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	<title>Comments on: Some Data on Families in the Workforce</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Tom Hudson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-102969</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Sep 2005 01:29:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-102969</guid>
		<description>My wife, thinking of her parents, points out that in the last few years more Baby Boomers have reached retirable age. That&#039;s moved both our sets of parents from two-earner to single-earner households.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My wife, thinking of her parents, points out that in the last few years more Baby Boomers have reached retirable age. That&#8217;s moved both our sets of parents from two-earner to single-earner households.</p>
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		<title>By: Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What I&#8217;m reading</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-102635</link>
		<dc:creator>Noli Irritare Leones &#187; Blog Archive &#187; What I&#8217;m reading</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Sep 2005 20:30:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-102635</guid>
		<description>[...] Kieran also follows up with Some Data on Families in the Workforce  The timing of the declines in both dual-earner families and mothers’ labor force participation look to me as though they are driven by sensitivity to prevailing labor market conditions rather than any widespread change in attitudes to work and motherhood. But what do I know? At any rate, it’s good to have a resource like the BLS to hand, if only to add a bit of context to your survey of 60-odd Yale and Harvard students. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] Kieran also follows up with Some Data on Families in the Workforce  The timing of the declines in both dual-earner families and mothers&#8217; labor force participation look to me as though they are driven by sensitivity to prevailing labor market conditions rather than any widespread change in attitudes to work and motherhood. But what do I know? At any rate, it&#8217;s good to have a resource like the <span class="caps">BLS</span> to hand, if only to add a bit of context to your survey of 60-odd Yale and Harvard students. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: James Chalmers</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-102247</link>
		<dc:creator>James Chalmers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 19:47:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-102247</guid>
		<description>&quot;The next figure shows trends in the labor force participation rate of mothers with children under the age of 18. (You can get it as a PDF file.) Here the trend (obviously) is one of consistent growth.&quot;

Austern is right. The trend is one of consistent growth until 2000 when for sure the numbers turn down and maybe something significant occurred. Brings to mind Stein&#039;s First Law, &quot;If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.&quot; Though in this instance, it may have stopped shy of the male rate. 
  Notice too that the original NYT piece was mostly about women with more real choices than the rest of the labor force--highly educated and pretty well off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The next figure shows trends in the labor force participation rate of mothers with children under the age of 18. (You can get it as a <span class="caps">PDF</span> file.) Here the trend (obviously) is one of consistent growth.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Austern is right. The trend is one of consistent growth until 2000 when for sure the numbers turn down and maybe something significant occurred. Brings to mind Stein&#8217;s First Law, &#8220;If something cannot go on forever, it will stop.&#8221; Though in this instance, it may have stopped shy of the male rate.<br />
Notice too that the original <span class="caps">NYT</span> piece was mostly about women with more real choices than the rest of the labor force&#8212;highly educated and pretty well off.</p>
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		<title>By: Elizabeth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-102106</link>
		<dc:creator>Elizabeth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Sep 2005 15:26:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-102106</guid>
		<description>On the question of what happened in previous recessions, you should take a look at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1994/07/art4full.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; this BLS paper&lt;/a&gt; entitled &quot;Are Women Leaving the Labor Force?&quot;  The interesting thing about it is that it was published in 1994, during a recession, just before women&#039;s labor force participation hit new all time highs.

My analysis of the trends (from about a year ago) is at &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2004/10/whos_opting_out.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2004/10/whos_opting_out.html&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On the question of what happened in previous recessions, you should take a look at <a href="http://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/1994/07/art4full.pdf" rel="nofollow"> this <span class="caps">BLS</span> paper</a> entitled &#8220;Are Women Leaving the Labor Force?&#8221;  The interesting thing about it is that it was published in 1994, during a recession, just before women&#8217;s labor force participation hit new all time highs.</p>

