I’d check your sources. The PIRA usually gave warnings prior to bombings in commercial areas (there were even codewords used to validate the warnings). The worst of the IRA bombings (bloody friday, and the CIRA’s bombings in Omagh) were when the bomb location given in the warning was inaccurate. (How do I know? Well, being evacuated from your home at 5:00 am burns it into you). The only non-warning bombing that comes into my head is the Narrow Water Castle bombing that killed 18 soldiers. I’m no fan of the PIRA, but they did make a more-than-rhetorical distinction between so-called legitimate targets and the rest of the population.

I’ll also point out how badly internment in the early 1970s and mistreatment of internees backfired on the UK government. Most rounded up during internment weren’t connected to the PIRA; but the PIRA didn’t lack for recruits afterwards.

And thus break it’s own laws. Do you ever wonder why they call it a crime against humanity?

By the way, the above comment of yours renders the following comment of yours a lie:

I’m in no way condoning torture

Poppycock. You most certainly are.

Thousands of people are being blown to pieces by terrorists. If the grand intelligence of a Democracy decides that torture is a good way to fight this, so be it. (jet)

Thousands of people are being tortured. If the Grand Intelligence of Osama bin-Laden decides that terrorism is a good way to fight this, so be it.

“It is wrong (since it is secret), but I find it hard to get worked up about.”

Try again. What kind of treatment of detainees would actually get you worked up? What would make you give a shit? C’mon. I just want some pointers on what you’ll be making excuses for in six months’ time.

The Badr militia and SCIRI are wildly popular amongst Shi’ites and their methods (via the ministry of interior) make the coalitions look like the work of pacifists. They are pretty much the work of a democracy.

Precisely. Now, jet, could you answer my question? Because there’s an awful lot of accepting in your account of what you consider ‘unacceptable’. I’m looking for something a little less weasely.

Jack, you’re kind of your own refutation. Your turning questions into statements and being purposefully obtuse shows we have no way of communicating and nor do you want to.

For the obtuse and hysterical, I’m in no way condoning torture. But the joint coalition/Iraqi court system often lets powerful criminals/insurgents go, so until the system is fixed, we will see abuses. I say we start with a full Congressional accounting of the mechanics of the coalition occupation. Perhaps a 9/11 style investigation with a report on what exactly has happened. This baseball bat torture is just another symptom of much larger problems.

Torture is necessary R&R for Gis
I’ve found torture to be wrong from a civilian point of view, but I wonder how soldiers feel about it

and

With all those innocent cops and civilians blow up, it is quite possible the soldiers want some payback.

Torture is not damaging to the reputation of the US.
“here are not just two sides in this situation, the rest of the world has TV too…”
And that is my point. I really wonder what the US soldiers think about their audiences?

Torture is an effective deterrent to resistance to US forces.
Perhaps they are trying to send a message to the future volunteer insrugents.

Torture of innocents is not as serious as beheading of soldiers.
They have to start targetting civilians and sawing off heads to even reach parity.

Torture is not the main thing people have against us.
And I’d bet that the military in Iraq fully understands that a poll of the Middle-East on why do you hate the US invasion in Iraq the most would have “Christian invaders” several spots above “torture of prisoners”.

The only reason not to torture is fear of being tortured.
And it isn’t like they are going to lose their prisoner treatment parity.

and

It is wrong (since it is secret), but I find it hard to get worked up about.

Or perhaps it’s the realisation that re-upping (and getting the signing benefits) is preferable to being stop-lossed or called up out of the reserves? Obviously you don’t read that much military news.

And you haven’t answered my question, have you?

It is true that torture has been practiced by both sides in just about all the guerilla “dirty” wars we have seen in this century (Algeria, Vietnam, etc.), so it is not surprising that our troops are engaging in it here. This is, as usual, the fault of the Bush administration for getting our troops into a particularly dirty and nasty guerilla war with a hostile, alien population, with no ability to engage in it effectively and no plans for handling intelligence.

I look forward to the replies from Bush apologists (I think we should stop calling them ‘conservatives’ as that ideology has a long and honorable intellectual history) arguing as usual that the manifest incompetence and stupidity we have displayed through the Iraq war is the fault of “the terrorists”. It is true that we couldn’t have fought this war in a manner more damaging to this country’s interests if an Al Qaeda member was in charge of the Pentagon, so perhaps there is a sleeper agent somewhere.

To what Randy and Belle said, I would add only that even the hypothetical ticking bomb scenario is not an adequate argument for making ex ante exceptions to an anti-torture policy.

If Heroic Agent Jack Bauer really does find himself in the highly unlikely position of needing to torture the location of a bomb out of someone, then he can go right ahead and perform whatever unlawful acts he deems necessary. Then he can walk straight down the hall, lock himself in a cell, and prepare himself for a long stay. If others later deem his actions justified, then perhaps he will receive a pardon.

It simply isn’t necessary to invite abuse by listing a bunch of hypothetical conditions where torture would be “justified”. It should work just as well to declare that torture and mistreatment will be severely punished across the board. G-men who believe that an exception needs to be made should weigh that need against the personal consequences they will face should they be mistaken.

Torture is necessary R&R for GIs

Torture is not damaging to the reputation of the US.

Torture is an effective deterrent to resistance to US forces.

Torture of innocents is not as serious as beheading of soldiers.

Torture is not the main thing people have against us.

The only reason not to torture is fear of being tortured.

That’s six impossible things to believe before breakfast. It is also the thinking of a psychopath.

Jet, accepting that, how are we the good guys? Cooperate with the US —we will torture people if you don’t but not quite as badly as the other guys will? It doesn’t even work as a threat. Can you think of a reason not to be cruel to animals?