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	<title>Comments on: Deference to Congress</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: GreggMT</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-118221</link>
		<dc:creator>GreggMT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:32:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-118221</guid>
		<description>The GOP is really getting nervous about Iraq now.  Eleanor Clift actually talked about &lt;i&gt;&lt;b&gt;Bush&#039;s impeachment&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/i&gt; in her column today.  As a result, we can now behold the hilarious spectacle of &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/11/powerline-boy-impeachment-is-anti.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GOP drones actually whining that impeachment is anti-democratic and unfair.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The <span class="caps">GOP</span> is really getting nervous about Iraq now.  Eleanor Clift actually talked about <i><b>Bush&#8217;s impeachment</b></i> in her column today.  As a result, we can now behold the hilarious spectacle of <a HREF="http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2005/11/powerline-boy-impeachment-is-anti.html" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">GOP</span> drones actually whining that impeachment is anti-democratic and unfair.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Functional</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-118087</link>
		<dc:creator>Functional</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 02:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-118087</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;A genuine practitioner of judicial restraint would have allowed them a wide enough berth to do so. Alito’s colleagues did just that. But Alito used his own logic to call for its overturn&lt;/i&gt;


Used his own logic?  What the hell.  Alito was doing his best to apply the Supreme Court&#039;s reasoning from &lt;i&gt;Lopez&lt;/i&gt;; the majority was doing its best to avoid having to do so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>A genuine practitioner of judicial restraint would have allowed them a wide enough berth to do so. Alito&#8217;s colleagues did just that. But Alito used his own logic to call for its overturn</i></p>


	<p>Used his own logic?  What the hell.  Alito was doing his best to apply the Supreme Court&#8217;s reasoning from <i>Lopez</i>; the majority was doing its best to avoid having to do so.</p>
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		<title>By: b a benedict</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-118063</link>
		<dc:creator>b a benedict</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 21:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-118063</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not sure Alito did imply that there was amere &quot;technicality&quot; that could be fixed (and, really, if it&#039;s a mere technicality that&#039;s the problem and not a substanital federalism issue, then is exercising judicial review legitimate?), especially if you consider not only Lopez but Morrison, where the &quot;mountain of evidence&quot; of substanital economic impact resulting from gender-based violence was essentially ignored in Rehnquist&#039;s opinion striking down VAWA, due largely to the imposition on state police powers.

As for the limits of the commerce clause, if you stick to a good faith application of the substantial effects test (and a modest judiciary), you might just squeeze Wickard in there (maybe), but Raich is just wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m not sure Alito did imply that there was amere &#8220;technicality&#8221; that could be fixed (and, really, if it&#8217;s a mere technicality that&#8217;s the problem and not a substanital federalism issue, then is exercising judicial review legitimate?), especially if you consider not only Lopez but Morrison, where the &#8220;mountain of evidence&#8221; of substanital economic impact resulting from gender-based violence was essentially ignored in Rehnquist&#8217;s opinion striking down <span class="caps">VAWA</span>, due largely to the imposition on state police powers.</p>

	<p>As for the limits of the commerce clause, if you stick to a good faith application of the substantial effects test (and a modest judiciary), you might just squeeze Wickard in there (maybe), but Raich is just wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117900</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 15:28:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117900</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;California, alone, is bigger than all of Canada. Why don’t American liberals try to build social democracy in the states they could win a majority in?&lt;/i&gt;

They&#039;re afraid the lab rats would escape their experiment by moving to Oregon and Washington.  No matter how wonderful it clearly is, it can&#039;t work if people can opt out (despite the fact that nobody would opt out if it was half as wonderful as they claim it is).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>California, alone, is bigger than all of Canada. Why don&#8217;t American liberals try to build social democracy in the states they could win a majority in?</i></p>

