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	<title>Comments on: Van Inwagen&#8217;s laugh test</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Osner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-104473</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Osner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-104473</guid>
		<description>BTW saw an excellent idea recently contained in an otherwise non-memorable work of fiction -- a department store whose slogan was &quot;(Store Name) -- we&#039;re everything that is the case!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BTW</span> saw an excellent idea recently contained in an otherwise non-memorable work of fiction&#8212;a department store whose slogan was &#8220;(Store Name)&#8212;we&#8217;re everything that is the case!&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Jeremy Osner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-104472</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremy Osner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-104472</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;There is no void...  There is only ‘being’ &lt;/em&gt;

Tell it to my imaginary friend.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>There is no void&#8230;  There is only &#8216;being&#8217; </em></p>

	<p>Tell it to my imaginary friend.</p>
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		<title>By: mikmik</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-104455</link>
		<dc:creator>mikmik</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2005 16:51:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-104455</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;Not chimps, not water, but void.&lt;/b&gt;

There is no void. There is no such object as nothing. There is only &#039;being&#039;, and all else/anything/whatever is undefineable.

I cannot compare &#039;all of existence&#039; to anything (LOL)

#1, keith m ellis, looks like rain! :O) (I guess even talking about the weather is more usefull than comparing, well, this thread to anything relevent)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>Not chimps, not water, but void.</b></p>

	<p>There is no void. There is no such object as nothing. There is only &#8216;being&#8217;, and all else/anything/whatever is undefineable.</p>

	<p>I cannot compare &#8216;all of existence&#8217; to anything (LOL)</p>

	<p>#1, keith m ellis, looks like rain! :O) (I guess even talking about the weather is more usefull than comparing, well, this thread to anything relevent)</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103917</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 13:56:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103917</guid>
		<description>Re: (123) Your public display of laughter demonstrates (see 80) an attempt to separate oneself from the &#039;foolishness&#039; of others. In reality we are all in this foolishness together, otherwise we wouldn&#039;t be here. But then again, would a monkey invest so much time in a laughable activity? Hmmm, perhaps we are getting a bit closer to what makes us humans different from the rest of big-brained primates. We humans willingly expend so much energy on laughable activities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: (123) Your public display of laughter demonstrates (see 80) an attempt to separate oneself from the &#8216;foolishness&#8217; of others. In reality we are all in this foolishness together, otherwise we wouldn&#8217;t be here. But then again, would a monkey invest so much time in a laughable activity? Hmmm, perhaps we are getting a bit closer to what makes us humans different from the rest of big-brained primates. We humans willingly expend so much energy on laughable activities.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103875</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 06:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103875</guid>
		<description>I believe Vonnegut wrote a novel about this (Galapagos Islands?) where he complains repeatedly about big brains being the worst, most disadvantageous characteristic of the human species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I believe Vonnegut wrote a novel about this (Galapagos Islands?) where he complains repeatedly about big brains being the worst, most disadvantageous characteristic of the human species.</p>
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		<title>By: spacetoast</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103865</link>
		<dc:creator>spacetoast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2005 03:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103865</guid>
		<description>To me, the most laughable idea here is that this post was earnestly intended to cull the considered opinions of scientists and metaphysicians.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To me, the most laughable idea here is that this post was earnestly intended to cull the considered opinions of scientists and metaphysicians.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103691</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103691</guid>
		<description>Understanding that we&#039;re neither somehow separate from the rest of the natural phenomena of the universe, nor are we the universe&#039;s reason for existing, is not false but genuine humility, and is esential to prevent us from imagining that we will always succeed in engineering ourselves out of the consequences of our foolishness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Understanding that we&#8217;re neither somehow separate from the rest of the natural phenomena of the universe, nor are we the universe&#8217;s reason for existing, is not false but genuine humility, and is esential to prevent us from imagining that we will always succeed in engineering ourselves out of the consequences of our foolishness.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103686</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:39:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103686</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Perhaps if we spent less time congratulating ourselves on how marvelously special we are, we might stand a better chance of surviving for more than a few additional generations.&lt;/i&gt;

That is a nice expression of the underlying &quot;we&#039;re not so special&quot; political stance.  But you&#039;ve got it exactly backwards, I think.  We are in danger of global calamities &lt;i&gt;only because&lt;/i&gt; we are so marvelously special.  Because we not only adapt to every environment on the planet, but engineer the environment (and even the organisms that live there) to suit ourselves, and so we exist in vast numbers--numbers that are otherwise unheard of for such large mammmals.  Because we not only use readily available solar energy, but also energy from minerals stored deep within the earth.  Because we have reverse-engineered the stars and recreated their power on Earth (which power may someday be used to obliterate us).

