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	<title>Comments on: The Law in its Majesty</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-100401</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Sep 2005 22:18:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-100401</guid>
		<description>Chris W - So he thought that the law should permit the poor to sleep under bridges and beg in the streets and steal bread?  And it wouldn&#039;t have seemed equally sarcastic to him?

Annoying guy, going off and dying before I was born so I can&#039;t ask him.

Laws do tend to be more binding on those people who have reason to want to break them than those who don&#039;t.  And sometimes laws can be more binding on the poor than the rich.  That doesn&#039;t necessarily mean they&#039;re wrong.  For example, damage to your frontal lobes can both throw you into poverty (through inability to work) and make it vastly more difficult for you to avoid attacking someone.  Laws banning assault bind much more on vulnerable people with dangerous head injuries than on the average person - does that mean they&#039;re wrong?

In the cases Anatole cites, while I am rather inclined to believe that people should be allowed to sleep under bridges and so forth if they like (and it may be useful to any rich people who get caught out without shelter), allowing the free stealing of bread would result in there being no more bread to steal as the bakers, farmers, etc, decided to do something more rewarding with their time.  Better the law be equal and the government give money to the poor to buy their own bread.  

And in the case of immigration laws and regulations - surely the problem there comes from the inequality between those with citizenship and those without?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chris W &#8211; So he thought that the law should permit the poor to sleep under bridges and beg in the streets and steal bread?  And it wouldn&#8217;t have seemed equally sarcastic to him?</p>

	<p>Annoying guy, going off and dying before I was born so I can&#8217;t ask him.</p>

	<p>Laws do tend to be more binding on those people who have reason to want to break them than those who don&#8217;t.  And sometimes laws can be more binding on the poor than the rich.  That doesn&#8217;t necessarily mean they&#8217;re wrong.  For example, damage to your frontal lobes can both throw you into poverty (through inability to work) and make it vastly more difficult for you to avoid attacking someone.  Laws banning assault bind much more on vulnerable people with dangerous head injuries than on the average person &#8211; does that mean they&#8217;re wrong?</p>

	<p>In the cases Anatole cites, while I am rather inclined to believe that people should be allowed to sleep under bridges and so forth if they like (and it may be useful to any rich people who get caught out without shelter), allowing the free stealing of bread would result in there being no more bread to steal as the bakers, farmers, etc, decided to do something more rewarding with their time.  Better the law be equal and the government give money to the poor to buy their own bread.</p>

	<p>And in the case of immigration laws and regulations &#8211; surely the problem there comes from the inequality between those with citizenship and those without?</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99550</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 20:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99550</guid>
		<description>Hmmm, did anyone hear listen to the hearings?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmmm, did anyone hear listen to the hearings?</p>
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		<title>By: Squander Two</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99431</link>
		<dc:creator>Squander Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Sep 2005 14:13:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99431</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&gt; If only those who manipulate the stock market were pursued and punished as harsh as those who steal bread.&lt;/i&gt;

Right.  So you going to cite some case references for this bizarre implication that (a) bread-thieves rarely get away with their crimes because the police put such mammoth efforts into catching them and (b) theft of bread is typically punished with a stiffer sentence that the various types of stock-market fraud?


Kieran,

Your parallel is all wrong.  Rich people don&#039;t need to steal bread, because they can afford to buy it.  Rich people don&#039;t need to sleep under bridges, because they have houses.  White people don&#039;t need to appeal court decisions about schools, because... er....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>> If only those who manipulate the stock market were pursued and punished as harsh as those who steal bread.</i></p>

	<p>Right.  So you going to cite some case references for this bizarre implication that (a) bread-thieves rarely get away with their crimes because the police put such mammoth efforts into catching them and (b) theft of bread is typically punished with a stiffer sentence that the various types of stock-market fraud?</p>


	<p>Kieran,</p>

	<p>Your parallel is all wrong.  Rich people don&#8217;t need to steal bread, because they can afford to buy it.  Rich people don&#8217;t need to sleep under bridges, because they have houses.  White people don&#8217;t need to appeal court decisions about schools, because&#8230; er&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Gareth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99224</link>
		<dc:creator>Gareth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 18:02:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99224</guid>
		<description>If Roberts should not be confirmed because of this memo, no lawyer should be on the Supreme Court. Which would cause a bit of a problem.