	<p>They&#8217;re afraid the lab rats would escape their experiment by moving to Oregon and Washington.  No matter how wonderful it clearly is, it can&#8217;t work if people can opt out (despite the fact that nobody would opt out if it was half as wonderful as they claim it is).</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117579</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 20:36:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117579</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s right I didn&#039;t, so I&#039;ll shut up now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>That&#8217;s right I didn&#8217;t, so I&#8217;ll shut up now.</p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117544</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117544</guid>
		<description>&quot;I think it’s pretty clear that he doesn’t believe that this technicality can be corrected, because the empirical evidence he asks for, in fact, doesn’t exist. That’s my impression anyway.&quot;

You clearly didn&#039;t read the opinion in that case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;I think it&#8217;s pretty clear that he doesn&#8217;t believe that this technicality can be corrected, because the empirical evidence he asks for, in fact, doesn&#8217;t exist. That&#8217;s my impression anyway.&#8221;</p>

	<p>You clearly didn&#8217;t read the opinion in that case.</p>
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		<title>By: Pithlord</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117536</link>
		<dc:creator>Pithlord</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 17:18:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117536</guid>
		<description>Canada, like the United States, is a federation in which the federal level of government is given jurisdiction over &quot;Trade and Commerce.&quot; Unlike the post-New Deal US courts, the courts interpreting this power (and other broad federal legislative powers) have consistently done so very restrictively. 

Which country has the more social-democratic policies? (Note: All of this divergence has occurred since the 1930s when Canadian courts went the opposite direction of American ones. The Canadian healthcare system started in a single province, and is still provincially administered.)

California, alone, is bigger than all of Canada. Why don&#039;t American liberals try to build social democracy in the states they could win a majority in?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Canada, like the United States, is a federation in which the federal level of government is given jurisdiction over &#8220;Trade and Commerce.&#8221; Unlike the post-New Deal US courts, the courts interpreting this power (and other broad federal legislative powers) have consistently done so very restrictively.</p>

	<p>Which country has the more social-democratic policies? (Note: All of this divergence has occurred since the 1930s when Canadian courts went the opposite direction of American ones. The Canadian healthcare system started in a single province, and is still provincially administered.)</p>

	<p>California, alone, is bigger than all of Canada. Why don&#8217;t American liberals try to build social democracy in the states they could win a majority in?</p>
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		<title>By: Rvman</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117521</link>
		<dc:creator>Rvman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 15:35:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117521</guid>
		<description>&gt; if Congress made findings that the purely 
&gt;intrastate possession of machine guns has a 
&gt;substantial effect on interstate commerce

A Congressional finding doesn&#039;t require much more than a committee meeting, a couple of witnesses expressing the opinion the &#039;finding&#039; would &#039;find&#039;, and a vote.  It isn&#039;t much of an &#039;empirical&#039; standard. Alito knows this.  He&#039;s just bringing up the idea that the Congress should actually back up its claims of jurisdiction with more than an &quot;I say so&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>> if Congress made findings that the purely<br />
>intrastate possession of machine guns has a<br />
>substantial effect on interstate commerce</p>

	<p>A Congressional finding doesn&#8217;t require much more than a committee meeting, a couple of witnesses expressing the opinion the &#8216;finding&#8217; would &#8216;find&#8217;, and a vote.  It isn&#8217;t much of an &#8216;empirical&#8217; standard. Alito knows this.  He&#8217;s just bringing up the idea that the Congress should actually back up its claims of jurisdiction with more than an &#8220;I say so&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117386</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117386</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;So far as I can tell, the opinion is very plain that he found technical fault with the way the law is written, and nothing at all that prevents Congress from correcting it.&lt;/i&gt;

I think it&#039;s pretty clear that he doesn&#039;t believe that this technicality can be corrected, because the empirical evidence he asks for, in fact, doesn&#039;t exist. That&#039;s my impression anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So far as I can tell, the opinion is very plain that he found technical fault with the way the law is written, and nothing at all that prevents Congress from correcting it.</i></p>

