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	<title>Comments on: Doormen</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-116271</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 17:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-116271</guid>
		<description>I wasn&#039;t meaning to suggest that no-one should read Rashdall. Rather I was taking the opportunity to point to Waldron&#039;s discussion - which is pretty interesting.

On games counterexamples - your rule (3) seems to fall foul of the way many players in English Premier League Football approach their task!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I wasn&#8217;t meaning to suggest that no-one should read Rashdall. Rather I was taking the opportunity to point to Waldron&#8217;s discussion &#8211; which is pretty interesting.</p>

	<p>On games counterexamples &#8211; your rule (3) seems to fall foul of the way many players in English Premier League Football approach their task!</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-116269</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-116269</guid>
		<description>Chess is one of the first counterexamples Suits discusses. It has two kinds of rules. One determines the powers of the pieces and is used to define checkmate. The other forbids you to use the most efficient means to achieve checkmate, such as taking two turns in a row, moving your queen through other pieces, etc. So though the goal of chess is not independent of the first kind of rules, it is independent of the second kind, which are the ones mentioned in the definition. With that complication, chess absolutely fits the definition.

Yes, Rashdall made racist comments, which I&#039;ve quoted disapprovingly myself. But it hardly follows that nothing he wrote is worth reading. If we were to dismiss every past thinker with some racist or sexist views no one would read Aristotle. But as I recall one or two people do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Chess is one of the first counterexamples Suits discusses. It has two kinds of rules. One determines the powers of the pieces and is used to define checkmate. The other forbids you to use the most efficient means to achieve checkmate, such as taking two turns in a row, moving your queen through other pieces, etc. So though the goal of chess is not independent of the first kind of rules, it is independent of the second kind, which are the ones mentioned in the definition. With that complication, chess absolutely fits the definition.</p>

	<p>Yes, Rashdall made racist comments, which I&#8217;ve quoted disapprovingly myself. But it hardly follows that nothing he wrote is worth reading. If we were to dismiss every past thinker with some racist or sexist views no one would read Aristotle. But as I recall one or two people do.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-116260</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:38:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-116260</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t chess a straightforward counterexample to (1)?

BTW Rashdall gets a skewering for his appalling racism from Jeremy Waldron in his _God, Locke and Equality_ .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Isn&#8217;t chess a straightforward counterexample to (1)?</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BTW </span>Rashdall gets a skewering for his appalling racism from Jeremy Waldron in his <em>God, Locke and Equality</em> .</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-116257</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 15:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-116257</guid>
		<description>Kieran: Rashdall is discussing Simmel&#039;s Einleitung in die Moralwissenschaft of 1892, which says it&#039;s better to have lots of pleasure and lots of pain in your life than just to have lots of pleasure.

Ben: Rashdall says that &quot;&#039;sport&#039; has been well defined as the overcoming of difficulties simply for the sake of overcoming them.&quot; A more elaborate development of the same idea is in Bernard Suits, The Grasshopper: Games, Life and Utopia, (1978), about to be reprinted by Broadview Press and, though little known, one of the great philosophy books of the 20th century. (Philosophers: the reprint has glowing blurbs by Simon Blackburn and Shelly Kagan.) According to Suits, a game, or the activity of playing a game, has three main elements. (1) It&#039;s aimed a goal that can be described independently of the game, such as that a ball go into a hole in the ground or that you stand on top of a mountain. (2) It has rules that forbid to you use the most efficient means to that goal, such as carrying the ball down the fairway by hand and dropping it in the hole or taking a helicopter to the top of the mountain. And (3) in playing the game you accept the restrictions the rules impose willingly, because they make the game possible. Or, in Suits&#039;s summary statement, playing a game is &quot;the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles.&quot; (If counterexamples spring to mind, Suits discusses them all.) And it&#039;s a hilarious book, written as a parody of a Platonic dialogue with the Grasshopper from Aesop&#039;s fable in the role of Socrates and all sorts of wild imaginary scenarios. As Shelly and Simon say, it&#039;s a one-of-a-kind book. And it completely puts the boot to old Wittgenstein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran: Rashdall is discussing Simmel&#8217;s Einleitung in die Moralwissenschaft of 1892, which says it&#8217;s better to have lots of pleasure and lots of pain in your life than just to have lots of pleasure.</p>

