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	<title>Comments on: Really?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Wayne Urban Wasserman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-106166</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayne Urban Wasserman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Oct 2005 04:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-106166</guid>
		<description>It might be fun, or even useful, to see what Einstein and Infeld say about related matters in their brilliant, equation-free &#8220;The Evolution of Physics:  From Early Concepts to Relativity and Quanta&#8221;: 

	Classical physics introduced two substances:  matter and energy&#8230;in classical physics we had two conservation laws: one for matter, the other for energy.  We have already asked whether modern physics still holds this view of two substabnces and the conservation laws.  The answer is:  &#8220;No.&#8221; According to the theory of relativity, there is no essential distinction between mass and energy&#8230;Instead of two conservation laws we have only one, that of mass-energy&#8230;How is it that this fact of energy having mass and mass representing energy remained for so long obscured?...The reason for this lack of immediate evidence is the very small rate of exchange between matter and energy&#8230;An example will make this clear.  The quantity of heat able to convert thirty thousand tons of water into steam would weight about one gram! (Simon and Schuster, 1966; pp. 197-198)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It might be fun, or even useful, to see what Einstein and Infeld say about related matters in their brilliant, equation-free &#8220;The Evolution of Physics:  From Early Concepts to Relativity and Quanta&#8221;:</p>

	<p>Classical physics introduced two substances:  matter and energy&#8230;in classical physics we had two conservation laws: one for matter, the other for energy.  We have already asked whether modern physics still holds this view of two substabnces and the conservation laws.  The answer is:  &#8220;No.&#8221; According to the theory of relativity, there is no essential distinction between mass and energy&#8230;Instead of two conservation laws we have only one, that of mass-energy&#8230;How is it that this fact of energy having mass and mass representing energy remained for so long obscured?&#8230;The reason for this lack of immediate evidence is the very small rate of exchange between matter and energy&#8230;An example will make this clear.  The quantity of heat able to convert thirty thousand tons of water into steam would weight about one gram! (Simon and Schuster, 1966; pp. 197-198)</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-106093</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-106093</guid>
		<description>One of the standard derivations (going back to Einstein, I think) of E = mc*2 is the flashlight in a box example.  You&#039;ve got a box floating in space with a flashlight buried in the wall on one side of the box.  Turn the flashlight on.  It&#039;s facing inside, so the light leaves the wall, heading to the other side.  The momentum of the light is E/c.  The recoil momentum of the box is E/c.  The box is moving slowly enough so that one can use the classical momentum for it, so it travels at E/Mc, where capital M is the mass of the box.  The light reaches the other side in a time L/c (the box is moving so slowly we can neglect its speed in calculating this).  The light is absorbed on the other side and the box stops. 

The overall center of mass of the system doesn&#039;t change, because all this happened internally, yet the box shifted ever so slightly to the left.  In fact it shifted (E/Mc) times (L/c) or EL /M c*2).
To counter this leftward motion of the box, the energy of the light was moved a distance L, so if the overall center of mass didn&#039;t change, we&#039;d have 

mass of box times distance it moved =  mass associated with E times the distance it moved or


   M times EL/(M c*2) = m L,  where m is the mass associated with the energy of the light that moved.  Solve for m and you get m = E/c*2.

The energy that went into making the light beam was originally stored as chemical energy in the battery and now it is thermal energy added to the opposite side of the box, but in-between it was the energy of the photons.  But anyway, when in its chemical or thermal energy form, it added to the mass of the box by the amount E/c*2. That mass was transferred to the other side of the box.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One of the standard derivations (going back to Einstein, I think) of E = mc*2 is the flashlight in a box example.  You&#8217;ve got a box floating in space with a flashlight buried in the wall on one side of the box.  Turn the flashlight on.  It&#8217;s facing inside, so the light leaves the wall, heading to the other side.  The momentum of the light is E/c.  The recoil momentum of the box is E/c.  The box is moving slowly enough so that one can use the classical momentum for it, so it travels at E/Mc, where capital M is the mass of the box.  The light reaches the other side in a time L/c (the box is moving so slowly we can neglect its speed in calculating this).  The light is absorbed on the other side and the box stops.</p>

