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	<title>Comments on: A gene for religion?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Dick Mulliken</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109681</link>
		<dc:creator>Dick Mulliken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 14:10:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109681</guid>
		<description>There is an interesting, rare neurological disorder- too lazy to look it up now - whose pathognomonic signs are very small handwriting and religious fervor.  i think its loosely linked with some forms of epilepsy, which also has a long standing association with religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There is an interesting, rare neurological disorder- too lazy to look it up now &#8211; whose pathognomonic signs are very small handwriting and religious fervor.  i think its loosely linked with some forms of epilepsy, which also has a long standing association with religion.</p>
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		<title>By: beowulf888</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109624</link>
		<dc:creator>beowulf888</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Oct 2005 02:55:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109624</guid>
		<description>Andrew Brown: &quot;is there a gene for susceptibility for pseudo-science?&quot; 

Sometimes I think there is! But more likely it&#039;s in our wiring to (A) impose patterns where there are none, and (B) to come up with simplistic just-so stories to account for things that are actually the result of extremely complex systems. I think we are all wired to be greedy reductionists  ;-)

--Beo</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Andrew Brown: &#8220;is there a gene for susceptibility for pseudo-science?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Sometimes I think there is! But more likely it&#8217;s in our wiring to (A) impose patterns where there are none, and (B) to come up with simplistic just-so stories to account for things that are actually the result of extremely complex systems. I think we are all wired to be greedy reductionists  ;-)<br />
&#8212;Beo</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109523</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109523</guid>
		<description>“ &#039;In other words, spiritualism and ceremony are worlds apart.&#039; ”
No they are not.&quot;
Sorry David, theater is ritual. Ask an actor, or a critic. Ask Harold Pinter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220; &#8216;In other words, spiritualism and ceremony are worlds apart.&#8217; &#8221;<br />
No they are not.&#8221;<br />
Sorry David, theater is ritual. Ask an actor, or a critic. Ask Harold Pinter.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew  Brown</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109508</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew  Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109508</guid>
		<description>ah, but is there a gene for susceptibility for pseudo-science?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>ah, but is there a gene for susceptibility for pseudo-science?</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Danby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109507</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin Danby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 19:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109507</guid>
		<description>Brendan and Jimmy D have it right -- Winston&#039;s column is not only complete, cringe-inducing rubbish, but once you set questions up this way you&#039;re almost guaranteed an idiotic discussion because so many distinctions have been elided.  For one thing, generating a single definition of &quot;religion&quot; that is rigorously applicable across time and space is at best very hard, and arguably impossible.  And even a moment&#039;s historical reflection should show you that if religion is anything, it&#039;s social.  And, sorry, but anyone who uses the term &quot;religiosity&quot; like it has a broadly-applicable meaning is bullshitting.  This is one of the worst intellectual habits: taking an already vague term and adding a fancy suffix and nattering on like it&#039;s an obvious phenomenon.  In addition to being imprecise, &quot;religiosity&quot; is condescending.  

Re the larger question of why there&#039;s a market for this sort of pseudoscience, I refer people to Ben Goldacre&#039;s column, which the Guardian, to its credit, publishes: http://www.badscience.net/ While he&#039;s mainly going after quack medicine, the larger pattern of eagerness for simple, sciencey-sounding answers to complex questions is there.  People are looking for shortcuts because they don&#039;t want to think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brendan and Jimmy D have it right&#8212;Winston&#8217;s column is not only complete, cringe-inducing rubbish, but once you set questions up this way you&#8217;re almost guaranteed an idiotic discussion because so many distinctions have been elided.  For one thing, generating a single definition of &#8220;religion&#8221; that is rigorously applicable across time and space is at best very hard, and arguably impossible.  And even a moment&#8217;s historical reflection should show you that if religion is anything, it&#8217;s social.  And, sorry, but anyone who uses the term &#8220;religiosity&#8221; like it has a broadly-applicable meaning is bullshitting.  This is one of the worst intellectual habits: taking an already vague term and adding a fancy suffix and nattering on like it&#8217;s an obvious phenomenon.  In addition to being imprecise, &#8220;religiosity&#8221; is condescending.</p>

	<p>Re the larger question of why there&#8217;s a market for this sort of pseudoscience, I refer people to Ben Goldacre&#8217;s column, which the Guardian, to its credit, publishes: <a href="http://www.badscience.net/" rel="nofollow">http://www.badscience.net/</a> While he&#8217;s mainly going after quack medicine, the larger pattern of eagerness for simple, sciencey-sounding answers to complex questions is there.  People are looking for shortcuts because they don&#8217;t want to think.</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109499</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 18:10:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109499</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Irish and Italians – as opposed to other Europeans – have a tendency toward conformism?&lt;/i&gt;

