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	<title>Comments on: Secret Shock Troops of the Gay Agenda</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Troutsky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93179</link>
		<dc:creator>Troutsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 05:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93179</guid>
		<description>I often find those on the right use &quot;worried about the danger&quot; as a pretext (often sub-consciously) for &quot;worried about the moral implications&quot;. As for attraction of the &quot;gay lifestyle&quot; ,what could possibly be more attractive than being feared and reviled, beat up ,cursed and abhored? And thats just by your parents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I often find those on the right use &#8220;worried about the danger&#8221; as a pretext (often sub-consciously) for &#8220;worried about the moral implications&#8221;. As for attraction of the &#8220;gay lifestyle&#8221; ,what could possibly be more attractive than being feared and reviled, beat up ,cursed and abhored? And thats just by your parents.</p>
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		<title>By: Tulkinghon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93177</link>
		<dc:creator>Tulkinghon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Aug 2005 02:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93177</guid>
		<description>The meme of homosexuals &#039;converting&#039; straights and bisexuals always struck me as an obvious example of projection on the part of anti-gay Christian activists.  After all, these activists are are proudly trying to convert gays the other way.  Like many extremists, they indulge in logical fallacy (based in moral vanity) that their opponents are no more than inverse copies of themselves.

Of course, there is a whole genre in gay pornography about seducing heretofore straight men and women, but it has been a long time since pornography has been considered agenda-setting.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The meme of homosexuals &#8216;converting&#8217; straights and bisexuals always struck me as an obvious example of projection on the part of anti-gay Christian activists.  After all, these activists are are proudly trying to convert gays the other way.  Like many extremists, they indulge in logical fallacy (based in moral vanity) that their opponents are no more than inverse copies of themselves.</p>

	<p>Of course, there is a whole genre in gay pornography about seducing heretofore straight men and women, but it has been a long time since pornography has been considered agenda-setting.</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93056</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 19:04:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93056</guid>
		<description>This is off-topic but I need to chill a bit from the paper I&#039;m working on.

I have been playing the PC fantasy game Morrowind for an hour or so each evening for the last few weeks.  There are many other characters in the game for your character to interact with.  Frequently you need something from them, either information or an item, or to barter.  

The stronger your personality and greater your speaking skills, the more likely you are to be successful or to get a good deal.  Anyways, one of the ways you can try to improve your chances of success is via admiring the other character (as well as intimidation or the simple bribe).  I&#039;ve found that both male and female characters react the same way to admiration, with comments like &quot;Why thank you.  No one&#039;s told me that for the longest time&quot; if the admiration is successful, or &quot;No thanks.  I have plans tonight&quot; if it isn&#039;t.  This suggests that your character is bisexual.  

It seems that the gay agenda is everywhere . . . of course, considering that the wackier American churches have been crusading against fantasy for many years as anti-Christian, it only makes sense that the gay would be appearing there as well.  After all, us hellbound anti-Jebusians need to work together in order to bring about the rise of the Beast.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This is off-topic but I need to chill a bit from the paper I&#8217;m working on.</p>

	<p>I have been playing the PC fantasy game Morrowind for an hour or so each evening for the last few weeks.  There are many other characters in the game for your character to interact with.  Frequently you need something from them, either information or an item, or to barter.</p>

	<p>The stronger your personality and greater your speaking skills, the more likely you are to be successful or to get a good deal.  Anyways, one of the ways you can try to improve your chances of success is via admiring the other character (as well as intimidation or the simple bribe).  I&#8217;ve found that both male and female characters react the same way to admiration, with comments like &#8220;Why thank you.  No one&#8217;s told me that for the longest time&#8221; if the admiration is successful, or &#8220;No thanks.  I have plans tonight&#8221; if it isn&#8217;t.  This suggests that your character is bisexual.</p>

	<p>It seems that the gay agenda is everywhere . . . of course, considering that the wackier American churches have been crusading against fantasy for many years as anti-Christian, it only makes sense that the gay would be appearing there as well.  After all, us hellbound anti-Jebusians need to work together in order to bring about the rise of the Beast.</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Bridgman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93050</link>
		<dc:creator>Glenn Bridgman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 15:12:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93050</guid>
		<description>Soru, part of me agrees with you, but it doesn&#039;t work like that, never has, and probably never will.  So when the context does exist, it takes a foolish epistemalogical idealism to ignore it.