	<p>The overall center of mass of the system doesn&#8217;t change, because all this happened internally, yet the box shifted ever so slightly to the left.  In fact it shifted (E/Mc) times (L/c) or <span class="caps">EL </span>/M c*2).<br />
To counter this leftward motion of the box, the energy of the light was moved a distance L, so if the overall center of mass didn&#8217;t change, we&#8217;d have</p>

	<p>mass of box times distance it moved =  mass associated with E times the distance it moved or</p>


	<p>M times EL/(M c*2) = m L,  where m is the mass associated with the energy of the light that moved.  Solve for m and you get m = E/c*2.</p>

	<p>The energy that went into making the light beam was originally stored as chemical energy in the battery and now it is thermal energy added to the opposite side of the box, but in-between it was the energy of the photons.  But anyway, when in its chemical or thermal energy form, it added to the mass of the box by the amount E/c*2. That mass was transferred to the other side of the box.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-106091</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-106091</guid>
		<description>phil, there are recent papers (PRL)that indicate the presence of a non-zero lower limit on the mass of a photon.  A simple declaration of &#039;it is not so&#039; is open to argument but such an argument is beyond the scope of my knowledge or, for that matter, of this thread.  I&#039;m simply referring to the frequency shift of a photon as demonstrated by Mossbauer.  How to explain such a shift, whether in terms of gravitational mass or a &quot;coupling constant&quot; or curvature of space is really a semantic one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>phil, there are recent papers (PRL)that indicate the presence of a non-zero lower limit on the mass of a photon.  A simple declaration of &#8216;it is not so&#8217; is open to argument but such an argument is beyond the scope of my knowledge or, for that matter, of this thread.  I&#8217;m simply referring to the frequency shift of a photon as demonstrated by Mossbauer.  How to explain such a shift, whether in terms of gravitational mass or a &#8220;coupling constant&#8221; or curvature of space is really a semantic one.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-106088</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-106088</guid>
		<description>Suppose you&#039;re flying away from earth on a spaceship and looking at a clock left on earth. As you&#039;re moving away and it takes time for the light reflected off the clock on earth to reach your eye, it&#039;ll take you a while to observe the minute hand on the clock jumping from 6:24 to 6:25, it&#039;ll take longer to observe it jumping from 6:25 to 6:26, yet longer to see it jumping from 6:26 to 6:27 and so on. Meanwhile the clock in your spaceship is ticking as usual. This is how I imagine it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Suppose you&#8217;re flying away from earth on a spaceship and looking at a clock left on earth. As you&#8217;re moving away and it takes time for the light reflected off the clock on earth to reach your eye, it&#8217;ll take you a while to observe the minute hand on the clock jumping from 6:24 to 6:25, it&#8217;ll take longer to observe it jumping from 6:25 to 6:26, yet longer to see it jumping from 6:26 to 6:27 and so on. Meanwhile the clock in your spaceship is ticking as usual. This is how I imagine it.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-106048</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 16:03:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-106048</guid>
		<description>Abb1, How weird, I&#039;m the exact opposite.  Time to me is a very odd concept: how can it run slow?  Would it be possible for time to run in reverse?  I find slowing clocks and so on very, very counter intuitive.  Mass less so, but there we go!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, How weird, I&#8217;m the exact opposite.  Time to me is a very odd concept: how can it run slow?  Would it be possible for time to run in reverse?  I find slowing clocks and so on very, very counter intuitive.  Mass less so, but there we go!</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105957</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 15:11:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105957</guid>
		<description>Matt, I have no problem with time; I can explain it to myself as something roughly analogous to doppler effect, which is perfectly obvious. But this mass thing is really really counter-intuitive.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt, I have no problem with time; I can explain it to myself as something roughly analogous to doppler effect, which is perfectly obvious. But this mass thing is really really counter-intuitive.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105945</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105945</guid>
		<description>Abb1, I&#039;m not sure if you&#039;re being humourous or not... But why is mass being variable any weirder than time or length contraction.  We know for a fact that atomic clocks up in orbit *do* run slower than an atomic clock on Earth.  That seems just as odd to me, and it&#039;s beyond doubt.  Intuition and common sense are remarkably bad guides when it comes to science...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;re being humourous or not&#8230; But why is mass being variable any weirder than time or length contraction.  We know for a fact that atomic clocks up in orbit <strong>do</strong> run slower than an atomic clock on Earth.  That seems just as odd to me, and it&#8217;s beyond doubt.  Intuition and common sense are remarkably bad guides when it comes to science&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105943</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:16:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105943</guid>
		<description>eudoxis, there is no such thing as gravitational mass. There is just mass, and photons don&#039;t have any.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>eudoxis, there is no such thing as gravitational mass. There is just mass, and photons don&#8217;t have any.</p>
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		<title>By: eudoxis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105941</link>
		<dc:creator>eudoxis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 14:06:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105941</guid>
		<description>But, photons have a &lt;i&gt;gravitational&lt;/i&gt; mass (energy/c^2)...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But, photons have a <i>gravitational</i> mass (energy/c^2)&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105884</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105884</guid>
		<description>I refuse to believe this, dammit. And I refuse to believe that a wind-up toy is heavier wound-up than unwound. This is a hoax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I refuse to believe this, dammit. And I refuse to believe that a wind-up toy is heavier wound-up than unwound. This is a hoax.</p>
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		<title>By: phil</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105814</link>
		<dc:creator>phil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:43:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105814</guid>
		<description>abb1, there is no conservation of mass. Energy and momentum are conserved. So when these zero-mass-but-nonzero-energy-and-nonzero-momentum-moving-at-speed-of-light particles (photons) are released, the mass deacreases.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, there is no conservation of mass. Energy and momentum are conserved. So when these zero-mass-but-nonzero-energy-and-nonzero-momentum-moving-at-speed-of-light particles (photons) are released, the mass deacreases.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105813</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 11:36:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105813</guid>
		<description>Abb1, Okay, yes, but mass *is* lost: others have said this, and I&#039;m certain it&#039;s true: when the electrons move to lower energy orbits, they also loose a small amount of mass.  Read again what Ali Soleimani says in #4.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, Okay, yes, but mass <strong>is</strong> lost: others have said this, and I&#8217;m certain it&#8217;s true: when the electrons move to lower energy orbits, they also loose a small amount of mass.  Read again what Ali Soleimani says in #4.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105810</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105810</guid>
		<description>I know that an electron has mass. 