The Democrats don&#039;t have the presidency, and they don&#039;t have a majority in the Senate. Bush appoints someone about whom the worst that can be said is that they worked for past Republican administrations. Who knows who he will appoint for the other vacancy? The Democrats need to keep their powder dry.

Grow up. Confirmation is going to be near unanimous.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If Roberts should not be confirmed because of this memo, no lawyer should be on the Supreme Court. Which would cause a bit of a problem.</p>

	<p>The Democrats don&#8217;t have the presidency, and they don&#8217;t have a majority in the Senate. Bush appoints someone about whom the worst that can be said is that they worked for past Republican administrations. Who knows who he will appoint for the other vacancy? The Democrats need to keep their powder dry.</p>

	<p>Grow up. Confirmation is going to be near unanimous.</p>
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		<title>By: Ralph Hitchens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99173</link>
		<dc:creator>Ralph Hitchens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 14:32:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99173</guid>
		<description>Tom T. &amp; ogged seem to have nailed this down.  It&#039;s ridiculous to read the memo and then conclude that Roberts is a racist.  The Constitution says what it says, and we either have to amend it or live with it.  As Roberts said in other memos around this time period, limiting jurisdiction is bad policy but the Government (Roberts&#039; client) certainly needed to be familiar with the constitutional arguments that would be put forward in defense of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tom T. &#038; ogged seem to have nailed this down.  It&#8217;s ridiculous to read the memo and then conclude that Roberts is a racist.  The Constitution says what it says, and we either have to amend it or live with it.  As Roberts said in other memos around this time period, limiting jurisdiction is bad policy but the Government (Roberts&#8217; client) certainly needed to be familiar with the constitutional arguments that would be put forward in defense of it.</p>
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		<title>By: Uncle Kvetch</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99159</link>
		<dc:creator>Uncle Kvetch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 13:15:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99159</guid>
		<description>You beat me to it, abb1.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You beat me to it, abb1.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99152</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 12:32:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99152</guid>
		<description>If only those who manipulate the stock market were pursued and punished as harsh as those who steal bread. That would be a different world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If only those who manipulate the stock market were pursued and punished as harsh as those who steal bread. That would be a different world.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Mouse</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99148</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Mouse</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 11:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99148</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.&lt;/em&gt;

To be completely fair to the law here, it also forbids the poor from insider share dealing, manipulating the stock market, monopolies on certain trade items and owning too large a percentage of the national media.

[Stealing unattributed an excellent riposte.]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, beg in the streets or steal bread.</em></p>

	<p>To be completely fair to the law here, it also forbids the poor from insider share dealing, manipulating the stock market, monopolies on certain trade items and owning too large a percentage of the national media.</p>

	<p>[Stealing unattributed an excellent riposte.]</p>
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		<title>By: rilkefan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99131</link>
		<dc:creator>rilkefan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 06:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99131</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;chris w&lt;/b&gt;, I think you&#039;ve got a back-formation, not an original quote.  OTOH I&#039;m relying on the top 20 google hits and not a library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>chris w</b>, I think you&#8217;ve got a back-formation, not an original quote.  <span class="caps">OTOH I</span>&#8217;m relying on the top 20 google hits and not a library.</p>
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		<title>By: snuh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99128</link>
		<dc:creator>snuh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 05:45:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99128</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Good grief, what a cheap hatchet job. roberts at the time argued against the jurisdiction stripping bills as bad policy, but provided a legal argument for why they might be constitutional...Again, whether something is good or bad policy, or even just or unjust, is not the same question as whether its constitutional or not. One can argue that a policy one opposes, even on grounds of grave injustice, is still within the power of Congress.&lt;/i&gt;

