<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Shot by Both Sides has died of its wounds</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2012 21:53:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rob Read</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99587</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob Read</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Sep 2005 10:05:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99587</guid>
		<description>couldn&#039;t stand him, but his shit kept the Internet flies away from the better sites.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>couldn&#8217;t stand him, but his shit kept the Internet flies away from the better sites.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ed thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99415</link>
		<dc:creator>ed thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99415</guid>
		<description>I sympathise with J.B., of course- though, as a BBBC poster sometimes it can be hard to find oneself indirectly or directly insulted. 

But one thing I would add is that the problem I found with SBBS is the incredible unevenness of the so-called satire. Sometimes J.B. would be reasoned and reasonable, sometimes not. Sometimes he would affect a persona, sometimes not. One felt, as a reader, somewhat manipulated- and that wasn&#039;t a question of literary intention, but something baser. I can cope with that, of course, but allied to the self-description of one who takes a middle course (shot by both sides), and reaps the benfits of surfing through the &#039;mainstream&#039;, it had a somewhat incendiary quality.

I feel, to put it bluntly, that SBBS exploited the very qualities of evenhandedness and reasonable good-blokishness that it affected to respect. It drew people in and then slammed doors in their faces- ha ha. Moreover it seemed to regard this quality at an evidence of intelligence and worthiness.

Well, just quibbling. I don&#039;t agree with anyone who might have damaged John B. with his employer. I believe that we&#039;re probably damaged by such tactics too. On the other hand I won&#039;t pretend that I thought SBBS was anything other than intelligent and stupid- mixed in an unfortunate and destructive ratio. I have preferred JB&#039;s more considered pieces at the Sharpener anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I sympathise with J.B., of course- though, as a <span class="caps">BBBC</span> poster sometimes it can be hard to find oneself indirectly or directly insulted.</p>

	<p>But one thing I would add is that the problem I found with <span class="caps">SBBS</span> is the incredible unevenness of the so-called satire. Sometimes J.B. would be reasoned and reasonable, sometimes not. Sometimes he would affect a persona, sometimes not. One felt, as a reader, somewhat manipulated- and that wasn&#8217;t a question of literary intention, but something baser. I can cope with that, of course, but allied to the self-description of one who takes a middle course (shot by both sides), and reaps the benfits of surfing through the &#8216;mainstream&#8217;, it had a somewhat incendiary quality.</p>

	<p>I feel, to put it bluntly, that <span class="caps">SBBS</span> exploited the very qualities of evenhandedness and reasonable good-blokishness that it affected to respect. It drew people in and then slammed doors in their faces- ha ha. Moreover it seemed to regard this quality at an evidence of intelligence and worthiness.</p>

	<p>Well, just quibbling. I don&#8217;t agree with anyone who might have damaged John B. with his employer. I believe that we&#8217;re probably damaged by such tactics too. On the other hand I won&#8217;t pretend that I thought <span class="caps">SBBS</span> was anything other than intelligent and stupid- mixed in an unfortunate and destructive ratio. I have preferred JB&#8217;s more considered pieces at the Sharpener anyway.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Squander Two</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99414</link>
		<dc:creator>Squander Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 10:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99414</guid>
		<description>I loved arguing with you, John.  Annoyed that my employers blocked the site.

Here&#039;s a suggestion.  Why not get someone who either is unemployed or whose employers are easy-going to republish your archives for you under a different name?  We&#039;d all know whose it really was, but you wouldn&#039;t be legally responsible for any of it.

A sad day for bloggers, I have to say.  We should find out who did this and do something nasty in return.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I loved arguing with you, John.  Annoyed that my employers blocked the site.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s a suggestion.  Why not get someone who either is unemployed or whose employers are easy-going to republish your archives for you under a different name?  We&#8217;d all know whose it really was, but you wouldn&#8217;t be legally responsible for any of it.</p>

	<p>A sad day for bloggers, I have to say.  We should find out who did this and do something nasty in return.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99356</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 21:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99356</guid>
		<description>Well, keep blogging at the Sharpener mate.

