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	<title>Comments on: Dishonorable Citations</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Dean Blobaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109795</link>
		<dc:creator>Dean Blobaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 17:04:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109795</guid>
		<description>Jed Harris &lt;a href=&quot;http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/#comment-108990&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;said&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;I’m sure links from one blog entry to another don’t increase a site’s page rank.&quot;

There is no such thing as &quot;a site&#039;s page rank.&quot; Only webpages have page rank, not websites. There is no equivalent to the entity of a journal in how page rank is calculated.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jed Harris <a href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/#comment-108990" rel="nofollow">said</a>: &#8220;I&#8217;m sure links from one blog entry to another don&#8217;t increase a site&#8217;s page rank.&#8221;</p>

	<p>There is no such thing as &#8220;a site&#8217;s page rank.&#8221; Only webpages have page rank, not websites. There is no equivalent to the entity of a journal in how page rank is calculated.</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109440</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:55:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109440</guid>
		<description>Here is a roundtable discussion of the issue from the Chronicle:
http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2005/10/impact/

here are some interesting bits:

- Sociologists are not &quot;mathy&quot; people:

by Anurag A. Agrawal: 

&quot;Perhaps more mathy people, maybe sociologists, should take a look at this issue.&quot;

&quot;I don&#039;t advocate getting rid of the impact factor... I simply think we should keep an open mind and at least use several indices... (including our own personal judgment of the prestige of the publication venue). There is no way that this process is going to be made simpler, with a silver bullet, and there is also no possibility to make it completely objective. Our only hope is to not be locked into a self-imposed monopoly where impact factor is god. In addition, we should try to close the door on abuses ... I think the clear path here is to embarrass the editors or publishers that make compromising requests!&quot;

&quot; It may be worth the effort of some governmental agencies, especially those that fund scientific research, to investigate impact factors and journal practices.&quot;

&quot;Anurag A. Agrawal, an assistant professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at Cornell University, has served on the editorial boards of five journals. He recently published a letter in _Trends in Ecology and Evolution_ decrying some common editorial practices designed to raise citations and journal-impact factors.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Here is a roundtable discussion of the issue from the Chronicle:<br />
<a href="http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2005/10/impact/" rel="nofollow">http://chronicle.com/colloquy/2005/10/impact/</a></p>

	<p>here are some interesting bits:</p>
 &#8211; Sociologists are not &#8220;mathy&#8221; people:

	<p>by Anurag A. Agrawal:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Perhaps more mathy people, maybe sociologists, should take a look at this issue.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;I don&#8217;t advocate getting rid of the impact factor&#8230; I simply think we should keep an open mind and at least use several indices&#8230; (including our own personal judgment of the prestige of the publication venue). There is no way that this process is going to be made simpler, with a silver bullet, and there is also no possibility to make it completely objective. Our only hope is to not be locked into a self-imposed monopoly where impact factor is god. In addition, we should try to close the door on abuses &#8230; I think the clear path here is to embarrass the editors or publishers that make compromising requests!&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8221; It may be worth the effort of some governmental agencies, especially those that fund scientific research, to investigate impact factors and journal practices.&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;Anurag A. Agrawal, an assistant professor of ecology and evolutionary biology at Cornell University, has served on the editorial boards of five journals. He recently published a letter in <em>Trends in Ecology and Evolution</em> decrying some common editorial practices designed to raise citations and journal-impact factors.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109184</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109184</guid>
		<description>Within the social sciences, I think there is a specific problem with the ISI impact ratings that promotes gaming; the time periods involved. ISI impact ratings are calculated on cites within 2 years of publication. Now given the lead times involved, you do some research, work it up into a conference paper. Revise it, submit it, make revisions - we are probably talking 2 years from conception to acceptance on average, plus another year to 18 months wait before publication.

In these circumstances, most articles won&#039;t be that heavy on references to recently published articles, so gaming by editors can really push up ratings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Within the social sciences, I think there is a specific problem with the <span class="caps">ISI</span> impact ratings that promotes gaming; the time periods involved. <span class="caps">ISI</span> impact ratings are calculated on cites within 2 years of publication. Now given the lead times involved, you do some research, work it up into a conference paper. Revise it, submit it, make revisions &#8211; we are probably talking 2 years from conception to acceptance on average, plus another year to 18 months wait before publication.</p>

	<p>In these circumstances, most articles won&#8217;t be that heavy on references to recently published articles, so gaming by editors can really push up ratings.</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109182</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 08:42:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109182</guid>
		<description>Commenterlein - in addition to Vivian&#039;s point about prestigious journals expecting to get a lot of self-citations, I hear (at least in philosophy) it&#039;s also traditional to publish a response to a particular article to the same journal.  This sort of journal self-citation is relevant because a journal that gets a lot of it is publishing the articles people want to directly reply to, while the journals that get only ordinary self-citation and external citation are publishing papers that make some nice points but don&#039;t inspire direct responses.

