more muscular, <i>nuanced view</i> of puppicide.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s not the blood drinking itself that is wrong.  A puppy is indeed a noble meal, and Bush&#8217;s call to dig in was justified, impure though his motives might have been.  Even Wilson, Roosevelt and Truman were known to tipple a terrier, lap up a lab or slake their thirts with a fine young <i>Nouveau Newfoundland</i> from time to time. What red blooded American&#8217;s pulse does not quicken as a puppy-pulse slows?</p>

	<p>No, it is for their inadequate preparation and blundering execution that the Republicans must be called to account!  These were the wrong puppies, from the wrong pound at the wrong time.  Yet now that the meal is underway, we need <i>more bowls</i> to collect the gushing vital fluid of these hounds.  And if we are destined to gargle canine <i>sangre</i>, our American slurpers must be outfitted with the finest napkins available, the newest laser-sharpened knives, and protective goggles lest they be hit in the eyes with stinging droplets of the gushing red stuff.</p>

	<p>If we fail to back this latest pooch picnic unreservedly and unequivocally, I fear the American public will never again trust us with the imprtant task of small mammal carnovory!  Of course, of course &#8230; we were <i>right</i> to call for an end to that misguided slaughter of the gerbils in the 60&#8217;s.  The preparers of that meal lied to the American public, hiding from them secret scientific findings that showed gerbil blood was as indigestible as it was unappetizing.</p>

	<p>But puppies are an entirely different matter.  America was indeed founded on the principle of the liberal pursuit of puppy hemoglobin, and we are presented with a unique, historical moment in which no rival can stand in our path as we round up and fatally dispatch our fill of tail-waggers.</p>

	<p>That political victory in the tragic case of the gerbils was purchased with a double-edged sword, and our short-term win exacted a painful long-term price.  While recognizing the rightness of our gastronomic recommendations, the public irrationally blamed us for their own indigestion. If we now let the lingering Small Critter Syndrome of the 60&#8217;s prevents us from taking a good healthy gulp at the present Fido-feast, we may very well be painted as puppy-lovers &#8230; or even vegetarians! &#8230; by our Republican opponets.</p>

	<p>Even now, they are preparing their &#8220;Milk Bone in the back&#8221; defense, should we fail in our national effort to hold down the nutritious doggy nectar on offer.</p>
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		<title>By: PZ Myers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89762</link>
		<dc:creator>PZ Myers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89762</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sorry to muddy the waters here, but as someone who &lt;i&gt;has&lt;/i&gt; bled puppies, in addition to decapitating cats, castrating fish, scooping the eyes out of various animals, and pureeing embryos, I am troubled by the blanket condemnation of people who may have a &lt;i&gt;perfectly good reasons&lt;/i&gt; for engaging in those activities.

Tell me, what is &lt;i&gt;objectively wrong&lt;/i&gt; with good Republicans choosing to slake their unholy thirst with the warm life&#039;s blood of the innocent? Given that it is an unpopular act, it must be not only amply warranted, but &lt;i&gt;necessary&lt;/i&gt;. That they do it at all is therefore a service to America, and we should be grateful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m sorry to muddy the waters here, but as someone who <i>has</i> bled puppies, in addition to decapitating cats, castrating fish, scooping the eyes out of various animals, and pureeing embryos, I am troubled by the blanket condemnation of people who may have a <i>perfectly good reasons</i> for engaging in those activities.</p>

	<p>Tell me, what is <i>objectively wrong</i> with good Republicans choosing to slake their unholy thirst with the warm life&#8217;s blood of the innocent? Given that it is an unpopular act, it must be not only amply warranted, but <i>necessary</i>. That they do it at all is therefore a service to America, and we should be grateful.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89703</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89703</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I would have to say that anyone who tries to explain, account for, or otherwise comprehend their behavior in drinking said puppy blood is really just defending that behavior and minimizing its eviltudinousness.&lt;/i&gt;

Next thing you know they&#039;ll be offering them therapy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I would have to say that anyone who tries to explain, account for, or otherwise comprehend their behavior in drinking said puppy blood is really just defending that behavior and minimizing its eviltudinousness.</i></p>

	<p>Next thing you know they&#8217;ll be offering them therapy.</p>
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		<title>By: gzombie</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/comment-page-2/#comment-89688</link>
		<dc:creator>gzombie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 23:13:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/13/taking-a-stand/#comment-89688</guid>
		<description>I believe that I understand what you&#039;re saying, Steve.

&lt;i&gt;...the point of which seemed to be that those on the other side would take understandable umbrage were someone on the left to post something targeting some small-to-nonexistent group of right wing extremists.&lt;/i&gt;

I disagree. I think the point of Belle&#039;s post is the what we find in the Volokh post is a silly thing to post in the first place.

&lt;i&gt;I simply can’t come up with any instances where reasonable right-wingers have taken this routine sort of thing as an attack on themselves&lt;/i&gt;

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I believe that I understand what you&#8217;re saying, Steve.</p>

	<p><i>&#8230;the point of which seemed to be that those on the other side would take understandable umbrage were someone on the left to post something targeting some small-to-nonexistent group of right wing extremists.</i></p>

	<p>I disagree. I think the point of Belle&#8217;s post is the what we find in the Volokh post is a silly thing to post in the first place.</p>

	<p><i>I simply can&#8217;t come up with any instances where reasonable right-wingers have taken this routine sort of thing as an attack on themselves</i></p>

	<p>Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.</p>
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