Good luck.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, keep blogging at the Sharpener mate.</p>

	<p>Good luck.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99326</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 20:22:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99326</guid>
		<description>I considered trading off my father&#039;s and my girlfriend&#039;s ethnicity for this very purpose, but then decided it&#039;d be lame of me.

(hmm, just noticed I&#039;ve typed the sbbs url in as my website. ever so slightly saddening.)

Cheers all for broadly kind comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I considered trading off my father&#8217;s and my girlfriend&#8217;s ethnicity for this very purpose, but then decided it&#8217;d be lame of me.</p>

	<p>(hmm, just noticed I&#8217;ve typed the sbbs url in as my website. ever so slightly saddening.)</p>

	<p>Cheers all for broadly kind comments.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99286</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 19:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99286</guid>
		<description>I think the contemporary PC rules stipulate that one is fully entitled to make ethnic/racial/religious jokes about one&#039;s own race/ethnicity/religion, no matter how tasteless; otherwise it may be considered extremely offensive. I think there was even a Seinfeld episode built on this phenomenon. 

Thus Swift&#039;s Modest Proposal is well within the boundaries. 

This John Band guy should&#039;ve declared himself Jewish (at least temporarily) and make all the gassing jokes he wants; otherwise it&#039;s way over the line. Must follow the rules.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think the contemporary PC rules stipulate that one is fully entitled to make ethnic/racial/religious jokes about one&#8217;s own race/ethnicity/religion, no matter how tasteless; otherwise it may be considered extremely offensive. I think there was even a Seinfeld episode built on this phenomenon.</p>

	<p>Thus Swift&#8217;s Modest Proposal is well within the boundaries.</p>

	<p>This John Band guy should&#8217;ve declared himself Jewish (at least temporarily) and make all the gassing jokes he wants; otherwise it&#8217;s way over the line. Must follow the rules.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99233</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:15:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99233</guid>
		<description>Perhaps you might want to take the matter up with your resident B-BBC crank, JohninLondon aka John Anderson, Natalie. 

Scary perhaps, but you don&#039;t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that this all kicked off about the time regular sparring matches took place at Harry&#039;s Place, here, SBBS and B-BBC, and why JohnB asked him to email him privately at about the same time JohnB&#039;s blog went silent.

As for tracking JohnB down, it wasn&#039;t that difficult - his site made reference to where he worked. 

The more worrying thing from your perspective, Natalie is having this kind of vindictive little man regularly keeping company on your blog&#039;s comment board.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Perhaps you might want to take the matter up with your resident B-BBC crank, JohninLondon aka John Anderson, Natalie.</p>

	<p>Scary perhaps, but you don&#8217;t need to be a rocket scientist to work out that this all kicked off about the time regular sparring matches took place at Harry&#8217;s Place, here, <span class="caps">SBBS</span> and B-BBC, and why JohnB asked him to email him privately at about the same time JohnB&#8217;s blog went silent.</p>

	<p>As for tracking JohnB down, it wasn&#8217;t that difficult &#8211; his site made reference to where he worked.</p>

	<p>The more worrying thing from your perspective, Natalie is having this kind of vindictive little man regularly keeping company on your blog&#8217;s comment board.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kenzdawg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99185</link>
		<dc:creator>kenzdawg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:32:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99185</guid>
		<description>I meant, and should have said, BBBC commentariat. For what my opinion is worth I don&#039;t think you&#039;re a crank at all, Nathalie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I meant, and should have said, <span class="caps">BBBC</span> commentariat. For what my opinion is worth I don&#8217;t think you&#8217;re a crank at all, Nathalie.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99184</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99184</guid>
		<description>Sufficiently vindictive that I would love to be similarly so to those who did it to him.

Alas, if only we knew who that actually was.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sufficiently vindictive that I would love to be similarly so to those who did it to him.</p>

	<p>Alas, if only we knew who that actually was.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Natalie Solent</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99181</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Solent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:58:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99181</guid>
		<description>Talk of the devil and (s)he will appear. I enjoyed sparring with John B and will miss his site.

I don&#039;t think that nosemonkey&#039;s defence of the gassing Jews remark is particularly convincing. The Bob Geldof part of that remark doesn&#039;t make the Jews part OK. Surely I don&#039;t really have to explain why.