Sigh, no.  I think genetic approach is pretty much a useless tool for looking at differences between societies.  And I would suggest that membership in formal religious groups is not a very good proxy for religiosity.  It strikes me that the cognitive tendencies underlying religious faith have a great deal of overlap with those underlying &#039;devout&#039; environmentalism and &#039;devout&#039; socialism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Irish and Italians &#8211; as opposed to other Europeans &#8211; have a tendency toward conformism?</i></p>

	<p>Sigh, no.  I think genetic approach is pretty much a useless tool for looking at differences between societies.  And I would suggest that membership in formal religious groups is not a very good proxy for religiosity.  It strikes me that the cognitive tendencies underlying religious faith have a great deal of overlap with those underlying &#8216;devout&#8217; environmentalism and &#8216;devout&#8217; socialism.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew  Brown</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109491</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew  Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109491</guid>
		<description>If you read the whole piece, you see that he has the grace to admit towards the end that there&#039;s no evidence, and all the preceding genetic speculation may all be balls. Winston himself is in an ambigiuous position, because he also considers himself an observant Jew (pers. comm in a radio studio). Observant, rather than believing, since the distinction matterrs among any Jew to the theological left of the Hassidim.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If you read the whole piece, you see that he has the grace to admit towards the end that there&#8217;s no evidence, and all the preceding genetic speculation may all be balls. Winston himself is in an ambigiuous position, because he also considers himself an observant Jew (pers. comm in a radio studio). Observant, rather than believing, since the distinction matterrs among any Jew to the theological left of the Hassidim.</p>
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		<title>By: Dix Hill</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109454</link>
		<dc:creator>Dix Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:02:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109454</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Well, no, genetic change is obviously not responsible, but does that then rule out the possibility that there are genes that tend to produce religiousity? Might such genes not be expressed in other ways? Perhaps in an intolerance for ambiguity? A tendency toward conformism? A preference for comprehensive orthodoxies? People with such tendencies tend to find ways to express them even in secular societies, no?&lt;/i&gt;

I agree with the above, though I would put it differently.  Maybe (I&#039;m no expert and am agnostic, ha ha, on the question) there&#039;s a gene that compels humans to seek meaning, to believe in an unseen power, an afterlife, etc.  Surely there&#039;s not a gene that compels us to go to Catholic mass.  Religious institutions don&#039;t exactly change quickly, but I bet they change faster than our DNA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Well, no, genetic change is obviously not responsible, but does that then rule out the possibility that there are genes that tend to produce religiousity? Might such genes not be expressed in other ways? Perhaps in an intolerance for ambiguity? A tendency toward conformism? A preference for comprehensive orthodoxies? People with such tendencies tend to find ways to express them even in secular societies, no?</i></p>

	<p>I agree with the above, though I would put it differently.  Maybe (I&#8217;m no expert and am agnostic, ha ha, on the question) there&#8217;s a gene that compels humans to seek meaning, to believe in an unseen power, an afterlife, etc.  Surely there&#8217;s not a gene that compels us to go to Catholic mass.  Religious institutions don&#8217;t exactly change quickly, but I bet they change faster than our <span class="caps">DNA</span>.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109450</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 17:02:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109450</guid>
		<description>Does Jimmy Doyle have a blog? And if not, why not?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Does Jimmy Doyle have a blog? And if not, why not?</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109373</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 16:08:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109373</guid>
		<description>Could I just point out that a very quick websearch indicates that Laura B. Koenig has co-written a number of papers with the aforementioned Professor Bouchard. Presumably, therefore, she holds to the unique standards of scholarship that characterise the Minnesota studies, that have led to their very special reputation in the world of psychology.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Could I just point out that a very quick websearch indicates that Laura B. Koenig has co-written a number of papers with the aforementioned Professor Bouchard. Presumably, therefore, she holds to the unique standards of scholarship that characterise the Minnesota studies, that have led to their very special reputation in the world of psychology.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109365</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109365</guid>
		<description>Irish and Italians - as opposed to other Europeans - have a tendency toward conformism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Irish and Italians &#8211; as opposed to other Europeans &#8211; have a tendency toward conformism?</p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109362</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 15:17:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109362</guid>
		<description>Just to play devil&#039;s advoacate:

http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/press/pressitem.asp?ref=288

&quot;The Irish and Italians, two name but two, don’t seem especially religious at the moment, but go back a generation or three …. I doubt very much that their genetic stock has changed that much.&quot;

Well, no, genetic change is obviously not responsible, but does that then rule out the possibility that there are genes that tend to produce religiousity?  Might such genes not be expressed in other ways?  Perhaps in an intolerance for ambiguity?  A tendency toward conformism?  A preference for comprehensive orthodoxies?  People with such tendencies tend to find ways to express them even in secular societies, no?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just to play devil&#8217;s advoacate:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/press/pressitem.asp?ref=288" rel="nofollow">http://www.blackwellpublishing.com/press/pressitem.asp?ref=288</a></p>