	<p>My analysis of the trends (from about a year ago) is at <a href="http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2004/10/whos_opting_out.html" rel="nofollow"> </a><a href="http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2004/10/whos_opting_out.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.halfchangedworld.com/2004/10/whos_opting_out.html</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101792</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101792</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s a textbook example of amateurish social science research, and of reporters’ inability to write about quantitative subjects.&quot;

People don&#039;t want to read quantitative social science research in the morning paper.  They want to gossip about stuff.  The NY Times article has got us all gossiping, hence it was a good article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s a textbook example of amateurish social science research, and of reporters&#8217; inability to write about quantitative subjects.&#8221;</p>

	<p>People don&#8217;t want to read quantitative social science research in the morning paper.  They want to gossip about stuff.  The <span class="caps">NY </span>Times article has got us all gossiping, hence it was a good article.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara Marwell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101790</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara Marwell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 19:04:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101790</guid>
		<description>As a 66-year old woman who had children, a career that was part-time when my children were young; full-time as they moved into middle and high school;  and a husband who eared a good but not corporate lawyer or investment banker income, I am interested in some of the implications of this alleged trend.  Although the NYTimes article may have been sloppy and based on 60 Harvard and Yale women, the recourse to BLS data may be masking something that really is happening. 

I observe my daughter-in-law who fits the NYTimes description: 40 now, Yale graduate, high-powered career that was dropped partly because of the dot.com bust, partly because of difficulties in finding good reliable childcare; financially successful husband.  Most of her friends (and she has a large circle, albeit not any kind of sample) are following the same course.   The subjects of the article may not be a large group of women; but perhaps a significant one that deserves a careful, systematic survey to determine what is happening. 

My concerns are not for these women now, but for their feelings of self-esteem and satisfaction with their lives when they are in their later forties and fifties, with children who do not require as much physical care.  Will we be in another version of the feminine mystique?  More importantly, when will we as a society provide appropriate supports and make the kinds of adaptations, especially in the workplace, that will permit highly-educated men AND women to have satisfying family, professional and personal lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As a 66-year old woman who had children, a career that was part-time when my children were young; full-time as they moved into middle and high school;  and a husband who eared a good but not corporate lawyer or investment banker income, I am interested in some of the implications of this alleged trend.  Although the NYTimes article may have been sloppy and based on 60 Harvard and Yale women, the recourse to <span class="caps">BLS</span> data may be masking something that really is happening.</p>

	<p>I observe my daughter-in-law who fits the NYTimes description: 40 now, Yale graduate, high-powered career that was dropped partly because of the dot.com bust, partly because of difficulties in finding good reliable childcare; financially successful husband.  Most of her friends (and she has a large circle, albeit not any kind of sample) are following the same course.   The subjects of the article may not be a large group of women; but perhaps a significant one that deserves a careful, systematic survey to determine what is happening.</p>

	<p>My concerns are not for these women now, but for their feelings of self-esteem and satisfaction with their lives when they are in their later forties and fifties, with children who do not require as much physical care.  Will we be in another version of the feminine mystique?  More importantly, when will we as a society provide appropriate supports and make the kinds of adaptations, especially in the workplace, that will permit highly-educated men <span class="caps">AND</span> women to have satisfying family, professional and personal lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Austern</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101761</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Austern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 16:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101761</guid>
		<description>The flap about the Times article is not because people think the trend it reports on is a bad thing. The flap is because the article is an incredibly sloppy piece of work, and the article gives no reason to take seriously the claim that the trend is there in the first place. The article uses vague words like &quot;many&quot; that result in the article saying nothing while pretending to say a lot, and it asserts that there is a trend without showing any evidence that things are different today than they were in the past. It&#039;s a textbook example of amateurish social science research, and of reporters&#039; inability to write about quantitative subjects.

