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	<title>Comments on: Spelling vs Grammar</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Kevin F</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-113031</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-113031</guid>
		<description>Re: &quot;I’ve often thought about what that indefinable quality is that makes Bellow so great. Now I know. He spells and punctuates correctly.&quot;

Oh, for Pete&#039;s sake. I meant that Bellow&#039;s thoughts were expressed beautifully, in part because of good sentence structure and spelling.  If his sentences instead included gross or frequent spelling errors, and the grammar made his thoughts hard to follow, he would not *be* Bellow.

Criminey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Re: &#8220;I&#8217;ve often thought about what that indefinable quality is that makes Bellow so great. Now I know. He spells and punctuates correctly.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Oh, for Pete&#8217;s sake. I meant that Bellow&#8217;s thoughts were expressed beautifully, in part because of good sentence structure and spelling.  If his sentences instead included gross or frequent spelling errors, and the grammar made his thoughts hard to follow, he would not <strong>be</strong> Bellow.</p>

	<p>Criminey.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-113025</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2005 15:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-113025</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;True, anyone can make a peanut butter sandwich, and poorly spelled and ungrammatical sentences can convey a simple message.

But sometimes, I want to read a book with flair, and fun, and artistic sensibility. My God, some people can write. Sometimes it’s difficult to finish a few paragraphs by Saul Bellow, just because the writing is so beautiful.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;ve often thought about what that indefinable quality is that makes Bellow so great. Now I know. He spells and punctuates correctly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote>True, anyone can make a peanut butter sandwich, and poorly spelled and ungrammatical sentences can convey a simple message.</blockquote></p>

	<p>But sometimes, I want to read a book with flair, and fun, and artistic sensibility. My God, some people can write. Sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to finish a few paragraphs by Saul Bellow, just because the writing is so beautiful.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve often thought about what that indefinable quality is that makes Bellow so great. Now I know. He spells and punctuates correctly.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kevin F</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-112755</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin F</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Oct 2005 13:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-112755</guid>
		<description>Spelling and punctuation are equally critical. Their utility varies according to the specific sentence being written, but routinely deprived of correct forms of one or the other simply results in bad writing.

Good writing is like good cooking. Ingredients, placed in just the right combination, at just the right time, become something sublime. True, anyone can make a peanut butter sandwich, and poorly spelled and ungrammatical sentences can convey a simple message.

But sometimes, I want to read a book with flair, and fun, and artistic sensibility. My God, some people can write. Sometimes it&#039;s difficult to finish a few paragraphs by Saul Bellow, just because the writing is so beautiful. To re-read those sentences, even aloud, is a joy.

But spelling versus grammar? It&#039;s like trying to choose between wit and wisdom. I want both.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Spelling and punctuation are equally critical. Their utility varies according to the specific sentence being written, but routinely deprived of correct forms of one or the other simply results in bad writing.</p>

	<p>Good writing is like good cooking. Ingredients, placed in just the right combination, at just the right time, become something sublime. True, anyone can make a peanut butter sandwich, and poorly spelled and ungrammatical sentences can convey a simple message.</p>

	<p>But sometimes, I want to read a book with flair, and fun, and artistic sensibility. My God, some people can write. Sometimes it&#8217;s difficult to finish a few paragraphs by Saul Bellow, just because the writing is so beautiful. To re-read those sentences, even aloud, is a joy.</p>

	<p>But spelling versus grammar? It&#8217;s like trying to choose between wit and wisdom. I want both.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111802</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2005 07:43:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111802</guid>
		<description>30 - exactly the example I was going to give about Spanish, though both Spanish and Mexican, rather than Costa Rican!  When everything&#039;s so regular, it&#039;s easy to mess up the few minor irregularities.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>30 &#8211; exactly the example I was going to give about Spanish, though both Spanish and Mexican, rather than Costa Rican!  When everything&#8217;s so regular, it&#8217;s easy to mess up the few minor irregularities.</p>
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		<title>By: Shelby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111613</link>
		<dc:creator>Shelby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 21:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111613</guid>
		<description>In the non-Gallagher portion of Volokh today, Jim Lindgren &lt;a href=&quot;http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_10_16-2005_10_22.shtml#1129745688&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;examines&lt;/a&gt; the puncuation (and more) in Harriet Miers&#039; response to the Senate pre-hearing questionnaire.  It ain&#039;t pretty.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In the non-Gallagher portion of Volokh today, Jim Lindgren <a href="http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2005_10_16-2005_10_22.shtml#1129745688" rel="nofollow">examines</a> the puncuation (and more) in Harriet Miers&#8217; response to the Senate pre-hearing questionnaire.  It ain&#8217;t pretty.</p>
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		<title>By: JRoth</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111567</link>
		<dc:creator>JRoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 17:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111567</guid>
		<description>Actually, just a few minutes ago on another blog (I can&#039;t track back to it now) there was a failure in parallelism between &quot;which&quot; and &quot;that&quot; plus a possibly misplaced comma, all resulting in an actually unreadable sentence - I gave up after 2 rereads. It was simply impossible to suss out what, precisely, the writer had intended to say.