As for the &quot;supporting the killing,&quot; I suppose if you want to dig deep enough, probably.  But we act as if it doesn&#039;t, because that would silence dissent and much worse things happen then.  By the same token, plenty of pro-war folks are probably happy that 9/11 happened, but they don&#039;t get called on it, because polite society doesn&#039;t work that way.  It&#039;s all about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, and because the &quot;Convert&quot; context is so well established, I don&#039;t see why it should be ignored.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Soru, part of me agrees with you, but it doesn&#8217;t work like that, never has, and probably never will.  So when the context does exist, it takes a foolish epistemalogical idealism to ignore it.</p>

	<p>As for the &#8220;supporting the killing,&#8221; I suppose if you want to dig deep enough, probably.  But we act as if it doesn&#8217;t, because that would silence dissent and much worse things happen then.  By the same token, plenty of pro-war folks are probably happy that 9/11 happened, but they don&#8217;t get called on it, because polite society doesn&#8217;t work that way.  It&#8217;s all about how far down the rabbit hole you want to go, and because the &#8220;Convert&#8221; context is so well established, I don&#8217;t see why it should be ignored.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93045</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:14:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93045</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;As with most things, it only takes a few to tarnish the reputation of the whole.&lt;/i&gt;

Very true, James. I have to remind myself periodically that not all law professors are intellectually dishonest hacks, Volokh and Glenn Reynolds notwithstanding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>As with most things, it only takes a few to tarnish the reputation of the whole.</i></p>

	<p>Very true, James. I have to remind myself periodically that not all law professors are intellectually dishonest hacks, Volokh and Glenn Reynolds notwithstanding.</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-93044</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 12:43:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-93044</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;
He, and many like him, seem unaware that his comments exist as part of a political ecosystem that contextualize each statement beyond face value.
&lt;/i&gt;

That&#039;s probably about true.

But applying that standard, doesn&#039;t the blandest of anti-bush statements actually qualify as &#039;supporting those killing american troops&#039;?

Because, assuming the goal of at least some of the insurgents is to make the occupation politically unsustainable, then any telling criticism of Bush is, objectively speaking, advancing their aims. That&#039;s the political ecosystem that provides context to any such statement.

Equally, of course, inneffective criticism, the type that makes some people dismiss war critics as &#039;flakes&#039;, counts as supporting the bombing of Fallujah

The point being that that way of thinking is unsupportable, soon leads to nonsense. So maybe it would be better to discuss statements on the basis of whether or not they are true, rather than which agenda they support.

soru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i><br />
He, and many like him, seem unaware that his comments exist as part of a political ecosystem that contextualize each statement beyond face value.<br />
</i></p>

	<p>That&#8217;s probably about true.</p>

	<p>But applying that standard, doesn&#8217;t the blandest of anti-bush statements actually qualify as &#8216;supporting those killing american troops&#8217;?</p>

	<p>Because, assuming the goal of at least some of the insurgents is to make the occupation politically unsustainable, then any telling criticism of Bush is, objectively speaking, advancing their aims. That&#8217;s the political ecosystem that provides context to any such statement.</p>

	<p>Equally, of course, inneffective criticism, the type that makes some people dismiss war critics as &#8216;flakes&#8217;, counts as supporting the bombing of Fallujah</p>

	<p>The point being that that way of thinking is unsupportable, soon leads to nonsense. So maybe it would be better to discuss statements on the basis of whether or not they are true, rather than which agenda they support.</p>

	<p>soru</p>
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		<title>By: Lorna</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-92962</link>
		<dc:creator>Lorna</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 10:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92962</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Picking up a stranger involves this step without first knowing the sexual orientation of the other party. It is pretty easy to see how an aggressive suitor could be seen as attempting to convert or cajole the other party. Especially if that suitor ignores the “no” type answers.&lt;/i&gt;

So where&#039;s Eugene Volokh&#039;s post on straight men trying to convert lesbians to a dangerous lifestyle, I wonder? Because that&#039;s the combination I&#039;ve most noticed this behaviour in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Picking up a stranger involves this step without first knowing the sexual orientation of the other party. It is pretty easy to see how an aggressive suitor could be seen as attempting to convert or cajole the other party. Especially if that suitor ignores the &#8220;no&#8221; type answers.</i></p>

