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	<title>Comments on: Talking rubbish about DDT</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111291</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 22:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111291</guid>
		<description>True, but there&#039;re plenty of idiots who&#039;ll do it for free, &#039;cause they are &#039;conservative&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>True, but there&#8217;re plenty of idiots who&#8217;ll do it for free, &#8216;cause they are &#8216;conservative&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: bellatrys</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111289</link>
		<dc:creator>bellatrys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 21:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111289</guid>
		<description>Are you seriously asking this? I&#039;ve been posting on this for at least the last year. 

It&#039;s all part of &lt;a href=&quot;http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/ARX/downloads/neoconned.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Matrix&lt;/a&gt;. 

Why, some might wonder, do these so solicitous-conservatives never suggest that money might be put into effective anti-malarial vaccines or treatments? Ans: because they don&#039;t stand to make any money from it, themselves.

These guys who are DDT apologists are also Olin fellows. That is to say, they bear the same relation to the truth that John Lott/Mary Rosh (also an Olin-sponsored &quot;scholar&quot;) has to facts about guns. What has Olin to do with DDT? Why, the same as Halliburton to do with &quot;frivolous asbestos lawsuits.&quot; Olin also makes gunpowder, btw.

Just follow the money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Are you seriously asking this? I&#8217;ve been posting on this for at least the last year.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s all part of <a href="http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/ARX/downloads/neoconned.html" rel="nofollow">The Matrix</a>.</p>

	<p>Why, some might wonder, do these so solicitous-conservatives never suggest that money might be put into effective anti-malarial vaccines or treatments? Ans: because they don&#8217;t stand to make any money from it, themselves.</p>

	<p>These guys who are <span class="caps">DDT</span> apologists are also Olin fellows. That is to say, they bear the same relation to the truth that John Lott/Mary Rosh (also an Olin-sponsored &#8220;scholar&#8221;) has to facts about guns. What has Olin to do with <span class="caps">DDT</span>? Why, the same as Halliburton to do with &#8220;frivolous asbestos lawsuits.&#8221; Olin also makes gunpowder, btw.</p>

	<p>Just follow the money.</p>
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		<title>By: jill bryant</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111266</link>
		<dc:creator>jill bryant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 17:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111266</guid>
		<description>I have always heard that Tom Delay is behind the pro-DDT stance.  That as an ex-exterminator who lost money with the anti-DDT movement, he wanted to get back at the EPA and the environmentalists. I don&#039;t know the truth to these accusations - just that he is extremely anti EPA and any science that doesn&#039;t put money in his pockets.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have always heard that Tom Delay is behind the pro-DDT stance.  That as an ex-exterminator who lost money with the anti-DDT movement, he wanted to get back at the <span class="caps">EPA</span> and the environmentalists. I don&#8217;t know the truth to these accusations &#8211; just that he is extremely anti <span class="caps">EPA</span> and any science that doesn&#8217;t put money in his pockets.</p>
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		<title>By: Hume's Ghost</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111199</link>
		<dc:creator>Hume's Ghost</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 16:35:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111199</guid>
		<description>http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php

Anyone care to parse this? I don&#039;t have the heart.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.perc.org/publications/articles/Crichtonspeech.php</a></p>

	<p>Anyone care to parse this? I don&#8217;t have the heart.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111092</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 09:22:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111092</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean to put forward any wisdom. To say &quot;it&#039;s perfectly OK to do this&quot; is not the same as saying &quot;this is the only way&quot;. 

Clearly, idolatry of the &#039;free trade&#039; is wide-spread, but I&#039;m not aware of any powerful protectionist preconception occupying the public mind at this time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to put forward any wisdom. To say &#8220;it&#8217;s perfectly OK to do this&#8221; is not the same as saying &#8220;this is the only way&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Clearly, idolatry of the &#8216;free trade&#8217; is wide-spread, but I&#8217;m not aware of any powerful protectionist preconception occupying the public mind at this time.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111090</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 08:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111090</guid>
		<description>The point is that its challenging the common wisdom that you were just putting forward. Radek&#039;s argument is that when you start supporting and protecting your producers you are in fact harming your consumers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The point is that its challenging the common wisdom that you were just putting forward. Radek&#8217;s argument is that when you start supporting and protecting your producers you are in fact harming your consumers.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111086</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 07:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111086</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to support and protect their local consumers.

