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	<title>Comments on: Ask Jane</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93995</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93995</guid>
		<description>In an interesting twist in my own life, I was the adopted grandchild--&lt;a href=&quot;http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/07/grandma_kimi.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; adopted by a Japanese grandmother &lt;/a&gt; and grandfather who couldn&#039;t have children.  They didn&#039;t pay for college (though they did take me on a trip to see the World Expo in Canada).  Does the fact that they gave time and love instead of money change things.  It kind of depends on what they want out if it I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In an interesting twist in my own life, I was the adopted grandchild&#8212;<a href="http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2005/07/grandma_kimi.html" rel="nofollow"> adopted by a Japanese grandmother </a> and grandfather who couldn&#8217;t have children.  They didn&#8217;t pay for college (though they did take me on a trip to see the World Expo in Canada).  Does the fact that they gave time and love instead of money change things.  It kind of depends on what they want out if it I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: Ophelia Benson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93895</link>
		<dc:creator>Ophelia Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93895</guid>
		<description>I just happen to have re-read MP in the last week or two, so the characterization of the Price marriage sticks in my mind.

I no doubt am unfair to Sir Thomas...but Austen does plant a lot of little ticking bombs. He is quite dreadful in many ways.

I have to disagree about Charlotte Lucas and Mr Collins though! That is a nightmare marriage, and a real degradation for Charlotte. A clever person married to an idiot was one of Austen&#039;s worst nightmares. She makes comedy out of them, but they&#039;re also real nightmare.

(Frank Churchill is another adoptee.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I just happen to have re-read MP in the last week or two, so the characterization of the Price marriage sticks in my mind.</p>

	<p>I no doubt am unfair to Sir Thomas&#8230;but Austen does plant a lot of little ticking bombs. He is quite dreadful in many ways.</p>

	<p>I have to disagree about Charlotte Lucas and Mr Collins though! That is a nightmare marriage, and a real degradation for Charlotte. A clever person married to an idiot was one of Austen&#8217;s worst nightmares. She makes comedy out of them, but they&#8217;re also real nightmare.</p>

	<p>(Frank Churchill is another adoptee.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93893</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 23:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93893</guid>
		<description>Do friendships and marriages between different social classes actually, in the real world, threaten the social order?  I am trying to think through all the matches I know of, and the social order seems either tougher, or more flexible, than that.  

Changes in social order seem to be driven by far bigger changes, in say economic realities or political ideas.  E.g. the change in the relative status of dairy and sheep farmers in agricultural NZ is being driven by a relative difference in returns to the different forms of farming over the last few decades, not by marriages and friendships.  Social orders are quite capable of carving off exceptions for marriages and friendships, e.g. my father whose marriage to the daughter of a Taranki dairy farmer was accepted despite his being a soccer player, and without impacting Grandad&#039;s general belief that soccer playing is proof of all sorts of moral depravity and physical weaknesses.

As for the desire for a granddaughter - I think the letter-writer could achieve her aims much more cheaply.  When I was very little I spent large chunks of time at the house of our next-door neighbour who also lacked grandchildren of her own - she would take the time to peel apples for me while my mum maintained that the skin was good for me.  Sadly she died before we could find out if that early friendship would last after I could wield a paring knife myself.  Leaving aside the nutritional issue, would such a way of developing a relationship cause any ethical problems?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do friendships and marriages between different social classes actually, in the real world, threaten the social order?  I am trying to think through all the matches I know of, and the social order seems either tougher, or more flexible, than that.</p>

	<p>Changes in social order seem to be driven by far bigger changes, in say economic realities or political ideas.  E.g. the change in the relative status of dairy and sheep farmers in agricultural NZ is being driven by a relative difference in returns to the different forms of farming over the last few decades, not by marriages and friendships.  Social orders are quite capable of carving off exceptions for marriages and friendships, e.g. my father whose marriage to the daughter of a Taranki dairy farmer was accepted despite his being a soccer player, and without impacting Grandad&#8217;s general belief that soccer playing is proof of all sorts of moral depravity and physical weaknesses.</p>

	<p>As for the desire for a granddaughter &#8211; I think the letter-writer could achieve her aims much more cheaply.  When I was very little I spent large chunks of time at the house of our next-door neighbour who also lacked grandchildren of her own &#8211; she would take the time to peel apples for me while my mum maintained that the skin was good for me.  Sadly she died before we could find out if that early friendship would last after I could wield a paring knife myself.  Leaving aside the nutritional issue, would such a way of developing a relationship cause any ethical problems?</p>
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		<title>By: Maria</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93756</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:47:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93756</guid>
		<description>Hmm.  I don&#039;t have my copy of MP to hand, and my belief that the Price marriage was a love-match gone sour probably comes also from my memory of a secondary source - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679777539/qid=1125260645/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5242650-3953417?v=glance&amp;s=books&amp;n=507846&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Imagining Characters&lt;/a&gt; - albeit a quite reliable one.  