I might agree that punctuation is often malleable, but grammar as a whole is pretty critical to any but the simplest of communications.

Oh, and I think that people undervalue the etymological clues built into English&#039;s famously non-orthogonal orthography. It may be easier to muddle through a poorly spelled sentence than a poorly constructed one, but the communication suffers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Actually, just a few minutes ago on another blog (I can&#8217;t track back to it now) there was a failure in parallelism between &#8220;which&#8221; and &#8220;that&#8221; plus a possibly misplaced comma, all resulting in an actually unreadable sentence &#8211; I gave up after 2 rereads. It was simply impossible to suss out what, precisely, the writer had intended to say.</p>

	<p>I might agree that punctuation is often malleable, but grammar as a whole is pretty critical to any but the simplest of communications.</p>

	<p>Oh, and I think that people undervalue the etymological clues built into English&#8217;s famously non-orthogonal orthography. It may be easier to muddle through a poorly spelled sentence than a poorly constructed one, but the communication suffers.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: David Gillies</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111550</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gillies</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 16:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111550</guid>
		<description>Blah (no. 7)&#8212;the regularity of spelling in Spanish does indeed make mistakes less likely; there is one pitfall, at least in the Costa Rican Spanish with which I am most familiar: a &#039;b&#039; and a &#039;v&#039; are sounded identically as a voiced bilabial fricative (which does not exist in English). This can lead to mis-spellings, particularly among the less well-educated. Examples I have seen include &#039;travajar&#039; instead of the correct &#039;trabajar&#039; (to work), &#039;dever&#039; instead of &#039;deber&#039; (to owe) and, most amusingly, between &#039;botar&#039; (to throw out, as in garbage) and &#039;votar&#039; (to vote.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Blah (no. 7)&mdash;the regularity of spelling in Spanish does indeed make mistakes less likely; there is one pitfall, at least in the Costa Rican Spanish with which I am most familiar: a &#8216;b&#8217; and a &#8216;v&#8217; are sounded identically as a voiced bilabial fricative (which does not exist in English). This can lead to mis-spellings, particularly among the less well-educated. Examples I have seen include &#8216;travajar&#8217; instead of the correct &#8216;trabajar&#8217; (to work), &#8216;dever&#8217; instead of &#8216;deber&#8217; (to owe) and, most amusingly, between &#8216;botar&#8217; (to throw out, as in garbage) and &#8216;votar&#8217; (to vote.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111516</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:50:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111516</guid>
		<description>THe increasing importance of grammar and spelling goes along with the increasing meritocracy of society. If you hire a man because his father worked for your father, or you get into Harvard because your father did, or even if you hire (or admit to your university) people based on personal recommendations, you don&#039;t have to concern yourself with spelling and grammar. Whereas if you need a quick way to weed out unqualified applicants for whatever merit-based position you&#039;re offering, spelling and grammar are a quick way to winnow the field. 

Serial catowner -- I defend sportscasters against all sorts of calumnies on the basis that it&#039;s really hard to talk completely ad lib for a few hours straight without saying a few dumb things! But you can see certain things happening in sportscasterese that will soon be part of everyday speech: loss of the subjunctive mood, for one: 
&quot;If he catches that pass, they win the game&quot; (when he missed the pass).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>THe increasing importance of grammar and spelling goes along with the increasing meritocracy of society. If you hire a man because his father worked for your father, or you get into Harvard because your father did, or even if you hire (or admit to your university) people based on personal recommendations, you don&#8217;t have to concern yourself with spelling and grammar. Whereas if you need a quick way to weed out unqualified applicants for whatever merit-based position you&#8217;re offering, spelling and grammar are a quick way to winnow the field.</p>

	<p>Serial catowner&#8212;I defend sportscasters against all sorts of calumnies on the basis that it&#8217;s really hard to talk completely ad lib for a few hours straight without saying a few dumb things! But you can see certain things happening in sportscasterese that will soon be part of everyday speech: loss of the subjunctive mood, for one:<br />
&#8220;If he catches that pass, they win the game&#8221; (when he missed the pass).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Nash</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111515</link>
		<dc:creator>Nash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 14:47:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111515</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;while poorly punctuate--even entirely unpunctuated--prose may be unsightly and clumsy to read, its meaning is almost always completely discernible.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;

Tell that to the one, two, or three people confusingly doomed by the muddledness of: 

This execution warrant is for Bob a pianist and a cellist.