…by not subsidizing and protecting the damn producers.&lt;/i&gt;

It sure is. But that&#039;s not challenging any annoying dogma, any stupid common wisdom - so what&#039;s the point?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It&#8217;s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to support and protect their local consumers.</i></p>

	<p>&#8230;by not subsidizing and protecting the damn producers.</p>

	<p>It sure is. But that&#8217;s not challenging any annoying dogma, any stupid common wisdom &#8211; so what&#8217;s the point?</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-111076</link>
		<dc:creator>david</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 04:23:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-111076</guid>
		<description>Okay Daniel, now that you&#039;ve been baited, have at it. The subsidies kill people deserve a beating, and you&#039;re just the guy to do it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Okay Daniel, now that you&#8217;ve been baited, have at it. The subsidies kill people deserve a beating, and you&#8217;re just the guy to do it.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110938</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:10:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110938</guid>
		<description>&quot;This would have been a reasonable description of the Common Agricultural Policy up until about 1999. However, it’s no longer accurate at all&quot;

Sure, like I said I might be wrong and I was just trying to present/understand the side of the argument that I don&#039;t even support.

&quot;What they do is guarantee an income for farmers, usually based on the land they own&quot;

So is it just a cash handout? That&#039;s definetly a much better way of subsidizing somone than monkeying around with prices indirectly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;This would have been a reasonable description of the Common Agricultural Policy up until about 1999. However, it&#8217;s no longer accurate at all&#8221;</p>

	<p>Sure, like I said I might be wrong and I was just trying to present/understand the side of the argument that I don&#8217;t even support.</p>

	<p>&#8220;What they do is guarantee an income for farmers, usually based on the land they own&#8221;</p>

	<p>So is it just a cash handout? That&#8217;s definetly a much better way of subsidizing somone than monkeying around with prices indirectly.</p>
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		<title>By: radek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110937</link>
		<dc:creator>radek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Oct 2005 01:08:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110937</guid>
		<description>&quot;It’s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to subsidize and protect their local producers&quot;

It&#039;s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to support and protect their local consumers.

...by not subsidizing and protecting the damn producers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;It&#8217;s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to subsidize and protect their local producers&#8221;</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s perfectly sensible for any community (including nation-states) to support and protect their local consumers.</p>

	<p>&#8230;by not subsidizing and protecting the damn producers.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110796</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2005 21:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110796</guid>
		<description>Matt,

You ask, &lt;i&gt;If subsidies in general (not just farm subsidies) don’t hurt countries other than the one putting the subsidies in place, why do other countries fight so strongly against them? Is it just that their governments are captured so much by domestic business?&lt;/i&gt; (#32)

This phenomenon is well known in economics.  The people harmed are more aware of the harm than those benefited are aware of the benefits.  It is not just domestic business interests, but domestic interests in general.  In other words, being able to buy European grain for $.10 a pound, rather than native grain at $.15 a pound, is good for everyone who buys grain; however, it is very bad for the native farmers who now can&#039;t make a living farming.

In more geekish terms, free trade benefits the economy on balance, but it has distributional effects.  Since utility curves are risk-averse and logarithmic (having X more helps less than having X less hurts, and having 10X as much is not 10X better), the perceived utility effects often run in different directions than the actual economic effects.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Matt,</p>

	<p>You ask, <i>If subsidies in general (not just farm subsidies) don&#8217;t hurt countries other than the one putting the subsidies in place, why do other countries fight so strongly against them? Is it just that their governments are captured so much by domestic business?</i> (#32)</p>

	<p>This phenomenon is well known in economics.  The people harmed are more aware of the harm than those benefited are aware of the benefits.  It is not just domestic business interests, but domestic interests in general.  In other words, being able to buy European grain for $.10 a pound, rather than native grain at $.15 a pound, is good for everyone who buys grain; however, it is very bad for the native farmers who now can&#8217;t make a living farming.</p>

