Comments on: Money, Mouth http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 18:59:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: No Preference http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92445 No Preference Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:43:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92445 <i>The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end</i> Yes. Clear and incorrect. The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end

Yes. Clear and incorrect.

]]> By: jonst http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92444 jonst Tue, 23 Aug 2005 11:30:52 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92444 Wolfgang, The rationale DID change for our forces being in Vietnam. It went from supposedly being in-country to stop an alleged world-wide communist plot (domino theory) to the good old stand-bys of every failed war: 1. our opponents/adversaries will think us weak if we are forced to admit defeat 2. And anyway, look at the noble sacrifice of the soldiers who have died already. The only way to justify their deaths (read, others decisions) is to go on fighting. And this is where we are now with regards to Iraq. The next step in this familiar farce often is the “decent interval” plan. Just let us get out the door and hope the house holds up till we back the car out of the drive-way and are a mile away from it. If it falls then it has not occurred on our watch. Hence, we are not weak. A second step to the plan…sometimes viable, and sometimes not so viable, is to find a Franco/Pinochet/Shah type to leave in power. Jonst Wolfgang,

The rationale DID change for our forces being in Vietnam. It went from supposedly being in-country to stop an alleged world-wide communist plot (domino theory) to the good old stand-bys of every failed war: 1. our opponents/adversaries will think us weak if we are forced to admit defeat 2. And anyway, look at the noble sacrifice of the soldiers who have died already. The only way to justify their deaths (read, others decisions) is to go on fighting.

And this is where we are now with regards to Iraq. The next step in this familiar farce often is the “decent interval” plan. Just let us get out the door and hope the house holds up till we back the car out of the drive-way and are a mile away from it. If it falls then it has not occurred on our watch. Hence, we are not weak. A second step to the plan…sometimes viable, and sometimes not so viable, is to find a Franco/Pinochet/Shah type to leave in power.

Jonst

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92440 abb1 Tue, 23 Aug 2005 07:01:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92440 Comparing Mr. Hagel with Senator Fulbright? Yi-eah, right. Comparing Mr. Hagel with Senator Fulbright? Yi-eah, right.

]]> By: Zumbercanin http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92439 Zumbercanin Tue, 23 Aug 2005 06:26:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92439 It's always fun to read about the disaster that Kosovo is today, without reference to the nature of the disaster that awaited Kosovo in 1999. Today's not perfect, but without intervention the picture would be exponentially worse. And, you know what? Sometimes history does bite you in the ass. Ask Serbs (Bosnia, Kosovo) today, Americans (Iraq) tomorrow. It’s always fun to read about the disaster that Kosovo is today, without reference to the nature of the disaster that awaited Kosovo in 1999. Today’s not perfect, but without intervention the picture would be exponentially worse.

And, you know what? Sometimes history does bite you in the ass. Ask Serbs (Bosnia, Kosovo) today, Americans (Iraq) tomorrow.

]]> By: Sven http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92437 Sven Tue, 23 Aug 2005 04:56:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92437 <i>The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end</i> Forgive me if my sarcasm detector is on the fritz. <blockquote><a href="http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pentagon3/doc253.htm" rel="nofollow">ANNEX-PLAN OF ACTION FOR SOUTH VIETNAM</a> 1. US aims: • 70% -- To avoid a humiliating US defeat (to our reputation as a guarantor). • 20%-- To keep SVN (and then adjacent) territory from Chinese hands. • 10%-- To permit the people of SVN to enjoy a better, freer way of life. • ALSO-- To emerge from crisis without unacceptable taint from methods used. • NOT-- To "help a friend," although it would be hard to stay in if asked out.</blockquote> The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end

Forgive me if my sarcasm detector is on the fritz.

ANNEX-PLAN OF ACTION FOR SOUTH VIETNAM

1. US aims:
• 70%—To avoid a humiliating US defeat (to our reputation as a guarantor).
• 20%—To keep SVN (and then adjacent) territory from Chinese hands.
• 10%—To permit the people of SVN to enjoy a better, freer way of life.
• ALSO—To emerge from crisis without unacceptable taint from methods used.
• NOT—To “help a friend,” although it would be hard to stay in if asked out.

]]> By: Wolfgang http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92435 Wolfgang Tue, 23 Aug 2005 01:32:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92435 I would just like to mention that comparisons between the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq are somewhat flawed. The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end, while the rationale for the Iraq war changed several times. I would just like to mention that comparisons between the Vietnam war and the war in Iraq are somewhat flawed.
The reason for the Vietnam war was always clear and maintained until the bitter end, while the rationale for the Iraq war changed several times.

]]> By: David T. Beito http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92337 David T. Beito Tue, 23 Aug 2005 00:15:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92337 Contained at what cost? An ethnic cleansing has been underway since the end of the war and more than 600 Serb churches have been destroyed. Also, of course, if NATO troops were withdrawn both Bosnia (which is even more artificial than Iraq) and Kosovo (via renewed Albanian and Serb clashes) would degenerate into chaos. Contained at what cost? An ethnic cleansing has been underway since the end of the war and more than 600 Serb churches have been destroyed. Also, of course, if NATO troops were withdrawn both Bosnia (which is even more artificial than Iraq) and Kosovo (via renewed Albanian and Serb clashes) would degenerate into chaos.

]]> By: Henry http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92315 Henry Mon, 22 Aug 2005 23:01:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92315 David - fair enough - have modified the post to say "prominent" Republican legislators. I would disagree with the claim though that the Kosovo action resulted in a "quagmire" - the end-result, while not pretty, has contained what could very easily have been a maelstrom of instability in S-E Europe (viz. worries over FYROM and Albania etc). David – fair enough – have modified the post to say “prominent” Republican legislators. I would disagree with the claim though that the Kosovo action resulted in a “quagmire” – the end-result, while not pretty, has contained what could very easily have been a maelstrom of instability in S-E Europe (viz. worries over FYROM and Albania etc).

]]> By: David T. Beito http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/22/money-mouth/comment-page-1/#comment-92313 David T. Beito Mon, 22 Aug 2005 22:17:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3698#comment-92313 This isn't quite right. Ron Paul (Republican of Texas) in the U.S. House has opposed the Iraq war from the beginning and recently co-sponsored a pro-withdrawal resolution along with Walter "French Fry" Jones (Republican of North Carolina). Unlike his colleagues on both sides of the aisle, Paul has been a consistent (almost lone) opponent of quagmires. He strongly opposed Clinton's Kosovo war, for example, as well as the various Haiti fiascos. This isn’t quite right. Ron Paul (Republican of Texas) in the U.S. House has opposed the Iraq war from the beginning and recently co-sponsored a pro-withdrawal resolution along with Walter “French Fry” Jones (Republican of North Carolina).

Unlike his colleagues on both sides of the aisle, Paul has been a consistent (almost lone) opponent of quagmires. He strongly opposed Clinton’s Kosovo war, for example, as well as the various Haiti fiascos.

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