	<p>Ben: Rashdall says that &#8220;&#8217;sport&#8217; has been well defined as the overcoming of difficulties simply for the sake of overcoming them.&#8221; A more elaborate development of the same idea is in Bernard Suits, The Grasshopper: Games, Life and Utopia, (1978), about to be reprinted by Broadview Press and, though little known, one of the great philosophy books of the 20th century. (Philosophers: the reprint has glowing blurbs by Simon Blackburn and Shelly Kagan.) According to Suits, a game, or the activity of playing a game, has three main elements. (1) It&#8217;s aimed a goal that can be described independently of the game, such as that a ball go into a hole in the ground or that you stand on top of a mountain. (2) It has rules that forbid to you use the most efficient means to that goal, such as carrying the ball down the fairway by hand and dropping it in the hole or taking a helicopter to the top of the mountain. And (3) in playing the game you accept the restrictions the rules impose willingly, because they make the game possible. Or, in Suits&#8217;s summary statement, playing a game is &#8220;the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles.&#8221; (If counterexamples spring to mind, Suits discusses them all.) And it&#8217;s a hilarious book, written as a parody of a Platonic dialogue with the Grasshopper from Aesop&#8217;s fable in the role of Socrates and all sorts of wild imaginary scenarios. As Shelly and Simon say, it&#8217;s a one-of-a-kind book. And it completely puts the boot to old Wittgenstein.</p>
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		<title>By: ben wolfson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115984</link>
		<dc:creator>ben wolfson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 04:11:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115984</guid>
		<description>tom hurka, can you share that definition?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>tom hurka, can you share that definition?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115980</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115980</guid>
		<description>_&quot;...wrote a philosophical dissertation on Yodeling&quot;_

GOD DAMNIT!  All of my best ideas turn out to not be original.  Back to the draw board...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>&#8220;&#8230;wrote a philosophical dissertation on Yodeling&#8221;</em></p>

	<p><span class="caps">GOD DAMNIT</span>!  All of my best ideas turn out to not be original.  Back to the draw board&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115977</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 03:26:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115977</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;He also wrote philosophy&lt;/em&gt;

He studied philosophy at Berlin, I believe, and wrote a philosophical dissertation on Yodeling. But it was rejected, so he wrote another one on Kant&#039;s philosophy of nature instead. (This is from memory, but I&#039;m pretty sure it&#039;s true.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>He also wrote philosophy</em></p>

	<p>He studied philosophy at Berlin, I believe, and wrote a philosophical dissertation on Yodeling. But it was rejected, so he wrote another one on Kant&#8217;s philosophy of nature instead. (This is from memory, but I&#8217;m pretty sure it&#8217;s true.)</p>
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		<title>By: Tom Hurka</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115975</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom Hurka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 02:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115975</guid>
		<description>Simmel? He also wrote philosophy, and though I haven&#039;t read  any, there&#039;s a hilarious discussion of some of it in Hastings Rashdall, The Theory of Good and Evil (1907), vol. 2, around pp. 104-06. No one&#039;s going to look this up, but it just is very funny. Simmel thinks the best human life has lots of ups and downs -- lots of pain as well as lots of pleasure --, is full of Taetigkeit, etc., all very Teutonic. And Rashdall, after describing it all very patiently, skewers it in a delightful and very English way. As I say, no one&#039;s going to look this, but it&#039;s a treat (and has Rashdall, offhand, giving, contra Wittgenstein, the correct single definition of a sport or game). Ah those Edwardians!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Simmel? He also wrote philosophy, and though I haven&#8217;t read  any, there&#8217;s a hilarious discussion of some of it in Hastings Rashdall, The Theory of Good and Evil (1907), vol. 2, around pp. 104-06. No one&#8217;s going to look this up, but it just is very funny. Simmel thinks the best human life has lots of ups and downs&#8212;lots of pain as well as lots of pleasure&#8212;, is full of Taetigkeit, etc., all very Teutonic. And Rashdall, after describing it all very patiently, skewers it in a delightful and very English way. As I say, no one&#8217;s going to look this, but it&#8217;s a treat (and has Rashdall, offhand, giving, contra Wittgenstein, the correct single definition of a sport or game). Ah those Edwardians!</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115971</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 02:17:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115971</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;working on an analysis of White’s social theory. I wonder if that ever came to anything. Kieran, has anyone published anything like that in sociology?&lt;/em&gt;

I know of a dissertation or two that could be characterized that way. (Maybe one of them is the person you knew: I think they&#039;re Scandinavian.) I have some (very underdeveloped notes) of my own for a seminar of this sort (which I&#039;ve never given). Maybe one day I&#039;ll offer it -- assuming I have a good enough grip on the stuff. Though there are people in my department who have a lot more expertise than me in that area...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>working on an analysis of White&#8217;s social theory. I wonder if that ever came to anything. Kieran, has anyone published anything like that in sociology?</em></p>