	<p>I think it&#8217;s pretty clear that he doesn&#8217;t believe that this technicality can be corrected, because the empirical evidence he asks for, in fact, doesn&#8217;t exist. That&#8217;s my impression anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Farber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117373</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Farber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117373</guid>
		<description>I do find it interesting that 37 comments went by, and a post, discussing a decision, with no one bothering to link to, quote, or discuss, the actual decision.  I guess that would be a distraction from getting straight to one&#039;s opinion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I do find it interesting that 37 comments went by, and a post, discussing a decision, with no one bothering to link to, quote, or discuss, the actual decision.  I guess that would be a distraction from getting straight to one&#8217;s opinion.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Farber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117372</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Farber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:32:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117372</guid>
		<description>&quot;But Alito used his own logic to call for its overturn, arguing that [...] thus Congress had no right to regulate it.&quot;

As I &lt;a href=&quot;http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2005/11/guy-who-favors-sodomy-cant-be-all-bad.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wrote&lt;/a&gt; earlier today, this turns out not to be true, unless I&#039;m missing something.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_rybar.txt&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&lt;/a&gt; is the decision and Alito&#039;s dissent, which includes this: &lt;blockquote&gt; This would not preclude adequate regulation of the private possession of machine guns. Needless to say, the Commerce Clause does not prevent the states from regulating machine gun possession, as all of the jurisdictions within our circuit have done. [...] Moreover, the statute challenged here would satisfy the demands of the Commerce Clause if Congress simply added a jurisdictional element--a common feature of federal laws in this field and one that has not posed any noticeable problems for federal law enforcement. In addition, as I explain below, 18 U.S.C. section 922(o) might be sustainable in its current form if Congress made findings that the purely intrastate possession of machine guns has a substantial effect on interstate commerce or if Congress or the Executive assembled empirical evidence documenting such a link. If, as the government and the majority baldly insist, the purely intrastate possession of machine guns has such an effect, these steps are not too much to demand to protect our system of constitutional federalism. &lt;/blockquote&gt; Is that, in fact, saying that Congress (or the states) can&#039;t ban possession of machine guns?  So far as I can tell, the opinion is very plain that he found technical fault with the way the law is written, and nothing at all that prevents Congress from correcting it.  I don&#039;t know if his analysis is &quot;right&quot; or &quot;wrong,&quot; but where&#039;s the part preventing Congress from banning private machine gun ownership?

I&#039;ve learned not to take anyone&#039;s word for what a decision says, because most people tend to pass on mistaken hearsay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;But Alito used his own logic to call for its overturn, arguing that [...] thus Congress had no right to regulate it.&#8221;</p>

	<p>As I <a href="http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2005/11/guy-who-favors-sodomy-cant-be-all-bad.html" rel="nofollow">wrote</a> earlier today, this turns out not to be true, unless I&#8217;m missing something.  <a href="http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/us_v_rybar.txt" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is the decision and Alito&#8217;s dissent, which includes this: <blockquote> This would not preclude adequate regulation of the private possession of machine guns. Needless to say, the Commerce Clause does not prevent the states from regulating machine gun possession, as all of the jurisdictions within our circuit have done. [...] Moreover, the statute challenged here would satisfy the demands of the Commerce Clause if Congress simply added a jurisdictional element&#8212;a common feature of federal laws in this field and one that has not posed any noticeable problems for federal law enforcement. In addition, as I explain below, 18 U.S.C. section 922(o) might be sustainable in its current form if Congress made findings that the purely intrastate possession of machine guns has a substantial effect on interstate commerce or if Congress or the Executive assembled empirical evidence documenting such a link. If, as the government and the majority baldly insist, the purely intrastate possession of machine guns has such an effect, these steps are not too much to demand to protect our system of constitutional federalism. </blockquote> Is that, in fact, saying that Congress (or the states) can&#8217;t ban possession of machine guns?  So far as I can tell, the opinion is very plain that he found technical fault with the way the law is written, and nothing at all that prevents Congress from correcting it.  I don&#8217;t know if his analysis is &#8220;right&#8221; or &#8220;wrong,&#8221; but where&#8217;s the part preventing Congress from banning private machine gun ownership?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve learned not to take anyone&#8217;s word for what a decision says, because most people tend to pass on mistaken hearsay.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117371</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 04:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117371</guid>
		<description>Ornstein says &quot;Some time ago, Jeffrey Rosen, a superb legal scholar, pointed out Alito’s dissent in a 1996 decision upholding the constitutionality of a law that banned the possession of machine guns. We are not talking handguns, rifles or even assault weapons. We’re talking machine guns.&quot; 

Which gives the game away.  