We are so dangerous precisely because we are so exceptional, and false modesty and humbleness (we&#039;re really just a bunch of &#039;East African Plains Apes&#039;) is not going to save us.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Perhaps if we spent less time congratulating ourselves on how marvelously special we are, we might stand a better chance of surviving for more than a few additional generations.</i></p>

	<p>That is a nice expression of the underlying &#8220;we&#8217;re not so special&#8221; political stance.  But you&#8217;ve got it exactly backwards, I think.  We are in danger of global calamities <i>only because</i> we are so marvelously special.  Because we not only adapt to every environment on the planet, but engineer the environment (and even the organisms that live there) to suit ourselves, and so we exist in vast numbers&#8212;numbers that are otherwise unheard of for such large mammmals.  Because we not only use readily available solar energy, but also energy from minerals stored deep within the earth.  Because we have reverse-engineered the stars and recreated their power on Earth (which power may someday be used to obliterate us).</p>

	<p>We are so dangerous precisely because we are so exceptional, and false modesty and humbleness (we&#8217;re really just a bunch of &#8216;East African Plains Apes&#8217;) is not going to save us.</p>
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		<title>By: Keith M Ellis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103684</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith M Ellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 17:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103684</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;DNA comparisons of species may demonstrate a common ancestor. It may simply demonstrate that DNA strands for bipedal locomotion and back hair are the same regardless of species.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Steve isn&#039;t explaining why you&#039;re confused.  Perhaps if you consider the methods of determination of linguistic family trees will help.  Note that the &lt;i&gt;function&lt;/i&gt; of a particular string of characters is a &lt;i&gt;clue&lt;/i&gt; (among many) to phylogeny but is certainly not determinative by itself and, in fact, may be purely coincidental.  This this is often not understood is the problem for many or most folk etymologies.  There is a strong parallel here to genetic phylogeny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;DNA comparisons of species may demonstrate a common ancestor. It may simply demonstrate that <span class="caps">DNA</span> strands for bipedal locomotion and back hair are the same regardless of species.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Steve isn&#8217;t explaining why you&#8217;re confused.  Perhaps if you consider the methods of determination of linguistic family trees will help.  Note that the <i>function</i> of a particular string of characters is a <i>clue</i> (among many) to phylogeny but is certainly not determinative by itself and, in fact, may be purely coincidental.  This this is often not understood is the problem for many or most folk etymologies.  There is a strong parallel here to genetic phylogeny.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103669</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 16:00:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103669</guid>
		<description>James, sorry, no. But thanks for playing.

Those who are curious and brighter than James might enjoy &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540425640/qid=1127836703/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-6978704-1175005?v=glance&amp;s=books&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; this book. &lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James, sorry, no. But thanks for playing.</p>

	<p>Those who are curious and brighter than James might enjoy <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/3540425640/qid=1127836703/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/103-6978704-1175005?v=glance&#038;s=books" rel="nofollow"> this book. </a></p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103667</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:56:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103667</guid>
		<description>Steve LaBonne:  Molecular phylogeny as in the basis behind DNA testing for paternity.  Nope never heard of it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Steve LaBonne:  Molecular phylogeny as in the basis behind <span class="caps">DNA</span> testing for paternity.  Nope never heard of it.</p>
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		<title>By: jet</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103665</link>
		<dc:creator>jet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103665</guid>
		<description>&quot;As an alternative to overstraining the capacity of the planet to support our existence&quot;.  Someone needs to contact the WHO, their estimated max population of 9 billion in the middle of the century followed by a slow decline, is all wrong according to Steve.  How can we ever support 1/3 more people?  Maybe it will have something to do with moving already existing cropland up to industrialized yield norms?  Heck all those scientists working on GM foods might even have a breakthrough or two.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;As an alternative to overstraining the capacity of the planet to support our existence&#8221;.  Someone needs to contact the <span class="caps">WHO</span>, their estimated max population of 9 billion in the middle of the century followed by a slow decline, is all wrong according to Steve.  How can we ever support 1/3 more people?  Maybe it will have something to do with moving already existing cropland up to industrialized yield norms?  Heck all those scientists working on GM foods might even have a breakthrough or two.</p>
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		<title>By: g</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103663</link>
		<dc:creator>g</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:31:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103663</guid>
		<description>Is there any controversy (among reasonably intelligent and well informed people) about any of the following points?

1. Biologically, humans and chimpanzees are very, very similar; much more similar than, say, cats and dogs.

2. Most members of the species H. sapiens are capable, with suitable education, of attaining some understanding of such things as science, commerce, religion, poetry, music, and the like. No members of any other species on the planet (including chimpanzees) show any sign of similar capability.

3. Some members (or groups of members) of the species H. sapiens are capable of such feats in these fields as have transformed the lives of millions of other members of that species; for instance, by inventing the telephone or composing Schubert&#039;s songs or writing &quot;Das Kapital&quot; and the Communist Manifesto. (The consequences of such feats may be good or bad or neither.) No members of any other species on the planet (including chimpanzees) show any sign of similar capability.