	<p>I know of a dissertation or two that could be characterized that way. (Maybe one of them is the person you knew: I think they&#8217;re Scandinavian.) I have some (very underdeveloped notes) of my own for a seminar of this sort (which I&#8217;ve never given). Maybe one day I&#8217;ll offer it&#8212;assuming I have a good enough grip on the stuff. Though there are people in my department who have a lot more expertise than me in that area&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115969</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:58:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115969</guid>
		<description>Kieran, Dan: Thanks. I&#039;d never thought about Tilly that way, but it makes a lot of sense.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kieran, Dan: Thanks. I&#8217;d never thought about Tilly that way, but it makes a lot of sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115966</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115966</guid>
		<description>My sociological knowledge is scatter-shot at best, but I think Kieran forgot to mention conflict theory, which was once a major alternative to Parsonsian structural functionalism; conflict theorists were influenced by Simmel. Simmel was attractive to the anti-Parsons crowd not only because of his emphasis on conflict and contradiction in local interactions, but because Parsons left him out of the &quot;canon&quot; of theorists whose work supposedly culminated in the Parsonsian synthesis. Of course, DJW&#039;s question was about &quot;contemporary&quot; sociology...

If one looks broadly at relational sociology, particularly in its comparative-historical variant (e.g., Tilly), I think it is fair to say that one finds basically an interesting combination of Weber and Simmel: Weberian in its approach to assessing causal processes, Simmelian in its emphasis upon recurrent forms and their related processes/dynamics.

A side note: Back when some of us in Columbia PhD program in Political Science were trying to work our way through White&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Identity and Control&lt;/i&gt;, one of us approached him (during a Contemporary Civilization meeting) and mentioned that he was reading the book, but was having trouble understanding it. White&#039;s response was, IIRC, &quot;that&#039;s okay, I don&#039;t think I understand it either&quot; :-). I relied mostly on Chuck Tilly&#039;s &quot;skeleton key&quot; to the book; I also tried to absorb whatever I could from the one class I took with Peter. 

At one point the contentious politics seminar had a graduate student who was visiting form elsewhere and working on an analysis of White&#039;s social theory. I wonder if that ever came to anything. Kieran, has anyone published anything like that in sociology? Anyway, Fascinating stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My sociological knowledge is scatter-shot at best, but I think Kieran forgot to mention conflict theory, which was once a major alternative to Parsonsian structural functionalism; conflict theorists were influenced by Simmel. Simmel was attractive to the anti-Parsons crowd not only because of his emphasis on conflict and contradiction in local interactions, but because Parsons left him out of the &#8220;canon&#8221; of theorists whose work supposedly culminated in the Parsonsian synthesis. Of course, <span class="caps">DJW</span>&#8217;s question was about &#8220;contemporary&#8221; sociology&#8230;</p>

	<p>If one looks broadly at relational sociology, particularly in its comparative-historical variant (e.g., Tilly), I think it is fair to say that one finds basically an interesting combination of Weber and Simmel: Weberian in its approach to assessing causal processes, Simmelian in its emphasis upon recurrent forms and their related processes/dynamics.</p>

	<p>A side note: Back when some of us in Columbia PhD program in Political Science were trying to work our way through White&#8217;s <i>Identity and Control</i>, one of us approached him (during a Contemporary Civilization meeting) and mentioned that he was reading the book, but was having trouble understanding it. White&#8217;s response was, <span class="caps">IIRC</span>, &#8220;that&#8217;s okay, I don&#8217;t think I understand it either&#8221; :-). I relied mostly on Chuck Tilly&#8217;s &#8220;skeleton key&#8221; to the book; I also tried to absorb whatever I could from the one class I took with Peter.</p>

	<p>At one point the contentious politics seminar had a graduate student who was visiting form elsewhere and working on an analysis of White&#8217;s social theory. I wonder if that ever came to anything. Kieran, has anyone published anything like that in sociology? Anyway, Fascinating stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115963</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115963</guid>
		<description>Fixed now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Fixed now.</p>
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		<title>By: david</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115962</link>
		<dc:creator>david</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:41:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115962</guid>
		<description>Summary link broken.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Summary link broken.</p>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115960</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Oct 2005 00:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115960</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;If you, or someone, could say something about Simmel’s status in sociology today, or direct me somewhere to find out about it. Do sociology grad students have to learn him well, as they do with Durkheim/Marx/Weber?&lt;/i&gt;

They do in &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.kieranhealy.org/files/teaching/soc300-syllabus-f04.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;my class&lt;/a&gt;! And in many others, too. I&#039;d say his stock has been on the rise since the late 1980s.