this seems to me to get it exactly ass-backwards. roberts is being considered for chief justice of the supreme court.  clearly, his opinion of whether the law is good or bad policy is, or should be, irrelevant.  but the question of whether he thinks the said law is constitutional is highly relevant, in that this is the question roberts would have to decide if it came before the court.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Good grief, what a cheap hatchet job. roberts at the time argued against the jurisdiction stripping bills as bad policy, but provided a legal argument for why they might be constitutional&#8230;Again, whether something is good or bad policy, or even just or unjust, is not the same question as whether its constitutional or not. One can argue that a policy one opposes, even on grounds of grave injustice, is still within the power of Congress.</i></p>

	<p>this seems to me to get it exactly ass-backwards. roberts is being considered for chief justice of the supreme court.  clearly, his opinion of whether the law is good or bad policy is, or should be, irrelevant.  but the question of whether he thinks the said law is constitutional is highly relevant, in that this is the question roberts would have to decide if it came before the court.</p>
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		<title>By: ogged</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-99126</link>
		<dc:creator>ogged</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 05:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-99126</guid>
		<description>Also in the preface: the memo was written at the behest of Ken Starr.  Yeesh.  

But, like Tom T. says, this was written as an exercise, marshalling arguments for just one side of a debate.  To claim that it represents Roberts&#039; views is unfair.  Also slightly unfair is the use of the phrase &quot;unequal treatment&quot; to describe what Roberts is writing about.  &quot;Treatment&quot; isn&#039;t &lt;i&gt;wrong&lt;/i&gt;, but conjures something broader than the issues of standing and levels of scrutiny that the memo is considering.

(That said, given that employment in Reagan&#039;s justice department wasn&#039;t mandatory, arguments that Roberts was just doing his job as a lawyer only go so far in quelling doubts about his personal views.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Also in the preface: the memo was written at the behest of Ken Starr.  Yeesh.</p>

	<p>But, like Tom T. says, this was written as an exercise, marshalling arguments for just one side of a debate.  To claim that it represents Roberts&#8217; views is unfair.  Also slightly unfair is the use of the phrase &#8220;unequal treatment&#8221; to describe what Roberts is writing about.  &#8220;Treatment&#8221; isn&#8217;t <i>wrong</i>, but conjures something broader than the issues of standing and levels of scrutiny that the memo is considering.</p>

	<p>(That said, given that employment in Reagan&#8217;s justice department wasn&#8217;t mandatory, arguments that Roberts was just doing his job as a lawyer only go so far in quelling doubts about his personal views.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom T.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-98990</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom T.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-98990</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.archives.gov/news/john-roberts/accession-60-89-0172/006-Box5-Folder1522.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is what looks to be the memorandum in question, with the cited passage found at pdf page 23, memo page 24 (page 5 is not reproduced here).  The NYRB&#039;s paraphrase seems accurate.  I suppose one should also note a passage from the preface at p.2:  &quot;This memo is prepared from a standpoint of advocacy of congressional power over the Supreme Court&#039;s appellate jurisdiction; it does not purport to be an objective review of the issue.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.archives.gov/news/john-roberts/accession-60-89-0172/006-Box5-Folder1522.pdf" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is what looks to be the memorandum in question, with the cited passage found at pdf page 23, memo page 24 (page 5 is not reproduced here).  The <span class="caps">NYRB</span>&#8217;s paraphrase seems accurate.  I suppose one should also note a passage from the preface at p.2:  &#8220;This memo is prepared from a standpoint of advocacy of congressional power over the Supreme Court&#8217;s appellate jurisdiction; it does not purport to be an objective review of the issue.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-98989</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:28:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-98989</guid>
		<description>@tracy (N°10): France&#039;s concern in this particular case wasn&#039;t with the existence of poverty per se, but with the fact that some laws -- repressive laws -- only apply to a particular, disadvantaged segment of the population: A law that forbids to sleep under bridges or steal bread will only be used to police the poor. 