Now, of course, this could be a good thing or a bad thing.  One thing that draws in direct responses is when an article just seems plain wrong.  But another is when it really does say something important that inspires new research, rather than just making some points that are tangentially relevant elsewhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Commenterlein &#8211; in addition to Vivian&#8217;s point about prestigious journals expecting to get a lot of self-citations, I hear (at least in philosophy) it&#8217;s also traditional to publish a response to a particular article to the same journal.  This sort of journal self-citation is relevant because a journal that gets a lot of it is publishing the articles people want to directly reply to, while the journals that get only ordinary self-citation and external citation are publishing papers that make some nice points but don&#8217;t inspire direct responses.</p>

	<p>Now, of course, this could be a good thing or a bad thing.  One thing that draws in direct responses is when an article just seems plain wrong.  But another is when it really does say something important that inspires new research, rather than just making some points that are tangentially relevant elsewhere.</p>
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		<title>By: Demosthenes</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109173</link>
		<dc:creator>Demosthenes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 05:28:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109173</guid>
		<description>Wait.. since when was Marx not part of social science?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Wait.. since when was Marx not part of social science?</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Eric Kaufman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109169</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Eric Kaufman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109169</guid>
		<description>For some reason I wouldn&#039;t feel nearly so guilty about hawking my blog on this thread as I do on othes.  Everyone should read it.  Really, they should.  It&#039;s &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; important.  Know why?  &lt;i&gt;Because I say so&lt;/i&gt;.  All kidding aside, the consequences of this practice in the hard sciences are, potentially, far more dangerous than another article about Jane Austen or Jack London falling into the void of some specialist publication in the humanities.  Insert your own nightmare scenario of mute inglorious cures for cancers or the common cold here...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>For some reason I wouldn&#8217;t feel nearly so guilty about hawking my blog on this thread as I do on othes.  Everyone should read it.  Really, they should.  It&#8217;s <i>really</i> important.  Know why?  <i>Because I say so</i>.  All kidding aside, the consequences of this practice in the hard sciences are, potentially, far more dangerous than another article about Jane Austen or Jack London falling into the void of some specialist publication in the humanities.  Insert your own nightmare scenario of mute inglorious cures for cancers or the common cold here&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Taylor Gilbert</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109168</link>
		<dc:creator>Taylor Gilbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 02:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109168</guid>
		<description>the more insideous aspect to all of this is that when BAD research gets through the filters, and it becomes popular, then it is tough to eradicate it from peoples heads.  How about freudian literary analysis or worse yet marx.  These guys have not been taught in their own fields for decades and their ideas are all over the social sciences.  

and what is far more insideous is when the research leads to a reform of public education teaching methods.  If you have not looked in a public high school textbook on history in a while, you might be suprised.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>the more insideous aspect to all of this is that when <span class="caps">BAD</span> research gets through the filters, and it becomes popular, then it is tough to eradicate it from peoples heads.  How about freudian literary analysis or worse yet marx.  These guys have not been taught in their own fields for decades and their ideas are all over the social sciences.</p>

	<p>and what is far more insideous is when the research leads to a reform of public education teaching methods.  If you have not looked in a public high school textbook on history in a while, you might be suprised.</p>
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		<title>By: vivian</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109166</link>
		<dc:creator>vivian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:09:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109166</guid>
		<description>But commenterlein, one expects that a &#039;truly prestigious&#039; journal - one that people know has a lot of articles by people one finds consistently interesting, on extremely important topics (to the subfield) - should cite other articles in the journal. I&#039;d be surprised if articles in JAMA, Nature, Cell, Ethics, JPP, PAPA, etc. didn&#039;t cite work from those journals -they carry too much good work (or work by giants) not to cite them. 

Academics I know tend to have a small set of journals they respect a lot, based on how many articles in each issue they&#039;d consider relevant and good work.  Among the larger set of journals, they browse, and seek the issues out for specific articles, or authors. These &#039;idio-rankings&#039; aren&#039;t standardized, but they are what drive their reading and recommending. I can&#039;t see most of these profs changing their habits based on ISI algorithms, even if ISI had good ones. In unfamiliar subfields they&#039;d just ask a colleague, or roll dice or something. Anything rather than defer to some institution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But commenterlein, one expects that a &#8216;truly prestigious&#8217; journal &#8211; one that people know has a lot of articles by people one finds consistently interesting, on extremely important topics (to the subfield) &#8211; should cite other articles in the journal. I&#8217;d be surprised if articles in <span class="caps">JAMA</span>, Nature, Cell, Ethics, <span class="caps">JPP</span>, PAPA, etc. didn&#8217;t cite work from those journals -they carry too much good work (or work by giants) not to cite them.</p>