	<p>In more geekish terms, free trade benefits the economy on balance, but it has distributional effects.  Since utility curves are risk-averse and logarithmic (having X more helps less than having X less hurts, and having 10X as much is not 10X better), the perceived utility effects often run in different directions than the actual economic effects.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110784</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110784</guid>
		<description>(in related news, any agri college graduate who has seen a field in the Dordogne and a field in Malawi would be forgiven for thinking that any economic equilibrium under which agricultural products are produced in Malawi and flown to the Dordogne, is likely to be one in which the marginal cost of agricultural labour is so low that it is unlikely that the end of poverty for Malawian agricultural labourers lies in this direction.  It is a fact about Europe that it has a lot of advantages as farmland.  So does a lot of the USA, although there is quite a lot of the USA that would never have been farmed had it not been for government provision of completely uneconomic irrigation systems.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(in related news, any agri college graduate who has seen a field in the Dordogne and a field in Malawi would be forgiven for thinking that any economic equilibrium under which agricultural products are produced in Malawi and flown to the Dordogne, is likely to be one in which the marginal cost of agricultural labour is so low that it is unlikely that the end of poverty for Malawian agricultural labourers lies in this direction.  It is a fact about Europe that it has a lot of advantages as farmland.  So does a lot of the <span class="caps">USA</span>, although there is quite a lot of the <span class="caps">USA</span> that would never have been farmed had it not been for government provision of completely uneconomic irrigation systems.)</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110782</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2005 20:27:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110782</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;My understanding of that argument is this, though I may well be wrong: French government guarantees high prices for ag product to French farmers. They accomplish this by buying up ag product until [...]&lt;/i&gt;

This would have been a reasonable description of the Common Agricultural Policy up until about 1999.  However, it&#039;s no longer accurate at all.

1) EU subsidies for most food industries are no longer volume-based or carried out through market purchases.  What they do is guarantee an income for farmers, usually based on the land they own.  

2) Under the &quot;Everything But Arms&quot; regime, the poorest countries of Africa are allowed to export anything (except arms) into the EU on the same terms as member states.  Unsurprisingly, this has not resulted in Africa exporting massive amounts of wheat and dairy products into the EU, but this is because most of the EU is, for the most part, composed of much better land for dairy and arable farming than most of Africa.  The real beneficiaries of the EBA regime have been the value-added vegetable industries (environmentalists occasionally sniff at whether it really makes a lot of sense to grow haricots verts in Zinbabwe for air-freight to Stockholm but this is a separate question).

I would actually be prepared to pay money to clean the Internet of all the CAP-related articles dated before 1999 which still clog up the debate on this subject.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>My understanding of that argument is this, though I may well be wrong: French government guarantees high prices for ag product to French farmers. They accomplish this by buying up ag product until [...]</i></p>

	<p>This would have been a reasonable description of the Common Agricultural Policy up until about 1999.  However, it&#8217;s no longer accurate at all.</p>

	<p>1) EU subsidies for most food industries are no longer volume-based or carried out through market purchases.  What they do is guarantee an income for farmers, usually based on the land they own.</p>

	<p>2) Under the &#8220;Everything But Arms&#8221; regime, the poorest countries of Africa are allowed to export anything (except arms) into the EU on the same terms as member states.  Unsurprisingly, this has not resulted in Africa exporting massive amounts of wheat and dairy products into the EU, but this is because most of the EU is, for the most part, composed of much better land for dairy and arable farming than most of Africa.  The real beneficiaries of the <span class="caps">EBA</span> regime have been the value-added vegetable industries (environmentalists occasionally sniff at whether it really makes a lot of sense to grow haricots verts in Zinbabwe for air-freight to Stockholm but this is a separate question).</p>

	<p>I would actually be prepared to pay money to clean the Internet of all the <span class="caps">CAP</span>-related articles dated before 1999 which still clog up the debate on this subject.</p>
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		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110770</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2005 19:44:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110770</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But don’t African countries have a hunger problem right there in Africa? &lt;/i&gt;

Starvation usually isn&#039;t caused by an absolute lack of food, but by lack of money to buy food in a subset of the population, often agricultural labourers not hired when crop failure means there is no harvesting work to be done.

Diversification between export and food crops is probably safer than food crops alone.

soru</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But don&#8217;t African countries have a hunger problem right there in Africa? </i></p>

	<p>Starvation usually isn&#8217;t caused by an absolute lack of food, but by lack of money to buy food in a subset of the population, often agricultural labourers not hired when crop failure means there is no harvesting work to be done.</p>

	<p>Diversification between export and food crops is probably safer than food crops alone.</p>

	<p>soru</p>
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		<title>By: CM</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/comment-page-1/#comment-110753</link>
		<dc:creator>CM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2005 18:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/15/talking-rubbish-about-ddt/#comment-110753</guid>
		<description>The proprietors of Arts and Letter Daily seem  to have a unhealthy interest in conservative-mag stories relating to the goodness DDT and the non-existence of global warming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The proprietors of Arts and Letter Daily seem  to have a unhealthy interest in conservative-mag stories relating to the goodness <span class="caps">DDT</span> and the non-existence of global warming.</p>
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