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	<title>Comments on: Reuters Cameraman Held in Iraq</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:04:17 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-95047</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Sep 2005 15:21:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-95047</guid>
		<description>The Iraqi&#039;s decided against shutting down Abu Ghraib.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Iraqi&#8217;s decided against shutting down Abu Ghraib.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Green</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94844</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Green</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 23:11:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94844</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; to be held without charge in Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison&lt;/i&gt;

After the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, didn&#039;t the Americans say it would be closed down? Whatever happened to that idea?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> to be held without charge in Baghdad&#8217;s Abu Ghraib prison</i></p>

	<p>After the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, didn&#8217;t the Americans say it would be closed down? Whatever happened to that idea?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94819</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 21:00:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94819</guid>
		<description>But their responses &lt;i&gt;are&lt;/i&gt; appropriate. The most obvious of the &#039;rules of engagement&#039; obviously is this: when you feel threatened, shoot first. This is most natural, anything else would be unreasonable. That&#039;s what fighting a war is all about, that&#039;s why war is supposed to be the last resort.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But their responses <i>are</i> appropriate. The most obvious of the &#8216;rules of engagement&#8217; obviously is this: when you feel threatened, shoot first. This is most natural, anything else would be unreasonable. That&#8217;s what fighting a war is all about, that&#8217;s why war is supposed to be the last resort.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94818</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:51:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94818</guid>
		<description>&quot;One of the ways we train our Marines is by going over scenarios with them...&quot;

And what precisely happens after all the scenarios have been gone through?  Do the trainers say, yup that is right, whatever you thought is ok.  Or do they talk about each situation and why the initial responses were or were not appropriate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;One of the ways we train our Marines is by going over scenarios with them&#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>And what precisely happens after all the scenarios have been gone through?  Do the trainers say, yup that is right, whatever you thought is ok.  Or do they talk about each situation and why the initial responses were or were not appropriate?</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94816</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 20:37:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94816</guid>
		<description>Here ya go:
&lt;blockquote&gt;
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military confirmed on Thursday that its soldiers killed a Reuters journalist in Iraq but said their action was &quot;appropriate.&quot;

Describing Sunday&#039;s incident, when television soundman Waleed Khaled was killed by multiple shots, Major General Rick Lynch said: &quot;That car approached at a high rate of speed and then conducted activity that in itself was suspicious. There were individuals hanging outside with what looked to be a weapon.

&quot;It stopped and immediately put itself in reverse. Again suspicious activity. Our soldiers on the scene used established rules of engagement and all the training received ... decided that it was appropriate to engage that particular car.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Reminded me of this (from Juan Cole&#039;s blog):
&lt;blockquote&gt;
One of the ways we train our Marines is by going over scenarios with them. In one, I propose that they are traveling down the highway in a convoy. As they approach an overpass, they see a MAM (military age male) standing on the middle of the overpass with something about the size of a baseball (grenade-sized) in his hands. When he sees the convoy, he freezes. What should you do? Most of the Marines will say, &quot;He&#039;s demonstrated hostile intent, you need to waste him. He could be holding a hand grenade and be intending to drop it into one of the trucks as you pass under.&quot; (This is an actual tactic used by the insurgents).

I change the scenario and say that when he sees you, he drops to the ground on the overpass. Some Marine will invariably answer, to the acclaim of his fellow Marines, &quot;That&#039;s a hostile act. He&#039;s taking cover because he&#039;s about to detonate an IED on you. You need to take him out.&quot; (Also something they&#039;ve actually seen.)

Finally, I change the scenario to say that, when he sees you, he turns around in the direction from which he came and starts running off the overpass (you can see where this is going). The answer is usually that that too is a hostile act or hostile intent because he is clearly trying to get off that overpass before the IED goes off.

Apparently, the only safe action for the MAM to take is to have Scotty beam him up. As far as some Marines are concerned, the presence of an Arab male in proximity to an American convoy may be all you need to find hostile act/hostile intent. This is, of course, highly reminiscent of that quip in Michael Herr&#039;s Dispatches, &quot;The ones who run are VC. The ones who don&#039;t run are well-disciplined VC.&quot;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here ya go:<br />
<blockquote><br />
BAGHDAD (Reuters) &#8211; The U.S. military confirmed on Thursday that its soldiers killed a Reuters journalist in Iraq but said their action was &#8220;appropriate.&#8221;</blockquote></p>

	<p>Describing Sunday&#8217;s incident, when television soundman Waleed Khaled was killed by multiple shots, Major General Rick Lynch said: &#8220;That car approached at a high rate of speed and then conducted activity that in itself was suspicious. There were individuals hanging outside with what looked to be a weapon.</p>

	<p>&#8220;It stopped and immediately put itself in reverse. Again suspicious activity. Our soldiers on the scene used established rules of engagement and all the training received &#8230; decided that it was appropriate to engage that particular car.<br />
</p>

	<p>Reminded me of this (from Juan Cole&#8217;s blog):<br />
<blockquote><br />
One of the ways we train our Marines is by going over scenarios with them. In one, I propose that they are traveling down the highway in a convoy. As they approach an overpass, they see a <span class="caps">MAM </span>(military age male) standing on the middle of the overpass with something about the size of a baseball (grenade-sized) in his hands. When he sees the convoy, he freezes. What should you do? Most of the Marines will say, &#8220;He&#8217;s demonstrated hostile intent, you need to waste him. He could be holding a hand grenade and be intending to drop it into one of the trucks as you pass under.&#8221; (This is an actual tactic used by the insurgents).</blockquote></p>