	<p>&#8220;The Irish and Italians, two name but two, don&#8217;t seem especially religious at the moment, but go back a generation or three &#8230;. I doubt very much that their genetic stock has changed that much.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, no, genetic change is obviously not responsible, but does that then rule out the possibility that there are genes that tend to produce religiousity?  Might such genes not be expressed in other ways?  Perhaps in an intolerance for ambiguity?  A tendency toward conformism?  A preference for comprehensive orthodoxies?  People with such tendencies tend to find ways to express them even in secular societies, no?</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109357</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109357</guid>
		<description>just really as a matter of history, that is how he came to media prominence; he was (and I think still is) Prof. of reproductive medicine at one or other of the big teaching hospitals, and thus got the Diana gyno gig.  He was thus the face of the British medical profession when it came to such matters, and as is the nature of things, became the go-to guy for all sorts of matters medical (he&#039;s also quite chummy with New Labour and serves on a couple of great-and-good panels, which I think is what got him his peerage).  I presume he is good at what he does, but this is the history of Lord Winston and it appears to me that there is not really all that much on his CV which would make one think that here is a man who absolutely has to be listened to on the subject of the genetic basis of religion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>just really as a matter of history, that is how he came to media prominence; he was (and I think still is) Prof. of reproductive medicine at one or other of the big teaching hospitals, and thus got the Diana gyno gig.  He was thus the face of the British medical profession when it came to such matters, and as is the nature of things, became the go-to guy for all sorts of matters medical (he&#8217;s also quite chummy with New Labour and serves on a couple of great-and-good panels, which I think is what got him his peerage).  I presume he is good at what he does, but this is the history of Lord Winston and it appears to me that there is not really all that much on his CV which would make one think that here is a man who absolutely has to be listened to on the subject of the genetic basis of religion.</p>
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		<title>By: Tietjens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109352</link>
		<dc:creator>Tietjens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:09:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109352</guid>
		<description>&quot;The Irish and Italians, to [sic] name but two, don’t seem especially religious at the moment, but go back a generation or three …. I doubt very much that their genetic stock has changed that much.&quot;

Their genes may not have changed, but perhaps the external situations that prompt them to fall back on their religious beliefs have, analogous to &quot;there are no atheists in the foxhole,&quot; if you will.

That does not entirely explain why we Americans are so obsessed with religion. Of course, it is inculcated into the upbringing of so many American children. Our Catholic and Lutheran schools are everywhere. Our own brand of Christian madrassas have proliferated in the last 20+ years, as nearly every town or city of 10-20,000 has at least one Christian Academy.

Could the fact we haven&#039;t had a war on our soil since the Civil War have an effect? After all, the senseless deaths of millions of innocent people that WWI and WWII brought about clearly shook the faith of Europeans, to say nothing of the fact that the necessity to rebuild one&#039;s life and economy required a good deal more action than contemplation.

I am no believer, but I was brought up to be one. I still get what others may call religious or spiritual feelings, whatever the brain chemicals involved may be. If I had to be Christian to listen to Verdi&#039;s Requiem, I might indeed convert.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The Irish and Italians, to [sic] name but two, don&#8217;t seem especially religious at the moment, but go back a generation or three &#8230;. I doubt very much that their genetic stock has changed that much.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Their genes may not have changed, but perhaps the external situations that prompt them to fall back on their religious beliefs have, analogous to &#8220;there are no atheists in the foxhole,&#8221; if you will.</p>

	<p>That does not entirely explain why we Americans are so obsessed with religion. Of course, it is inculcated into the upbringing of so many American children. Our Catholic and Lutheran schools are everywhere. Our own brand of Christian madrassas have proliferated in the last 20+ years, as nearly every town or city of 10-20,000 has at least one Christian Academy.</p>

	<p>Could the fact we haven&#8217;t had a war on our soil since the Civil War have an effect? After all, the senseless deaths of millions of innocent people that <span class="caps">WWI</span> and <span class="caps">WWII</span> brought about clearly shook the faith of Europeans, to say nothing of the fact that the necessity to rebuild one&#8217;s life and economy required a good deal more action than contemplation.</p>

	<p>I am no believer, but I was brought up to be one. I still get what others may call religious or spiritual feelings, whatever the brain chemicals involved may be. If I had to be Christian to listen to Verdi&#8217;s Requiem, I might indeed convert.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/comment-page-1/#comment-109350</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/13/a-gene-for-religion/#comment-109350</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re saying newspaper editors seek his perspective because they&#039;d like to have had his perspective? Did Lady Di also have a personal proctologist?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You&#8217;re saying newspaper editors seek his perspective because they&#8217;d like to have had his perspective? Did Lady Di also have a personal proctologist?</p>
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