&lt;i&gt;Are there prominent sociologists who are considered Simmelian in their approach?&lt;/i&gt;

Sure. At least three quite different styles of sociology trace themselves at least in part to him. One is a tradition of small-group research on the structure of dyads and triads, etc. A second is a (mostly British) line of cultural analysis that takes Simmel&#039;s writings on the city and individual identity as foundational. And a third is a branch of modern social network theory, of which my colleague &quot;Ron Breiger&quot;:http://www.u.arizona.edu/~breiger/ is a leading exponent. His classic paper on &lt;a href=&quot;http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0037-7732%28197412%2953%3A2%3C181%3ATDOPAG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Duality of Persons and Groups&lt;/a&gt; (JSTOR link; &lt;a href=&quot;http://amadeus.management.mcgill.ca/~mark.mortensen/orgweb/summaries/gsb/content/Breiger.html&quot;&gt;summary here&lt;/a&gt;) takes its inspiration from Simmel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>If you, or someone, could say something about Simmel&#8217;s status in sociology today, or direct me somewhere to find out about it. Do sociology grad students have to learn him well, as they do with Durkheim/Marx/Weber?</i></p>

	<p>They do in <a href="http://www.kieranhealy.org/files/teaching/soc300-syllabus-f04.pdf" rel="nofollow">my class</a>! And in many others, too. I&#8217;d say his stock has been on the rise since the late 1980s.</p>

	<p><i>Are there prominent sociologists who are considered Simmelian in their approach?</i></p>

	<p>Sure. At least three quite different styles of sociology trace themselves at least in part to him. One is a tradition of small-group research on the structure of dyads and triads, etc. A second is a (mostly British) line of cultural analysis that takes Simmel&#8217;s writings on the city and individual identity as foundational. And a third is a branch of modern social network theory, of which my colleague <a href="http://www.u.arizona.edu/~breiger/" title="">Ron Breiger</a> is a leading exponent. His classic paper on <a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0037-7732%28197412%2953%3A2%3C181%3ATDOPAG%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B" rel="nofollow">The Duality of Persons and Groups</a> (JSTOR link; <a href="http://amadeus.management.mcgill.ca/~mark.mortensen/orgweb/summaries/gsb/content/Breiger.html">summary here</a>) takes its inspiration from Simmel.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/comment-page-1/#comment-115956</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Oct 2005 23:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/10/30/doormen/#comment-115956</guid>
		<description>The best way to remain on good terms with a doorman would be to actually spend some of your off hours in the basement.

And this: 
&quot;Sebastian, a doorman who has worked in Midtown on the East Side for seven years, describes his coworkers as “a little bit of everything. Jamaican, Trinidad, Peru.” This is a little bit of everything within the scope of the Monroe Doctrine.&quot;

Not so simple.

I&#039;ve been riding in service elevators in Manhattan- I&#039;m a carpenter/plasterer/construction mechanic- for the last 25 years.  On Park and 5th until recently at least, preferably white in the front (often Irish) niggers in the back.  95th and Park last year?: Russian, Romanian and Trini.  A lot of Poles as well.
And as you&#039;d expect there&#039;s a racial difference between west and east.  McGeorge Bundy&#039;s building, white.  Al Franken&#039;s building mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican. 
Franken gets good marks from the help, but his wife gets raves. Same with Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson (same building)
The wives are loved.

A book I&#039;d love to read:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://sorry.gov&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Status Seeking and Philosophical Naturalism: a study of modern academic life&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The best way to remain on good terms with a doorman would be to actually spend some of your off hours in the basement.</p>

	<p>And this:<br />
&#8220;Sebastian, a doorman who has worked in Midtown on the East Side for seven years, describes his coworkers as &#8220;a little bit of everything. Jamaican, Trinidad, Peru.&#8221; This is a little bit of everything within the scope of the Monroe Doctrine.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Not so simple.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve been riding in service elevators in Manhattan- I&#8217;m a carpenter/plasterer/construction mechanic- for the last 25 years.  On Park and 5th until recently at least, preferably white in the front (often Irish) niggers in the back.  95th and Park last year?: Russian, Romanian and Trini.  A lot of Poles as well.<br />
And as you&#8217;d expect there&#8217;s a racial difference between west and east.  McGeorge Bundy&#8217;s building, white.  Al Franken&#8217;s building mostly Puerto Rican and Dominican.<br />
Franken gets good marks from the help, but his wife gets raves. Same with Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson (same building)<br />
The wives are loved.</p>

	<p>A book I&#8217;d love to read:<br />
<a href="http://sorry.gov" rel="nofollow">Status Seeking and Philosophical Naturalism: a study of modern academic life</a></p>
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