Kieran&#039;s graphs on labor force participation are interesting. They do seem to show a clear decades-long trend, and a smaller but also clear change some time around 2000. It would be interesting to learn more about what that change means.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The flap about the Times article is not because people think the trend it reports on is a bad thing. The flap is because the article is an incredibly sloppy piece of work, and the article gives no reason to take seriously the claim that the trend is there in the first place. The article uses vague words like &#8220;many&#8221; that result in the article saying nothing while pretending to say a lot, and it asserts that there is a trend without showing any evidence that things are different today than they were in the past. It&#8217;s a textbook example of amateurish social science research, and of reporters&#8217; inability to write about quantitative subjects.</p>

	<p>Kieran&#8217;s graphs on labor force participation are interesting. They do seem to show a clear decades-long trend, and a smaller but also clear change some time around 2000. It would be interesting to learn more about what that change means.</p>
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		<title>By: theorajones</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101737</link>
		<dc:creator>theorajones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:11:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101737</guid>
		<description>I agree with Eudoxis--we hear all the time that women who aren&#039;t earning money have wasted their education. 

This is somewhat bizarre, as earning money is no evidence you&#039;re using your education, and certainly no evidence that you&#039;re contributing to society. 

Just another example of that old double standard in action--women&#039;s work isn&#039;t as valued as men&#039;s, so women who raise kids are forced to point out all the OTHER things they also do in order to get respect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I agree with Eudoxis&#8212;we hear all the time that women who aren&#8217;t earning money have wasted their education.</p>

	<p>This is somewhat bizarre, as earning money is no evidence you&#8217;re using your education, and certainly no evidence that you&#8217;re contributing to society.</p>

	<p>Just another example of that old double standard in action&#8212;women&#8217;s work isn&#8217;t as valued as men&#8217;s, so women who raise kids are forced to point out all the <span class="caps">OTHER</span> things they also do in order to get respect.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101735</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 15:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101735</guid>
		<description>Tad, I continue to blame any unclarity on my sleepy state when I wrote this. Maybe just something like &quot;Some Data on Families in the Workforce&quot; would be better. I&#039;ll change it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Tad, I continue to blame any unclarity on my sleepy state when I wrote this. Maybe just something like &#8220;Some Data on Families in the Workforce&#8221; would be better. I&#8217;ll change it.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101728</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:45:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101728</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The thing that really strikes me about the NYT story by Louise Story is that it does not recognize just how difficult it looks to be a dual-earner family in your twenties with kids. Young, ambitious women know that the reality is that they have two choices: advance or see their kids, spouse, friends. This isn’t really a choice.&lt;/i&gt;
It&#039;s an unpleasant choice even in your thirties or forties and even when a spouse has a high income and it makes more sense to stay home.  

I think that the problem this choice presents is greater for women in ambitious careers because of increased time and emotional sacrifices such careers demand.  It is at the same time more difficult to give up such a career and more difficult to raise a family.  

I disagree with Kieran that there is no loss of social status for women with high earning spouses who choose to stay home with children.  The reason for that is that many women in that stratum do have careers and form a powerful social incentive to be superwoman.  Even comments of the last few posts indicate a disdain for women who supposedly choose to live a life of leisure.  It&#039;s rarely the case that smart and ambitious women at home do nothing but raise children.  Just for example, they play an important role in community, the arts, and support networks that are no less hard work because they are largely uncompensated.  (Plus, they run errands and blog on their own time.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The thing that really strikes me about the <span class="caps">NYT</span> story by Louise Story is that it does not recognize just how difficult it looks to be a dual-earner family in your twenties with kids. Young, ambitious women know that the reality is that they have two choices: advance or see their kids, spouse, friends. This isn&#8217;t really a choice.</i><br />
It&#8217;s an unpleasant choice even in your thirties or forties and even when a spouse has a high income and it makes more sense to stay home.</p>

	<p>I think that the problem this choice presents is greater for women in ambitious careers because of increased time and emotional sacrifices such careers demand.  It is at the same time more difficult to give up such a career and more difficult to raise a family.</p>