	<p>Academics I know tend to have a small set of journals they respect a lot, based on how many articles in each issue they&#8217;d consider relevant and good work.  Among the larger set of journals, they browse, and seek the issues out for specific articles, or authors. These &#8216;idio-rankings&#8217; aren&#8217;t standardized, but they are what drive their reading and recommending. I can&#8217;t see most of these profs changing their habits based on <span class="caps">ISI</span> algorithms, even if <span class="caps">ISI</span> had good ones. In unfamiliar subfields they&#8217;d just ask a colleague, or roll dice or something. Anything rather than defer to some institution.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike Otsuka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109165</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike Otsuka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 00:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109165</guid>
		<description>While wasting time surfing Web of Science, I recently discovered that, by some enormous margin, the most cited article of G. A. Cohen&#039;s is &quot;On the Currency of Egalitarian Justice.&quot; In thinking about why that particular piece would have been cited &lt;i&gt;so many&lt;/i&gt; more times than other influential articles of his, it occurred to me that this article, unlike most of his others, hasn&#039;t yet been reprinted in any of his books. Once an article is reprinted, it&#039;s as likely to be cited via the book in which it&#039;s reprinted rather than the original article in which it was published.

So perhaps in the future journals will try to require that authors of articles not reprint them in their collected works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>While wasting time surfing Web of Science, I recently discovered that, by some enormous margin, the most cited article of G. A. Cohen&#8217;s is &#8220;On the Currency of Egalitarian Justice.&#8221; In thinking about why that particular piece would have been cited <i>so many</i> more times than other influential articles of his, it occurred to me that this article, unlike most of his others, hasn&#8217;t yet been reprinted in any of his books. Once an article is reprinted, it&#8217;s as likely to be cited via the book in which it&#8217;s reprinted rather than the original article in which it was published.</p>

	<p>So perhaps in the future journals will try to require that authors of articles not reprint them in their collected works.</p>
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		<title>By: Commenterlein</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109160</link>
		<dc:creator>Commenterlein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109160</guid>
		<description>Citation counts are probably still a better measure of the importance and impact of an article than most other measures one might think of. The quotations above make it sound as if editors considering the citations a paper is likely to garner was an a priori bad thing - I don&#039;t believe it is. Preferring articles which are likely to be read by a lot of people and influence a lot of other&#039;s work to articles which may be brilliant but nobody is interested in seems to be perfectly reasonable. 

The games played by editors to drive up the citation counts and impact factors of their own journals are obviously detrimental to the scientific process and hence unacceptable. But this simply implies that impact factors should be calculated without including self-citations at the journal level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Citation counts are probably still a better measure of the importance and impact of an article than most other measures one might think of. The quotations above make it sound as if editors considering the citations a paper is likely to garner was an a priori bad thing &#8211; I don&#8217;t believe it is. Preferring articles which are likely to be read by a lot of people and influence a lot of other&#8217;s work to articles which may be brilliant but nobody is interested in seems to be perfectly reasonable.</p>

	<p>The games played by editors to drive up the citation counts and impact factors of their own journals are obviously detrimental to the scientific process and hence unacceptable. But this simply implies that impact factors should be calculated without including self-citations at the journal level.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109158</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:31:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109158</guid>
		<description>I knew it!  Groups of academics citing each others&#039; work!  Someone should put a stop to these illegal citation rings, making a mockery of peer review!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I knew it!  Groups of academics citing each others&#8217; work!  Someone should put a stop to these illegal citation rings, making a mockery of peer review!</p>
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		<title>By: Keith</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109146</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 19:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109146</guid>
		<description>I alweays found it amusing when I saw how often my professors in Grad School cited themselves. But then, shameless self promotion in my field (Library Science) has always been a halmark.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I alweays found it amusing when I saw how often my professors in Grad School cited themselves. But then, shameless self promotion in my field (Library Science) has always been a halmark.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109016</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:19:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109016</guid>
		<description>But same must be true about citations: a brilliant article in some godforsaken area is unlikely to collect many.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But same must be true about citations: a brilliant article in some godforsaken area is unlikely to collect many.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-109004</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:13:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-109004</guid>
		<description>abb1: Sorta depends. A journal that reaches all 500 people in a speciality might be a &quot;better&quot; than one that reaches 5% of a larger speciality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1: Sorta depends. A journal that reaches all 500 people in a speciality might be a &#8220;better&#8221; than one that reaches 5% of a larger speciality.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/12/dishonorable-citations/comment-page-1/#comment-108995</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Oct 2005 17:04:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=3909#comment-108995</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not too familiar with academic journals (other than that I once worked for a software company facilitating peer reviews) but wouldn&#039;t volume of circulation/subscription be an obviously much better metric?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not too familiar with academic journals (other than that I once worked for a software company facilitating peer reviews) but wouldn&#8217;t volume of circulation/subscription be an obviously much better metric?</p>
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