JA allows for reasonably successful marriages of secondary characters where material comfort outweighs physical revulsion, e.g. the ever-practical Charlotte Lucas&#039; marriage to Mr. Collins in P&amp;P.  But on the whole she requires affection/respect and sufficient wealth for her heroines. 

I think Ophelia&#039;s being a little harsh on Sir Thomas B., though.  Firstly, JA makes it clear that Fanny seriously considers Henry Crawford as a potential husband, and even hints that Fanny&#039;s influence might have redeemed the man.  Though his failure to persevere just once more in his courtship of Fanny is telling. And as well as being unfairly angry and bullying, Sir Thomas also seems genuinely perplexed and concerned that Fanny would refuse such an attractive suitor.  But anyway, these re-readings are part of what makes JA&#039;s work so enjoyable.

By the by, I remembered this morning another JA character who&#039;s adopted and brought up by a better-placed relative - Emma Watson in JA&#039;s unfinished work The Watsons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm.  I don&#8217;t have my copy of MP to hand, and my belief that the Price marriage was a love-match gone sour probably comes also from my memory of a secondary source &#8211; <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679777539/qid=1125260645/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/103-5242650-3953417?v=glance&#038;s=books&#038;n=507846" rel="nofollow">Imagining Characters</a> &#8211; albeit a quite reliable one.</p>

	<p>JA allows for reasonably successful marriages of secondary characters where material comfort outweighs physical revulsion, e.g. the ever-practical Charlotte Lucas&#8217; marriage to Mr. Collins in P&#038;P.  But on the whole she requires affection/respect and sufficient wealth for her heroines.</p>

	<p>I think Ophelia&#8217;s being a little harsh on Sir Thomas B., though.  Firstly, JA makes it clear that Fanny seriously considers Henry Crawford as a potential husband, and even hints that Fanny&#8217;s influence might have redeemed the man.  Though his failure to persevere just once more in his courtship of Fanny is telling. And as well as being unfairly angry and bullying, Sir Thomas also seems genuinely perplexed and concerned that Fanny would refuse such an attractive suitor.  But anyway, these re-readings are part of what makes JA&#8217;s work so enjoyable.</p>

	<p>By the by, I remembered this morning another JA character who&#8217;s adopted and brought up by a better-placed relative &#8211; Emma Watson in JA&#8217;s unfinished work The Watsons.</p>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93722</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 20:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93722</guid>
		<description>Saying &quot;Ask Amy&quot; is brilliant means your brilliancy standard is seriously defective.  I especially like how she uses &quot;unethical&quot; as a synonym for &quot;icky&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Saying &#8220;Ask Amy&#8221; is brilliant means your brilliancy standard is seriously defective.  I especially like how she uses &#8220;unethical&#8221; as a synonym for &#8220;icky&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ophelia Benson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93717</link>
		<dc:creator>Ophelia Benson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 19:31:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93717</guid>
		<description>Just to reinforce Maria&#039;s point that love is not Austen&#039;s chief theme - a small quibble -

&quot;Mansfield Park is the story of the neglected children of a couple who married for love but floundered in poverty.&quot;

Actually Austen never says the couple married for love - she says Frances Ward married to disoblige her family. Love is entirely omitted from the picture. In fact it&#039;s omitted from the account of the marriages of all three Ward sisters. The whole account sounds more like a set of business contracts. Classic Austen irony.

Mind you, in another way her theme is love. A large part of the burden of MP is how misguided and disastrous it is to marry for money and position in the entire absence of love or even respect - as Maria does, and as Sir Thomas so very mistakenly and cruelly tries to compel Fanny to do. Sir Thomas ends up with a very bad conscience about allowing Maria to marry Mr Rushworth when he strongly suspected that she couldn&#039;t bear him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to reinforce Maria&#8217;s point that love is not Austen&#8217;s chief theme &#8211; a small quibble &#8211;<br />
&#8220;Mansfield Park is the story of the neglected children of a couple who married for love but floundered in poverty.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Actually Austen never says the couple married for love &#8211; she says Frances Ward married to disoblige her family. Love is entirely omitted from the picture. In fact it&#8217;s omitted from the account of the marriages of all three Ward sisters. The whole account sounds more like a set of business contracts. Classic Austen irony.</p>

	<p>Mind you, in another way her theme is love. A large part of the burden of MP is how misguided and disastrous it is to marry for money and position in the entire absence of love or even respect &#8211; as Maria does, and as Sir Thomas so very mistakenly and cruelly tries to compel Fanny to do. Sir Thomas ends up with a very bad conscience about allowing Maria to marry Mr Rushworth when he strongly suspected that she couldn&#8217;t bear him.</p>
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		<title>By: dp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93680</link>
		<dc:creator>dp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 08:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93680</guid>
		<description>This may be way out of line, but the wannabe fairy godmother comes across as more than a little voyeuristic, indicative of someone who is looking for a life by proxy, who projects that life onto a third party, and not least, seems to have forgotten the dictum about not mixing with the servants.