From these, I conclude that (a) from some viewpoints there is very little difference between humans and some other species such as chimps, and (b) from some other viewpoints that I know of no reason to discount out of hand, there is a very big difference. The difference shows itself in &quot;cultural&quot; phenomena, but it isn&#039;t only a difference *in* culture; it&#039;s a difference in cultural *capabilities*. And this difference has consequences that are large even from an &quot;external&quot; viewpoint, in so far as we can attain one, on account of the way that cultural phenomena can have very widespread effects. There probably isn&#039;t anything an individual chimpanzee, or a small group of chimpanzees, could do that would have consequences comparable with those of what Einstein, or Hitler, or the Buddha, did.

So, once again: The question &quot;so is it a big difference or not?&quot; is a pseudo-question with no useful answer; it depends on how you measure it. There are non-bogus versions of the question to which the answer is &quot;no&quot;, and non-bogus versions whose answer is &quot;yes&quot;. I don&#039;t understand how any of this is at all controversial to anyone who hasn&#039;t already made up their mind one way or another on ideological grounds.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Is there any controversy (among reasonably intelligent and well informed people) about any of the following points?</p>

	<p>1. Biologically, humans and chimpanzees are very, very similar; much more similar than, say, cats and dogs.</p>

	<p>2. Most members of the species H. sapiens are capable, with suitable education, of attaining some understanding of such things as science, commerce, religion, poetry, music, and the like. No members of any other species on the planet (including chimpanzees) show any sign of similar capability.</p>

	<p>3. Some members (or groups of members) of the species H. sapiens are capable of such feats in these fields as have transformed the lives of millions of other members of that species; for instance, by inventing the telephone or composing Schubert&#8217;s songs or writing &#8220;Das Kapital&#8221; and the Communist Manifesto. (The consequences of such feats may be good or bad or neither.) No members of any other species on the planet (including chimpanzees) show any sign of similar capability.</p>

	<p>From these, I conclude that (a) from some viewpoints there is very little difference between humans and some other species such as chimps, and (b) from some other viewpoints that I know of no reason to discount out of hand, there is a very big difference. The difference shows itself in &#8220;cultural&#8221; phenomena, but it isn&#8217;t only a difference <strong>in</strong> culture; it&#8217;s a difference in cultural <strong>capabilities</strong>. And this difference has consequences that are large even from an &#8220;external&#8221; viewpoint, in so far as we can attain one, on account of the way that cultural phenomena can have very widespread effects. There probably isn&#8217;t anything an individual chimpanzee, or a small group of chimpanzees, could do that would have consequences comparable with those of what Einstein, or Hitler, or the Buddha, did.</p>

	<p>So, once again: The question &#8220;so is it a big difference or not?&#8221; is a pseudo-question with no useful answer; it depends on how you measure it. There are non-bogus versions of the question to which the answer is &#8220;no&#8221;, and non-bogus versions whose answer is &#8220;yes&#8221;. I don&#8217;t understand how any of this is at all controversial to anyone who hasn&#8217;t already made up their mind one way or another on ideological grounds.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve LaBonne</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103662</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve LaBonne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103662</guid>
		<description>James, since you have no idea what you&#039;re talking about, you have missed, as Jaques Chirac would say, une bonne opportunite de vous taire. If you&#039;d actually like to learn something about molecular phylogeny, I&#039;d be happy to give you a reference or two to get you started- just ask.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James, since you have no idea what you&#8217;re talking about, you have missed, as Jaques Chirac would say, une bonne opportunite de vous taire. If you&#8217;d actually like to learn something about molecular phylogeny, I&#8217;d be happy to give you a reference or two to get you started- just ask.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/comment-page-3/#comment-103660</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Sep 2005 15:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/09/26/van-inwagens-laugh-test/#comment-103660</guid>
		<description>There is a Russian science joke that is applicable. 

Place a cockroach on a table and hit the table.  The cockroach runs off.
Remove two legs from the cockroach and hit the table.  The cockroach again runs off.
Remove two more legs and hit the table.  The cockroach attempts to run off.
Remove the last two legs and hit the table.  The cockroach does not run off.
Therefore cockroaches hear using their legs.

DNA comparisons of species may demonstrate a common ancestor.  It may simply demonstrate that DNA strands for bipedal locomotion and back hair are the same regardless of species.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is a Russian science joke that is applicable.</p>

	<p>Place a cockroach on a table and hit the table.  The cockroach runs off.<br />
Remove two legs from the cockroach and hit the table.  The cockroach again runs off.<br />
Remove two more legs and hit the table.  The cockroach attempts to run off.<br />
Remove the last two legs and hit the table.  The cockroach does not run off.<br />
Therefore cockroaches hear using their legs.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">DNA</span> comparisons of species may demonstrate a common ancestor.  It may simply demonstrate that <span class="caps">DNA</span> strands for bipedal locomotion and back hair are the same regardless of species.</p>
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