	<p>So where&#8217;s Eugene Volokh&#8217;s post on straight men trying to convert lesbians to a dangerous lifestyle, I wonder? Because that&#8217;s the combination I&#8217;ve most noticed this behaviour in.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-92781</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 02:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92781</guid>
		<description>Another thing is that damn few of my gay or lesbian friends want bad sex, and sex with someone who isn&#039;t really interested in sex with your type of person generally is bad. In all my years so far, I&#039;ve run into one (1) gay man who took a perverse pleasure in manipulating generally straight men into having sex with hima nd he was ostracized from any gay group that came in contact with him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Another thing is that damn few of my gay or lesbian friends want bad sex, and sex with someone who isn&#8217;t really interested in sex with your type of person generally is bad. In all my years so far, I&#8217;ve run into one (1) gay man who took a perverse pleasure in manipulating generally straight men into having sex with hima nd he was ostracized from any gay group that came in contact with him.</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-92780</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:07:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92780</guid>
		<description>I would have to say that all the gay people I know, both couples and singles, just want to be left alone.

They aren&#039;t out to convert &#039;straights&#039; to their &#039;life style&#039;. They simply don&#039;t want to be persecuted.

Volokh, for all his smarts, is wrong on this one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would have to say that all the gay people I know, both couples and singles, just want to be left alone.</p>

	<p>They aren&#8217;t out to convert &#8216;straights&#8217; to their &#8216;life style&#8217;. They simply don&#8217;t want to be persecuted.</p>

	<p>Volokh, for all his smarts, is wrong on this one.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-2/#comment-92779</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Aug 2005 01:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92779</guid>
		<description>Bruce Baugh - As with most things, it only takes a few to tarnish the reputation of the whole.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bruce Baugh &#8211; As with most things, it only takes a few to tarnish the reputation of the whole.</p>
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		<title>By: Urinated State of America</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-92778</link>
		<dc:creator>Urinated State of America</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 23:24:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92778</guid>
		<description>&quot;By having sex with them 40 weeks or so earlier, and then putting them through this awful experience, they surely drive men away from a healthy heterosexuality.&quot;

Not heterosexuality, but certainly seeing the loved one get a C-section after 20 hours of drug-free labor killed any womb envy I had. 

If I&#039;m reincarnated as a woman and get pregnant, fuck the &quot;living the beautiful experience of childbirth&quot; - it&#039;s epidural all the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;By having sex with them 40 weeks or so earlier, and then putting them through this awful experience, they surely drive men away from a healthy heterosexuality.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not heterosexuality, but certainly seeing the loved one get a C-section after 20 hours of drug-free labor killed any womb envy I had.</p>

	<p>If I&#8217;m reincarnated as a woman and get pregnant, fuck the &#8220;living the beautiful experience of childbirth&#8221; &#8211; it&#8217;s epidural all the way.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-92774</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92774</guid>
		<description>But James, the overwhelming majority of gay and lesbian people are more careful about the context of pickups precisely because a wrong guess can end in harassment and violence. They are much less likely to assume compatibility in the first place, and much more likely to check for clues - the proverbial &quot;gaydar&quot; - before making any real move. Some of that would be true even in the most protective of environments simply by virtue of being a minority orientation, along with being a John Waters fan or whatever, but much is a response to the real risks posed by private and public homophobia.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But James, the overwhelming majority of gay and lesbian people are more careful about the context of pickups precisely because a wrong guess can end in harassment and violence. They are much less likely to assume compatibility in the first place, and much more likely to check for clues &#8211; the proverbial &#8220;gaydar&#8221; &#8211; before making any real move. Some of that would be true even in the most protective of environments simply by virtue of being a minority orientation, along with being a John Waters fan or whatever, but much is a response to the real risks posed by private and public homophobia.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-92773</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 21:24:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92773</guid>
		<description>jasmindad: I am only clarifying an inaccuracy concerning information directly related to the topic.  Volokh’s position is not mine.  