I think the explanation goes something like this: chemical reaction 2H2 + O2 = 2H2O can be interpreted as electrons jumping from higher energy levels to lower ones to form a stable molecule of water. 

Energy that these electrons lose is released as a bunch of zero-mass-moving-at-a-speed-of-light particles (photons?) with no change in mass for the whole thing.

IOW, in a very-very rough analogy: electrons in H2 and O2 are moving fast; they then slow themselves down by shooting out zero-mass particles which (slowing down that is) allows them to form an H2O molecule. In H2O electrons are moving slow; the total number of electrons, neutrons and protons is the same, the total mass is the same. 

That&#039;s my story anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I know that an electron has mass.</p>

	<p>I think the explanation goes something like this: chemical reaction 2H2 + <span class="caps">O2 </span>= 2H2O can be interpreted as electrons jumping from higher energy levels to lower ones to form a stable molecule of water.</p>

	<p>Energy that these electrons lose is released as a bunch of zero-mass-moving-at-a-speed-of-light particles (photons?) with no change in mass for the whole thing.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">IOW</span>, in a very-very rough analogy: electrons in H2 and O2 are moving fast; they then slow themselves down by shooting out zero-mass particles which (slowing down that is) allows them to form an <span class="caps">H2O</span> molecule. In <span class="caps">H2O</span> electrons are moving slow; the total number of electrons, neutrons and protons is the same, the total mass is the same.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s my story anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105806</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105806</guid>
		<description>Abb1, Okay, I&#039;ve asked around, and I&#039;m assured from physicists that, if you carry a ball up, say, the Empire State Building, then you are, in a tiny way, adding to its mass.  This does seem rather counter-intuitive to me, but apparently it&#039;s correct.  I&#039;m tempted not to trust my intuition, given how many other strange things happen in G.R. (I mean, time seems for absolute than mass, and yet we know that&#039;s a fiction).