	<p>I change the scenario and say that when he sees you, he drops to the ground on the overpass. Some Marine will invariably answer, to the acclaim of his fellow Marines, &#8220;That&#8217;s a hostile act. He&#8217;s taking cover because he&#8217;s about to detonate an <span class="caps">IED</span> on you. You need to take him out.&#8221; (Also something they&#8217;ve actually seen.)</p>

	<p>Finally, I change the scenario to say that, when he sees you, he turns around in the direction from which he came and starts running off the overpass (you can see where this is going). The answer is usually that that too is a hostile act or hostile intent because he is clearly trying to get off that overpass before the <span class="caps">IED</span> goes off.</p>

	<p>Apparently, the only safe action for the <span class="caps">MAM</span> to take is to have Scotty beam him up. As far as some Marines are concerned, the presence of an Arab male in proximity to an American convoy may be all you need to find hostile act/hostile intent. This is, of course, highly reminiscent of that quip in Michael Herr&#8217;s Dispatches, &#8220;The ones who run are VC. The ones who don&#8217;t run are well-disciplined VC.&#8221;<br />
</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew  Brown</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94797</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew  Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 19:25:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94797</guid>
		<description>Well, y81, the thing about human rights is that they apply to people simply by virtue of being human, which even photographers are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, y81, the thing about human rights is that they apply to people simply by virtue of being human, which even photographers are.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94782</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:42:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94782</guid>
		<description>But he&#039;s just an Iraqi. They kill dozens of them and send probably hundreds to the concentration camps every day. What&#039;s so special about this one - that he happened to be working for the Reuters? Big deal, let &#039;em get another one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But he&#8217;s just an Iraqi. They kill dozens of them and send probably hundreds to the concentration camps every day. What&#8217;s so special about this one &#8211; that he happened to be working for the Reuters? Big deal, let &#8216;em get another one.</p>
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		<title>By: catfish</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94775</link>
		<dc:creator>catfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 18:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94775</guid>
		<description>y81,

I don&#039;t see the above quotes as &quot;selective&quot; at all, except in the sense that all quoting is selective when it does not reproduce the entire article.  Plus, Jon linked to the original.  I don&#039;t see how Jon could have selected other quotes that would have told a differnt  story, because the military will not tell its side of the story, it will not even allow the detained men to know why they are being detained.  Such is the price of secrecy, I suppose, but you can hardly blaim people for being suspicious.  There is a long history of military occupiers imprisoning people without charges.  Much of the time, these decisions are based on political rather than security reasons.  We must be wary.

Catfish</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>y81,</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t see the above quotes as &#8220;selective&#8221; at all, except in the sense that all quoting is selective when it does not reproduce the entire article.  Plus, Jon linked to the original.  I don&#8217;t see how Jon could have selected other quotes that would have told a differnt  story, because the military will not tell its side of the story, it will not even allow the detained men to know why they are being detained.  Such is the price of secrecy, I suppose, but you can hardly blaim people for being suspicious.  There is a long history of military occupiers imprisoning people without charges.  Much of the time, these decisions are based on political rather than security reasons.  We must be wary.</p>

	<p>Catfish</p>
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		<title>By: McDuff</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94770</link>
		<dc:creator>McDuff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:58:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94770</guid>
		<description>Silly people.  It&#039;s &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&amp;rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&amp;hl=en&amp;q=al-reuters&amp;meta=&amp;btnG=Google+Search&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Al-Reuters&lt;/a&gt;&quot;, and the Americans are only protecting themselves against scurrilous traitors who would offer aid and comfort to the enemy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Silly people.  It&#8217;s &#8220;<a href="http://www.google.co.uk/search?client=firefox-a&#038;rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&#038;hl=en&#038;q=al-reuters&#038;meta=&#038;btnG=Google+Search" rel="nofollow">Al-Reuters</a>&#8220;, and the Americans are only protecting themselves against scurrilous traitors who would offer aid and comfort to the enemy.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94769</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:54:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94769</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The U.S. military has refused Reuters’ requests to disclose why he is being held. He has not been charged.&lt;/i&gt;

He has ceased to exist. He never existed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The U.S. military has refused Reuters&#8217; requests to disclose why he is being held. He has not been charged.</i></p>

	<p>He has ceased to exist. He never existed.</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94768</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94768</guid>
		<description>I guess one thing to say is that you have quoted the Reuters article very selectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I guess one thing to say is that you have quoted the Reuters article very selectively.</p>
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		<title>By: Cameron King</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94767</link>
		<dc:creator>Cameron King</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 17:48:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94767</guid>
		<description>What&#039;s there to say?  How about &quot;who cares&quot;?  Just because he happens to work for Reuters doesn&#039;t mean he is immune from being a terrorist.  Journalists are no better or worse than anyone else, and no more apolitical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What&#8217;s there to say?  How about &#8220;who cares&#8221;?  Just because he happens to work for Reuters doesn&#8217;t mean he is immune from being a terrorist.  Journalists are no better or worse than anyone else, and no more apolitical.</p>
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		<title>By: dp</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94757</link>
		<dc:creator>dp</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94757</guid>
		<description>Perhaps Reuters&#039; coverage of the war will take on a subtle political tilt against the occupiers. We can only wish that the same thing would happen to a Murdoch reporter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perhaps Reuters&#8217; coverage of the war will take on a subtle political tilt against the occupiers. We can only wish that the same thing would happen to a Murdoch reporter.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94752</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94752</guid>
		<description>I wonder what they found on his camera.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wonder what they found on his camera.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/01/reuters-cameraman-held-in-iraq/comment-page-1/#comment-94747</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Sep 2005 16:28:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3733#comment-94747</guid>
		<description>Obviously he is less of a victim than Judy Miller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Obviously he is less of a victim than Judy Miller.</p>
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