This execution warrant is for Bob, a pianist and a cellist.

This execution warrant is for Bob, a pianist, and a cellist.

This execution warrant is for Bob--a pianist and a cellist. 

Oh, and &quot;execution&quot; was a misspelling; we meant to say &quot;execration.&quot;  Our regrets to the family or families of Bob a pianist and a cellist.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>while poorly punctuate&#8212;even entirely unpunctuated&#8212;prose may be unsightly and clumsy to read, its meaning is almost always completely discernible.</i><i></i></p>

	<p>Tell that to the one, two, or three people confusingly doomed by the muddledness of:</p>

	<p>This execution warrant is for Bob a pianist and a cellist.</p>

	<p>This execution warrant is for Bob, a pianist and a cellist.</p>

	<p>This execution warrant is for Bob, a pianist, and a cellist.</p>

	<p>This execution warrant is for Bob&#8212;a pianist and a cellist.</p>

	<p>Oh, and &#8220;execution&#8221; was a misspelling; we meant to say &#8220;execration.&#8221;  Our regrets to the family or families of Bob a pianist and a cellist.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: serial catowner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111505</link>
		<dc:creator>serial catowner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 13:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111505</guid>
		<description>Bad punctuation actually becomes an art form, and George Bush is a good illustration.

Examine what he says- it appears to be a lie, but the grammer is so bad that it can actually be the truth.  His followers think he&#039;s telling them the soothing lies they need to hear, but in a courtroom it would be hard to convict.

You can also see this in the briefs filed by corrupt lawyers.  They appear to have stupid grammatical errors, but, strange to say, many of them form an escape hatch for the lawyer if the brief is ever closely examined.

Another interesting place to watch grammer in action is the play-by-play sports broadcaster.  Too bad George missed his true calling.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bad punctuation actually becomes an art form, and George Bush is a good illustration.</p>

	<p>Examine what he says- it appears to be a lie, but the grammer is so bad that it can actually be the truth.  His followers think he&#8217;s telling them the soothing lies they need to hear, but in a courtroom it would be hard to convict.</p>

	<p>You can also see this in the briefs filed by corrupt lawyers.  They appear to have stupid grammatical errors, but, strange to say, many of them form an escape hatch for the lawyer if the brief is ever closely examined.</p>

	<p>Another interesting place to watch grammer in action is the play-by-play sports broadcaster.  Too bad George missed his true calling.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Martens</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111484</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 10:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111484</guid>
		<description>Mmm... I&#039;m about as prescriptivist as its possible to get and still actually be a linguist, and all that means is that I think it&#039;s normal that people should want to not sound like nitwits when they speak or write and that the things we teach them about language ought to reflect this.  The truth is that language is pretty redundant, that most of the time the niceties can be ignored without loss of meaning, and that the minutiae aren&#039;t really so big a deal.  But, if you don&#039;t know all the bizarre, archaic, often stupid rules of spelling and punctuation, you run the risk of looking like a dolt.  

On the other hand, sound empirical studies show that prescriptive rules of style, spelling and punctuation &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt; make language both easier to write and easier to read, but often don&#039;t.  In most of the world, these facts are taken seriously even if they are widely ignored.  Good solid studies show that it&#039;s easier to read written Texts when all the Nouns are capitalised like in German, while I expect that the English rules concerning Capitalisation - that all Words derived from proper Nouns must have Capitals - actually make it harder.  Generally, you can safely put a comma in English where there is a pause in speech without screwing up or looking like an idiot, in contrast to German, which uses too many commas to make sense.