Of course, you yourself will weight a bit less after walking up the Empire State building, as you&#039;ll be using energy.  My friend was undecided on the point of a spaceship leaving orbit around the sun and travelling into clear space: he thought that maybe the loss of mass from the ship&#039;s engines would cancel out any possible gain in mass.  The problem is that it&#039;s impossible to think of an isolated system in G.R. as you cannot remove everything, or you remove the gravity as well!

One can explain the spring more easily: ultimately, it&#039;s a change in the atomic behaviour of the lattice of atoms which makes up the metal which makes the spring: if molecules can have less mass than their constituate atoms, then it doesn&#039;t seem too surprising that stressing a spring can change its mass a small amount.

I think your collegue is wrong: mass most certainly *is* converted into energy in a chemical reaction.  A water molecule literally has (a tiny tiny amount) less mass than 2 hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.  If you read the Wikipedia on S.R. you&#039;ll find that there is a difference between mass and momentum: a photon is massless but it has momentum; I have mass, and if I speed up, I gain momentum!  An &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron#Properties_and_behavior_of_electrons&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;electron has mass&lt;/a&gt; though, so I&#039;m not quite sure what you collegue meant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Abb1, Okay, I&#8217;ve asked around, and I&#8217;m assured from physicists that, if you carry a ball up, say, the Empire State Building, then you are, in a tiny way, adding to its mass.  This does seem rather counter-intuitive to me, but apparently it&#8217;s correct.  I&#8217;m tempted not to trust my intuition, given how many other strange things happen in G.R. (I mean, time seems for absolute than mass, and yet we know that&#8217;s a fiction).</p>

	<p>Of course, you yourself will weight a bit less after walking up the Empire State building, as you&#8217;ll be using energy.  My friend was undecided on the point of a spaceship leaving orbit around the sun and travelling into clear space: he thought that maybe the loss of mass from the ship&#8217;s engines would cancel out any possible gain in mass.  The problem is that it&#8217;s impossible to think of an isolated system in G.R. as you cannot remove everything, or you remove the gravity as well!</p>

	<p>One can explain the spring more easily: ultimately, it&#8217;s a change in the atomic behaviour of the lattice of atoms which makes up the metal which makes the spring: if molecules can have less mass than their constituate atoms, then it doesn&#8217;t seem too surprising that stressing a spring can change its mass a small amount.</p>

	<p>I think your collegue is wrong: mass most certainly <strong>is</strong> converted into energy in a chemical reaction.  A water molecule literally has (a tiny tiny amount) less mass than 2 hydrogen atoms and an oxygen atom.  If you read the Wikipedia on S.R. you&#8217;ll find that there is a difference between mass and momentum: a photon is massless but it has momentum; I have mass, and if I speed up, I gain momentum!  An <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron#Properties_and_behavior_of_electrons" rel="nofollow">electron has mass</a> though, so I&#8217;m not quite sure what you collegue meant.</p>
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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/comment-page-2/#comment-105801</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Oct 2005 08:50:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/01/really/#comment-105801</guid>
		<description>abb1, nope, the springs you ask about have indeed gained a bit of &quot;mass&quot; from the energy stored by stretching the springs. It&#039;s a tiny, tiny amount, but it&#039;s there. The same for chemical bonding. If we were still dealing in a Newtonian universe but relaxed the assumption of constant mass, then the energy added by setting up the situation itself represents an increase in inertail response, hence an increase in mass. Think about where the mass comes from in pair production: energy in a photon, under an interaction that conserves momentum, can become the mass and kinetic energy of two electron-sized particles. Energy and mass are the same thing, but we see them as different things because we are looking at them differently.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1, nope, the springs you ask about have indeed gained a bit of &#8220;mass&#8221; from the energy stored by stretching the springs. It&#8217;s a tiny, tiny amount, but it&#8217;s there. The same for chemical bonding. If we were still dealing in a Newtonian universe but relaxed the assumption of constant mass, then the energy added by setting up the situation itself represents an increase in inertail response, hence an increase in mass. Think about where the mass comes from in pair production: energy in a photon, under an interaction that conserves momentum, can become the mass and kinetic energy of two electron-sized particles. Energy and mass are the same thing, but we see them as different things because we are looking at them differently.</p>
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