	<p>I disagree with Kieran that there is no loss of social status for women with high earning spouses who choose to stay home with children.  The reason for that is that many women in that stratum do have careers and form a powerful social incentive to be superwoman.  Even comments of the last few posts indicate a disdain for women who supposedly choose to live a life of leisure.  It&#8217;s rarely the case that smart and ambitious women at home do nothing but raise children.  Just for example, they play an important role in community, the arts, and support networks that are no less hard work because they are largely uncompensated.  (Plus, they run errands and blog on their own time.)</p>
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		<title>By: tina</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101724</link>
		<dc:creator>tina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:33:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101724</guid>
		<description>oo! these graphs will be great for my soc of gender class! thanks for the time-saver, Kieran!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>oo! these graphs will be great for my soc of gender class! thanks for the time-saver, Kieran!</p>
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		<title>By: Tad Brennan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101723</link>
		<dc:creator>Tad Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:31:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101723</guid>
		<description>small point on the title of this post--

&quot;Family earning trends&quot; sounds to this (non-economist, non-sociologist) reader&#039;s ear as though it will tell me about changes in dollar-values (earnings): e.g., did household income go up or down; did households with husband-only employed see faster growth in household income than two-job couples, etc.

I really don&#039;t see much in this post about &quot;earning trends&quot; in the sense of &quot;trends in what people earn, sc. dollars&quot;.  So is there a different sense of &quot;earning&quot; in your discipline in which it means &quot;participation in the labor force&quot;?  Or should this post be titled, e.g. &quot;Some data on labor participation trends&quot; or the like?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>small point on the title of this post&#8212;<br />
&#8220;Family earning trends&#8221; sounds to this (non-economist, non-sociologist) reader&#8217;s ear as though it will tell me about changes in dollar-values (earnings): e.g., did household income go up or down; did households with husband-only employed see faster growth in household income than two-job couples, etc.</p>

	<p>I really don&#8217;t see much in this post about &#8220;earning trends&#8221; in the sense of &#8220;trends in what people earn, sc. dollars&#8221;.  So is there a different sense of &#8220;earning&#8221; in your discipline in which it means &#8220;participation in the labor force&#8221;?  Or should this post be titled, e.g. &#8220;Some data on labor participation trends&#8221; or the like?</p>
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		<title>By: Outside The Beltway</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101717</link>
		<dc:creator>Outside The Beltway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:09:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101717</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Family Earnings by Gender&lt;/strong&gt;

	Many Ivy League women are joining what appears to be a trend:  married women chosing to give up their careers to be full-time stay-at-home mothers.

Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood (NYT, Sept. 20)

	 Many women at the nation...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><strong>Family Earnings by Gender</strong></p>

	<p>Many Ivy League women are joining what appears to be a trend:  married women chosing to give up their careers to be full-time stay-at-home mothers.</p>

	<p>Many Women at Elite Colleges Set Career Path to Motherhood (NYT, Sept. 20)</p>

	<p>Many women at the nation&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101715</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 14:05:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101715</guid>
		<description>On reflection (i.e., next morning) I think the labor market slackness comment is probably off the mark. By the way, I didn&#039;t have a particular axe to grind when going to look up these trends -- I just wanted to see what the typical arrangements had been over a long period.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>On reflection (i.e., next morning) I think the labor market slackness comment is probably off the mark. By the way, I didn&#8217;t have a particular axe to grind when going to look up these trends&#8212;I just wanted to see what the typical arrangements had been over a long period.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/comment-page-1/#comment-101707</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Sep 2005 13:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/22/some-data-on-family-earning-trends/#comment-101707</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The graph is titled “employment rate” but the Y-axis is labelled “participation rate&lt;/i&gt;

Whoops -- yes, as you say, it&#039;s the participation rate that&#039;s being shown here. It was a bit late at night when I did this: I&#039;ll relabel the graph so the title is right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The graph is titled &#8220;employment rate&#8221; but the Y-axis is labelled &#8220;participation rate</i></p>

	<p>Whoops&#8212;yes, as you say, it&#8217;s the participation rate that&#8217;s being shown here. It was a bit late at night when I did this: I&#8217;ll relabel the graph so the title is right.</p>
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