But tracking John B down and threatening to destroy his career? Making him take down his archives? That is vindictive.

It is also scary.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Talk of the devil and (s)he will appear. I enjoyed sparring with John B and will miss his site.</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t think that nosemonkey&#8217;s defence of the gassing Jews remark is particularly convincing. The Bob Geldof part of that remark doesn&#8217;t make the Jews part OK. Surely I don&#8217;t really have to explain why.</p>

	<p>But tracking John B down and threatening to destroy his career? Making him take down his archives? That is vindictive.</p>

	<p>It is also scary.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: kenzdawg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99175</link>
		<dc:creator>kenzdawg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:43:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99175</guid>
		<description>Far from being a &quot;major irritant&quot; I seem to recall that the only people who followed John B to his blog were a few cranks from BBBC. To qualify as an irritant surely his drivellings would have had to have been of substance and genuinely meant. T&#039;was all in fun, remember?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Far from being a &#8220;major irritant&#8221; I seem to recall that the only people who followed John B to his blog were a few cranks from <span class="caps">BBBC</span>. To qualify as an irritant surely his drivellings would have had to have been of substance and genuinely meant. T&#8217;was all in fun, remember?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Nosemonkey</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99163</link>
		<dc:creator>Nosemonkey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:31:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99163</guid>
		<description>A subtle distinction, but an important one. He called for the Board of Deputies of British Jews to be gassed, but - ignoring the obvious fact that it wasn&#039;t meant at all seriously - that they were Jewish was incidental. Viz. &quot;Send the Board to the gas chambers, that&#039;s what I say (no, not for their ethnicity; for their fatuous whining. And obviously, the people who complain about Bob Geldof saying &#039;fuck&#039; on the telly should be ahead of them in the queue....)&quot;

Logically extrapolating from the attempted justifications in the comments here (and by some of the more self-righteous idiots in the comments section of Harry&#039;s Place), it would seem that wanting to gas people who complained about Geldof swearing is fine. As long as they aren&#039;t Jewish. Which, in my humble opinion, is significanly more patronisingly racist than anything I&#039;ve ever read of John B&#039;s.

Shot by Both Sides was a satirical site - not always satire of genius, but satirical nonetheless. John&#039;s whole persona on that site was, from everthing I can tell, merely that - a persona, an exaggeration of some of the worst excesses of the internet. To take that into the real world is less than pathetic. It&#039;d be akin to trying to get Swift booted out of the Church for writing &quot;A Modest proposal&quot; - after all, if he wrote that the children of poor Irish people should be used as food, he simply MUST have meant it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A subtle distinction, but an important one. He called for the Board of Deputies of British Jews to be gassed, but &#8211; ignoring the obvious fact that it wasn&#8217;t meant at all seriously &#8211; that they were Jewish was incidental. Viz. &#8220;Send the Board to the gas chambers, that&#8217;s what I say (no, not for their ethnicity; for their fatuous whining. And obviously, the people who complain about Bob Geldof saying &#8216;fuck&#8217; on the telly should be ahead of them in the queue&#8230;.)&#8221;</p>

	<p>Logically extrapolating from the attempted justifications in the comments here (and by some of the more self-righteous idiots in the comments section of Harry&#8217;s Place), it would seem that wanting to gas people who complained about Geldof swearing is fine. As long as they aren&#8217;t Jewish. Which, in my humble opinion, is significanly more patronisingly racist than anything I&#8217;ve ever read of John B&#8217;s.</p>

	<p>Shot by Both Sides was a satirical site &#8211; not always satire of genius, but satirical nonetheless. John&#8217;s whole persona on that site was, from everthing I can tell, merely that &#8211; a persona, an exaggeration of some of the worst excesses of the internet. To take that into the real world is less than pathetic. It&#8217;d be akin to trying to get Swift booted out of the Church for writing &#8220;A Modest proposal&#8221; &#8211; after all, if he wrote that the children of poor Irish people should be used as food, he simply <span class="caps">MUST</span> have meant it&#8230;</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99144</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 10:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99144</guid>
		<description>It turned out my hunch was spot-on - not only did someone (or some people) complain to John&#039;s employers, but they also threatened to contact the firm&#039;s clients and the national press.  Clearly, this wouldn&#039;t have done wonders for his career prospects - hence the site closure (which John said was the &quot;least worst option&quot;).