I mean, it shouldn&#039;t matter, on his view, whether we&#039;re talking about knives or tanks--the principle should be the same.  But by mentioning the particular facts in this way, as if they matter, he&#039;s strongly suggesting that it isn&#039;t principle, but the result that he&#039;s after here.  Ornstein isn&#039;t interested in judicial restraint; he&#039;s interested in &quot;good policy&quot;, by the lights of Ornstein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ornstein says &#8220;Some time ago, Jeffrey Rosen, a superb legal scholar, pointed out Alito&#8217;s dissent in a 1996 decision upholding the constitutionality of a law that banned the possession of machine guns. We are not talking handguns, rifles or even assault weapons. We&#8217;re talking machine guns.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Which gives the game away.</p>

	<p>I mean, it shouldn&#8217;t matter, on his view, whether we&#8217;re talking about knives or tanks&#8212;the principle should be the same.  But by mentioning the particular facts in this way, as if they matter, he&#8217;s strongly suggesting that it isn&#8217;t principle, but the result that he&#8217;s after here.  Ornstein isn&#8217;t interested in judicial restraint; he&#8217;s interested in &#8220;good policy&#8221;, by the lights of Ornstein.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117321</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 00:20:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117321</guid>
		<description>Speaking of machine guns, here&#039;s a &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mp5.net/info/ATF_Ruling_2004-09-30_String_Trick.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;PDF&lt;/a&gt; of a letter where the ATF rules a shoelace is a machine gun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Speaking of machine guns, here&#8217;s a <a href="http://www.mp5.net/info/ATF_Ruling_2004-09-30_String_Trick.pdf" rel="nofollow"><span class="caps">PDF</span></a> of a letter where the <span class="caps">ATF</span> rules a shoelace is a machine gun.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117293</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2005 00:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117293</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Without application of the interstate commerce clause (icc), corporations would run amok. It was use of the icc that enabled the Feds to regulate hazard conditions in the workplace, child labor laws, minimum wages, environmental hazards etc. etc. States tend to be much more conservative&lt;/i&gt;

Which turns the Constitution into nothing more than a political weapon to use against your opponents (because we know you won&#039;t grant those same conservatives as much leeway when &lt;b&gt;they&lt;/b&gt; want something you consider wrong and the text of the Constitution would forbid) instead of a set of neutral rules we all have to live with.

If the Consitution means what a liberal says it means, because he is morally right and others are morally wrong, why should nonliberals bother obeying it other than threats of physical force from the cops?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Without application of the interstate commerce clause (icc), corporations would run amok. It was use of the icc that enabled the Feds to regulate hazard conditions in the workplace, child labor laws, minimum wages, environmental hazards etc. etc. States tend to be much more conservative</i></p>

	<p>Which turns the Constitution into nothing more than a political weapon to use against your opponents (because we know you won&#8217;t grant those same conservatives as much leeway when <b>they</b> want something you consider wrong and the text of the Constitution would forbid) instead of a set of neutral rules we all have to live with.</p>

	<p>If the Consitution means what a liberal says it means, because he is morally right and others are morally wrong, why should nonliberals bother obeying it other than threats of physical force from the cops?</p>
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		<title>By: mikez</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/02/deference-to-congress/comment-page-1/#comment-117226</link>
		<dc:creator>mikez</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:58:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4010#comment-117226</guid>
		<description>Machine guns? Yawn. Congresscum ain&#039;t gittin&#039; mah thermonucular device until they pry it from my cold, dead hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Machine guns? Yawn. Congresscum ain&#8217;t gittin&#8217; mah thermonucular device until they pry it from my cold, dead hands.</p>
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