But one should avoid vulgar Orwellism in thinking about language.  Unclear language does not intrinsically imply unclear thought any more than allowing same-sex marriage denies people the ability to make distinctions between gay and straight relationships.  (A misconception all too common to people and lawyers alike, particularly Maggie Gallagher over at the Volokhs.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mmm&#8230; I&#8217;m about as prescriptivist as its possible to get and still actually be a linguist, and all that means is that I think it&#8217;s normal that people should want to not sound like nitwits when they speak or write and that the things we teach them about language ought to reflect this.  The truth is that language is pretty redundant, that most of the time the niceties can be ignored without loss of meaning, and that the minutiae aren&#8217;t really so big a deal.  But, if you don&#8217;t know all the bizarre, archaic, often stupid rules of spelling and punctuation, you run the risk of looking like a dolt.</p>

	<p>On the other hand, sound empirical studies show that prescriptive rules of style, spelling and punctuation <i>can</i> make language both easier to write and easier to read, but often don&#8217;t.  In most of the world, these facts are taken seriously even if they are widely ignored.  Good solid studies show that it&#8217;s easier to read written Texts when all the Nouns are capitalised like in German, while I expect that the English rules concerning Capitalisation &#8211; that all Words derived from proper Nouns must have Capitals &#8211; actually make it harder.  Generally, you can safely put a comma in English where there is a pause in speech without screwing up or looking like an idiot, in contrast to German, which uses too many commas to make sense.</p>

	<p>But one should avoid vulgar Orwellism in thinking about language.  Unclear language does not intrinsically imply unclear thought any more than allowing same-sex marriage denies people the ability to make distinctions between gay and straight relationships.  (A misconception all too common to people and lawyers alike, particularly Maggie Gallagher over at the Volokhs.)</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Natalie Solent</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111428</link>
		<dc:creator>Natalie Solent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 08:38:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111428</guid>
		<description>Having marked a good many pieces of writing by children in my time, I disagree with Dan Simon&#039;s &quot;Sufficiently incorrect spelling can make a text far more difficult to decipher than even the worst punctuation.&quot;

Mis-spelled words only really cause confusion when, by sheer chance, the sentence still makes sense with either of two possible meanings. Since most homophone pairs have no logical connection with each other this does not happen often. &quot;I got board waiting to meat my frend&quot; does not confuse.

Some punctuation error&#039;s are similarly grating. but, not, confusing.

However many potential punctuation errors  are more like the one quoted by &quot;a&quot; in comment #13, &quot;We oppose everything, which turns workers from one country against those from another.&quot; Thousands of possible sentences could be moulded by this malfunctioning template and still come out making sense, but not the sense the writer intended. 

This boils down to a point similar to that made by &quot;blah&quot;.

Finally, I must disagree with Melissa Spore. Let&#039;s keep pesky experts out of this. They would only spoil the fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Having marked a good many pieces of writing by children in my time, I disagree with Dan Simon&#8217;s &#8220;Sufficiently incorrect spelling can make a text far more difficult to decipher than even the worst punctuation.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Mis-spelled words only really cause confusion when, by sheer chance, the sentence still makes sense with either of two possible meanings. Since most homophone pairs have no logical connection with each other this does not happen often. &#8220;I got board waiting to meat my frend&#8221; does not confuse.</p>

	<p>Some punctuation error&#8217;s are similarly grating. but, not, confusing.</p>

	<p>However many potential punctuation errors  are more like the one quoted by &#8220;a&#8221; in comment #13, &#8220;We oppose everything, which turns workers from one country against those from another.&#8221; Thousands of possible sentences could be moulded by this malfunctioning template and still come out making sense, but not the sense the writer intended.</p>

	<p>This boils down to a point similar to that made by &#8220;blah&#8221;.</p>

	<p>Finally, I must disagree with Melissa Spore. Let&#8217;s keep pesky experts out of this. They would only spoil the fun.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: dr ngo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111355</link>
		<dc:creator>dr ngo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 07:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111355</guid>
		<description>Some twenty years ago I attended a seminar by the general editor of the complete works of Herman Melville.  While admitting that much of his work consisted of reconciling small discrepancies among various versions of the texts, he insisted that even the most innocuous correction of punctuation could be significant.  Imagine, he said, that the first line of &lt;i&gt;Moby Dick&lt;/i&gt; ran:  &quot;Call me, Ishmael.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Some twenty years ago I attended a seminar by the general editor of the complete works of Herman Melville.  While admitting that much of his work consisted of reconciling small discrepancies among various versions of the texts, he insisted that even the most innocuous correction of punctuation could be significant.  Imagine, he said, that the first line of <i>Moby Dick</i> ran:  &#8220;Call me, Ishmael.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: melissa spore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111342</link>
		<dc:creator>melissa spore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 06:39:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111342</guid>
		<description>Could we please get Language Hat or someone from Language Log here to give informed comment?  The entertainment value of Speculation is limited.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Could we please get Language Hat or someone from Language Log here to give informed comment?  The entertainment value of Speculation is limited.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/comment-page-1/#comment-111337</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Oct 2005 06:06:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/18/spelling-vs-grammar/#comment-111337</guid>
		<description>Damn. Straight!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Damn. Straight!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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