So let&#039;s just put this in perspective: while some may have been offended by what John wrote, others actually took it upon themselves to try to destroy his career.  

To say that these people are scum is something of an understatement - and I for one hope they&#039;re outed before they pull off another stunt like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It turned out my hunch was spot-on &#8211; not only did someone (or some people) complain to John&#8217;s employers, but they also threatened to contact the firm&#8217;s clients and the national press.  Clearly, this wouldn&#8217;t have done wonders for his career prospects &#8211; hence the site closure (which John said was the &#8220;least worst option&#8221;).</p>

	<p>So let&#8217;s just put this in perspective: while some may have been offended by what John wrote, others actually took it upon themselves to try to destroy his career.</p>

	<p>To say that these people are scum is something of an understatement &#8211; and I for one hope they&#8217;re outed before they pull off another stunt like this.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Eric</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99137</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:06:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99137</guid>
		<description>Anyway in dsqaured desire to call me a monkey and Chris Bertram&#039;s childish attempt to have a go at the pro-war left an important issue seems to be being missed.

On &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.stalinism.com/shot-by-both-sides/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Shot by by both Sides&lt;/a&gt; it currently says:

&lt;em&gt;For those of you who lied, twisted, cheated and bullied until the least worst choice available to me was to close the site, congratulations.&lt;/em&gt;

And on &lt;a href=&quot;http://backword.me.uk/2005/September/thedunces.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Backward Dave&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; site it says:

&lt;em&gt;Perhaps there’s no higher acclaim that being blackmailed by envious anonymous cunts.&lt;/em&gt;

While I had my disagreements with John B, I still think he was a decent enough bloke and do take exception to people who may have used blackmail and anonymous threats to force him to stop blogging (not even to merely apologise for the post). Certainly his site had become formulaic and merely offensive most of the time, but it was not a site that should have been effectively &quot;banned&quot;.

So what is going on here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anyway in dsqaured desire to call me a monkey and Chris Bertram&#8217;s childish attempt to have a go at the pro-war left an important issue seems to be being missed.</p>

	<p>On <a href="http://www.stalinism.com/shot-by-both-sides/" rel="nofollow">Shot by by both Sides</a> it currently says:</p>

	<p><em>For those of you who lied, twisted, cheated and bullied until the least worst choice available to me was to close the site, congratulations.</em></p>

	<p>And on <a href="http://backword.me.uk/2005/September/thedunces.html" rel="nofollow">Backward Dave&#8217;s</a> site it says:</p>

	<p><em>Perhaps there&#8217;s no higher acclaim that being blackmailed by envious anonymous cunts.</em></p>

	<p>While I had my disagreements with John B, I still think he was a decent enough bloke and do take exception to people who may have used blackmail and anonymous threats to force him to stop blogging (not even to merely apologise for the post). Certainly his site had become formulaic and merely offensive most of the time, but it was not a site that should have been effectively &#8220;banned&#8221;.</p>

	<p>So what is going on here?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/shot-by-both-sides-has-died-of-its-wounds/comment-page-1/#comment-99136</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 08:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3803#comment-99136</guid>
		<description>See also &quot;Where there were no doors&quot;:http://no-doors.blogspot.com/2005/09/surprising-revelation.html  (and the comments).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>See also <a href="<a" title="">Where there were no doors</a> href=&#8221;http://no-doors.blogspot.com/2005/09/surprising-revelation.html&#8221; rel=&#8221;nofollow&#8221;>http://no-doors.blogspot.com/2005/09/surprising-revelation.html  (and the comments).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Performance optimized by W3 Total Cache. Learn more: http://www.w3-edge.com/wordpress-plugins/

Minified using disk: basic
Page Caching using disk: enhanced

Served from: crookedtimber.org @ 2012-02-13 01:50:33 -->