I also note that Amy never says why it it unethical, perhaps because she wants to avoid alienating her readership.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This may be way out of line, but the wannabe fairy godmother comes across as more than a little voyeuristic, indicative of someone who is looking for a life by proxy, who projects that life onto a third party, and not least, seems to have forgotten the dictum about not mixing with the servants.</p>

	<p>I also note that Amy never says why it it unethical, perhaps because she wants to avoid alienating her readership.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93562</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 01:07:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93562</guid>
		<description>Well, Jane Austen understood what it meant to have a wealthy couple adopt a child and give them a boost in the world--it happened to one of her brothers.  And, like in EMMA, the brother took the name of the new family, just as we do in legal adoptions, in order to inherit.

I also think that within the boundaries of gentility and comfortable circumstances Jane Austen was writing about women having not just freedom of choice, but freedom to make mistakes, learn by them, and choose again.  (In her world that meant choosing a mate, since there were no opportunities outside of service for women.) Nowadays the ways she was gently but firmly subversive are invisible because we have gained all the points she raised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, Jane Austen understood what it meant to have a wealthy couple adopt a child and give them a boost in the world&#8212;it happened to one of her brothers.  And, like in <span class="caps">EMMA</span>, the brother took the name of the new family, just as we do in legal adoptions, in order to inherit.</p>

	<p>I also think that within the boundaries of gentility and comfortable circumstances Jane Austen was writing about women having not just freedom of choice, but freedom to make mistakes, learn by them, and choose again.  (In her world that meant choosing a mate, since there were no opportunities outside of service for women.) Nowadays the ways she was gently but firmly subversive are invisible because we have gained all the points she raised.</p>
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		<title>By: Kaleberg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93528</link>
		<dc:creator>Kaleberg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93528</guid>
		<description>My impression is that Jane Austen always wrote about MONEY. She may have mentioned a title or two, but she usually characterized people as 10,000 a year, or hoping for a 150 pound a year living as a parson. In fact, modern writers tend to be much less up front about money. When was the last time a hero or heroine was characterized in a popular as holding 11.5 million shares of class A voting stock trading at $12 a share?

Of course, Jane Austen was writing about a vanishing England. The industrial revolution was on, and the old fashioned land capitalists were merging with the new breed of factory capitalists. The courts were throwing out all those entailed wills that Ms. Austen was so fond of. 

Jane Austen was the Sholom Aleikem of a certain part of pre-industrial England.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My impression is that Jane Austen always wrote about <span class="caps">MONEY</span>. She may have mentioned a title or two, but she usually characterized people as 10,000 a year, or hoping for a 150 pound a year living as a parson. In fact, modern writers tend to be much less up front about money. When was the last time a hero or heroine was characterized in a popular as holding 11.5 million shares of class A voting stock trading at $12 a share?</p>

	<p>Of course, Jane Austen was writing about a vanishing England. The industrial revolution was on, and the old fashioned land capitalists were merging with the new breed of factory capitalists. The courts were throwing out all those entailed wills that Ms. Austen was so fond of.</p>

	<p>Jane Austen was the Sholom Aleikem of a certain part of pre-industrial England.</p>
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		<title>By: Maria</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93526</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93526</guid>
		<description>Fixed.  Thanks, Vance</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fixed.  Thanks, Vance</p>
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		<title>By: Maria</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93524</link>
		<dc:creator>Maria</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Aug 2005 00:17:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93524</guid>
		<description>Fixed.  Thanks, Vance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fixed.  Thanks, Vance.</p>
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		<title>By: Aidan Kehoe</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93523</link>
		<dc:creator>Aidan Kehoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:53:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93523</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d love to have a fly-on-the-wall perspective from some genteel evening in the early 1800s where someone brings up Miss Austen and points out that class being [ultimately] a matter of money, no more and no less, is a cornerstone of all her work. I can imagine lots of indignant disagreement from the nobility. 

On a parallel issue, I only realised on reading &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050829fa_fact&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Malcolm Gladwell&#039;s recent New Yorker article&lt;/a&gt; what a significant class marker good teeth is for those in the US. It does make the emphasis on orthodontics among their middle classes much easier to understand.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;d love to have a fly-on-the-wall perspective from some genteel evening in the early 1800s where someone brings up Miss Austen and points out that class being [ultimately] a matter of money, no more and no less, is a cornerstone of all her work. I can imagine lots of indignant disagreement from the nobility.</p>

	<p>On a parallel issue, I only realised on reading <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/050829fa_fact" rel="nofollow">Malcolm Gladwell&#8217;s recent New Yorker article</a> what a significant class marker good teeth is for those in the US. It does make the emphasis on orthodontics among their middle classes much easier to understand.</p>
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		<title>By: Vance Maverick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/08/27/ask-jane/comment-page-1/#comment-93522</link>
		<dc:creator>Vance Maverick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 27 Aug 2005 23:20:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3711#comment-93522</guid>
		<description>You need to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/26/AR2005082601440.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fix that link&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You need to <a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/26/AR2005082601440.html" rel="nofollow">fix that link</a>.</p>
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