I will say this.  In the process of courting, there is logical step in which one attempts convince the other party that you represent someone they want to be physically involved with.  Picking up a stranger involves this step without first knowing the sexual orientation of the other party.  It is pretty easy to see how an aggressive suitor could be seen as attempting to convert or cajole the other party.  Especially if that suitor ignores the “no” type answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>jasmindad: I am only clarifying an inaccuracy concerning information directly related to the topic.  Volokh&#8217;s position is not mine.</p>

	<p>I will say this.  In the process of courting, there is logical step in which one attempts convince the other party that you represent someone they want to be physically involved with.  Picking up a stranger involves this step without first knowing the sexual orientation of the other party.  It is pretty easy to see how an aggressive suitor could be seen as attempting to convert or cajole the other party.  Especially if that suitor ignores the &#8220;no&#8221; type answers.</p>
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		<title>By: ben alpers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-92770</link>
		<dc:creator>ben alpers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:54:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92770</guid>
		<description>glenn (in #38 above), 

I&#039;m actually pretty agnostic on whether Volokh is cluefully engaging in homophobic attacks posing as moderate truth seeking, or whether he is, as you suggest, simply clueless about the larger implications of his post. 

The point I was making is that whether or not Volokh knows it, his post is quite designed to reaffirm a myth that plays a crucial role in homophobic discourse.  Given all that Volokh says explicitly, however, the only thing that he might in fact be clueless about is the role that the myth about which he writes plays.  And I guess I have a hard time entirely believing he&#039;s that clueless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>glenn (in #38 above),</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m actually pretty agnostic on whether Volokh is cluefully engaging in homophobic attacks posing as moderate truth seeking, or whether he is, as you suggest, simply clueless about the larger implications of his post.</p>

	<p>The point I was making is that whether or not Volokh knows it, his post is quite designed to reaffirm a myth that plays a crucial role in homophobic discourse.  Given all that Volokh says explicitly, however, the only thing that he might in fact be clueless about is the role that the myth about which he writes plays.  And I guess I have a hard time entirely believing he&#8217;s that clueless.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Cornell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/comment-page-1/#comment-92768</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Cornell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Aug 2005 19:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/24/secret-shock-troops-of-the-gay-agenda/#comment-92768</guid>
		<description>Sorry to bring this up out of left field, but Maria has seen fit to shut down comments on the earlier post about the NYT column, and it seemed wrong to let that pass without comment. Maria&#039;s justification for shutting the discussion down was that the &quot;sheer narcissism of some comments&quot; and the &quot;turn toward personal attacks on a fellow blogger.&quot; I&#039;ll leave it to you to decide if there&#039;s anything especially narcissistic about the comments (and it does seem a peculiar criticism given the fact that Belle&#039;s original post was in large part about her own experience of giving birth), but the latter criticism seems to be especially feeble, and unworthy of CT. Belle&#039;s original post consisted in large part of righteous indignation and name-calling: &quot;Boo-fucking hoo . . . Most Annoying Guy Ever . . . oddly-easily-quenched future sexual desires&quot; and, of course, &quot;total asshole.&quot; She entered the thread late to engage with the posters, and ended her post with the ever-so-impersonal &quot;kiss my grits.&quot; But apparently Maria has decided that Belle&#039;s sensibilities are just too fragile to handle . . . well, frankly, I don&#039;t know what, since if you look at the thread there are no personal attacks on her, just questions and arguments. 

I realize that, like Reagan, you pay for the microphone. But it&#039;s still bullshit to shut the discussion down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry to bring this up out of left field, but Maria has seen fit to shut down comments on the earlier post about the <span class="caps">NYT</span> column, and it seemed wrong to let that pass without comment. Maria&#8217;s justification for shutting the discussion down was that the &#8220;sheer narcissism of some comments&#8221; and the &#8220;turn toward personal attacks on a fellow blogger.&#8221; I&#8217;ll leave it to you to decide if there&#8217;s anything especially narcissistic about the comments (and it does seem a peculiar criticism given the fact that Belle&#8217;s original post was in large part about her own experience of giving birth), but the latter criticism seems to be especially feeble, and unworthy of CT. Belle&#8217;s original post consisted in large part of righteous indignation and name-calling: &#8220;Boo-fucking hoo . . . Most Annoying Guy Ever . . . oddly-easily-quenched future sexual desires&#8221; and, of course, &#8220;total asshole.&#8221; She entered the thread late to engage with the posters, and ended her post with the ever-so-impersonal &#8220;kiss my grits.&#8221; But apparently Maria has decided that Belle&#8217;s sensibilities are just too fragile to handle . . . well, frankly, I don&#8217;t know what, since if you look at the thread there are no personal attacks on her, just questions and arguments.</p>

	<p>I realize that, like Reagan, you pay for the microphone. But it&#8217;s still bullshit to shut the discussion down.</p>
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