(Just like the myriad immigration laws and regulations will never get someone in trouble who holds the relevant citizenship.)

I don&#039;t imagine many states have law that explicitly allow sleeping under bridges, even though it may be allowed by default if there&#039;s no law about it.
Oh, and I cut off the end of the original cite: &quot;... de mendier dans les rues et voler du pain.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>@tracy (N&#176;10): France&#8217;s concern in this particular case wasn&#8217;t with the existence of poverty per se, but with the fact that some laws&#8212;repressive laws&#8212;only apply to a particular, disadvantaged segment of the population: A law that forbids to sleep under bridges or steal bread will only be used to police the poor.</p>

	<p>(Just like the myriad immigration laws and regulations will never get someone in trouble who holds the relevant citizenship.)</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t imagine many states have law that explicitly allow sleeping under bridges, even though it may be allowed by default if there&#8217;s no law about it.<br />
Oh, and I cut off the end of the original cite: &#8220;&#8230; de mendier dans les rues et voler du pain.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Chris W.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-98988</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris W.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Sep 2005 00:14:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-98988</guid>
		<description>He may well have been familiar with the quote, but why on earth would he be expected to subscribe to a quasi-communist socialist writer&#039;s opinions? 

I&#039;d have thought he&#039;d be very much opposed to the likes of Anatole France anyway.

(The French original: &quot;La majestueuse égalité des lois interdit aux riches comme aux pauvres de coucher sous les ponts,&quot; 

So &quot;majestueux&quot; qualifies &quot;égalité&quot;. Unfortunately, &quot;majestueux&quot; is not precisely the same as &quot;majestic&quot;, nor is &quot;égalité&quot; exactly  &quot;equality&quot;. My stab at a translation: &quot;The law in its lofty concern for equality [maybe better: &quot;in its noble even-handedness&quot;] forbids  rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges.&quot;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>He may well have been familiar with the quote, but why on earth would he be expected to subscribe to a quasi-communist socialist writer&#8217;s opinions?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;d have thought he&#8217;d be very much opposed to the likes of Anatole France anyway.</p>

	<p>(The French original: &#8220;La majestueuse &#233;galit&#233; des lois interdit aux riches comme aux pauvres de coucher sous les ponts,&#8221;</p>

	<p>So &#8220;majestueux&#8221; qualifies &#8220;&#233;galit&#233;&#8221;. Unfortunately, &#8220;majestueux&#8221; is not precisely the same as &#8220;majestic&#8221;, nor is &#8220;&#233;galit&#233;&#8221; exactly  &#8220;equality&#8221;. My stab at a translation: &#8220;The law in its lofty concern for equality [maybe better: &#8220;in its noble even-handedness&#8221;] forbids  rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges.&#8221;]</p>
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		<title>By: Ted</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/comment-page-1/#comment-98985</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2005 23:45:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/13/the-law-in-its-majesty/#comment-98985</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m sure the 55 Republican Senators will all
be moved to vote against the Roberst nomination
becuase of an analyses in the NYRB.  Right
after they finish their review of the latest
in ID Magazine :-}

I bet Hillary votes FOR Roberts.  And she
even represents the state from which the NYRB
is published.

80+ for Roberts confirmation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m sure the 55 Republican Senators will all<br />
be moved to vote against the Roberst nomination<br />
becuase of an analyses in the <span class="caps">NYRB</span>.  Right<br />
after they finish their review of the latest<br />
in <span class="caps">ID </span>Magazine :-}</p>

	<p>I bet Hillary votes <span class="caps">FOR </span>Roberts.  And she<br />
even represents the state from which the <span class="caps">NYRB</span><br />
is published.</p>

	<p>80+ for Roberts confirmation?</p>
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