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	<title>Comments on: Land of the free</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Charlie B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118734</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:07:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118734</guid>
		<description>The problem is that you don’t have anything near a consensus about what the “purpose and goals of incarceration” are. (Sebastian). Indeed, and this topic makes no sense without that -- so the whole of the preceding thread has rested on assumptions that have nothing whatsoever to do with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The problem is that you don&#8217;t have anything near a consensus about what the &#8220;purpose and goals of incarceration&#8221; are. (Sebastian). Indeed, and this topic makes no sense without that&#8212;so the whole of the preceding thread has rested on assumptions that have nothing whatsoever to do with it.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118733</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 20:03:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118733</guid>
		<description>&quot;Charlie, the steps that are required are in the realm of economics, not criminal system. The economic system needs the underclass. The underclass get alienated and rejects societal standards of behavior. That’s what needs to be addressed, not juries and judges.&quot;  I cannot believe anyone can say somthing so utterly without sense or utility. But it is an all too inevitable outcome of the reductionism and determinism that has gone before.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Charlie, the steps that are required are in the realm of economics, not criminal system. The economic system needs the underclass. The underclass get alienated and rejects societal standards of behavior. That&#8217;s what needs to be addressed, not juries and judges.&#8221;  I cannot believe anyone can say somthing so utterly without sense or utility. But it is an all too inevitable outcome of the reductionism and determinism that has gone before.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118375</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Nov 2005 00:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118375</guid>
		<description>Slocum, I am skeptical of your assertion that social capital and living conditions in &lt;em&gt; most&lt;/em&gt; inner cities are increasing.  Is this true near where you live?  Are conditions in Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Pontiac, et al. improving?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, I am skeptical of your assertion that social capital and living conditions in <em> most</em> inner cities are increasing.  Is this true near where you live?  Are conditions in Detroit, Flint, Saginaw, Pontiac, et al. improving?</p>
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		<title>By: roger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118360</link>
		<dc:creator>roger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 20:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118360</guid>
		<description>Slocum, your New York example is a good example --but not of what you think. Compared to the rest of the country, the slowdown in crime in New York was accompanied by the third smallest increase in incarceration in the country. This is from the Public Policy Institute&#039;s report in 2000 comparing New York and the highest incarcerator, Texas:

&quot;During the 1990s, Texas added more prisoners to its prison system (+98,081) than New York&#039;s entire prison population (73,233) by some 24,848 prisoners. This means that the number of prisoners that Texas added during the 1990s was 34% higher than New York&#039;s entire prison population. While Texas had the fastest growing prison system in the country during the 1990s, New York had the third slowest growing prison population in the US. Over all, during the 1990s, Texas added five times as many prisoners as New York did (18,001). Yet since 1995, the study found that the percentage decline in New York&#039;s crime index was four times greater than Texas&#039; percentage decline in crime and New York&#039;s crime rate dropped at twice the rate of the Lone Star State. Texas&#039; current incarceration rate (1,035 per 100,000) is 80% higher than New York&#039;s (574 per 100,000), yet Texas&#039; crime rate (5,111 per 100,000) is 30% higher than New York&#039;s (3,588 per 100,000). In 1998, Texas&#039; murder rate was 25% higher than New York State&#039;s rate.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum, your New York example is a good example&#8212;but not of what you think. Compared to the rest of the country, the slowdown in crime in New York was accompanied by the third smallest increase in incarceration in the country. This is from the Public Policy Institute&#8217;s report in 2000 comparing New York and the highest incarcerator, Texas:</p>

	<p>&#8220;During the 1990s, Texas added more prisoners to its prison system (+98,081) than New York&#8217;s entire prison population (73,233) by some 24,848 prisoners. This means that the number of prisoners that Texas added during the 1990s was 34% higher than New York&#8217;s entire prison population. While Texas had the fastest growing prison system in the country during the 1990s, New York had the third slowest growing prison population in the US. Over all, during the 1990s, Texas added five times as many prisoners as New York did (18,001). Yet since 1995, the study found that the percentage decline in New York&#8217;s crime index was four times greater than Texas&#8217; percentage decline in crime and New York&#8217;s crime rate dropped at twice the rate of the Lone Star State. Texas&#8217; current incarceration rate (1,035 per 100,000) is 80% higher than New York&#8217;s (574 per 100,000), yet Texas&#8217; crime rate (5,111 per 100,000) is 30% higher than New York&#8217;s (3,588 per 100,000). In 1998, Texas&#8217; murder rate was 25% higher than New York State&#8217;s rate.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Sebastian Holsclaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118355</link>
		<dc:creator>Sebastian Holsclaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 19:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118355</guid>
		<description>&quot;comprehensive state by state reconsideration of maximum penalties in the light of a reevaluation of the purpose and goals of incarceration&quot;

The problem is that you don&#039;t have anything near a consensus about what the &quot;purpose and goals of incarceration&quot; are.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;comprehensive state by state reconsideration of maximum penalties in the light of a reevaluation of the purpose and goals of incarceration&#8221;</p>

	<p>The problem is that you don&#8217;t have anything near a consensus about what the &#8220;purpose and goals of incarceration&#8221; are.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118241</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 13:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118241</guid>
		<description>Charlie, the steps that are required are in the realm of economics, not criminal system. The economic system needs the underclass. The underclass get alienated and rejects societal standards of behavior. That&#039;s what needs to be addressed, not juries and judges.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Charlie, the steps that are required are in the realm of economics, not criminal system. The economic system needs the underclass. The underclass get alienated and rejects societal standards of behavior. That&#8217;s what needs to be addressed, not juries and judges.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118224</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118224</guid>
		<description>#15 is another set of statistics. I am not aware that I had railed against moral relativism, but if I did, I cannot see how that would contradict an emphasis on the factual reality of local determination of criminal systems in the USA. But I guess I was implicitly suggesting that if the prison population of the USA is deemed too large, then what steps are required, and could be envisaged, that would in the future reduce it? I could suggest some of the following alone, or in combination (though I personally would not be in favour of them): (a) taking away from juries their sentencing powers and reassigning them to judges; (b) ending the election of judges and substituting a system like that of the UK; (c) removing the power of legislatures to pass mandatory sentencing regimes; (d) removing the power of legislatures to pass repeat offender laws (like California&#039;s so-called &quot;three strike&quot; law); (e) comprehensive state by state reconsideration of maximum penalties in the light of a reevaluation of the purpose and goals of incarceration; (f) removal of the rights of victims to address courts at the sentencing stage; (g) requirement that multiple sentences should always run concurrentlt; (h) much more lenient parole regulations; (i) paying much less attention to the views of crime victims. Which of these would you go for (forgetting how you might achieve such changes for the moment).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#15 is another set of statistics. I am not aware that I had railed against moral relativism, but if I did, I cannot see how that would contradict an emphasis on the factual reality of local determination of criminal systems in the <span class="caps">USA</span>. But I guess I was implicitly suggesting that if the prison population of the <span class="caps">USA</span> is deemed too large, then what steps are required, and could be envisaged, that would in the future reduce it? I could suggest some of the following alone, or in combination (though I personally would not be in favour of them): (a) taking away from juries their sentencing powers and reassigning them to judges; (b) ending the election of judges and substituting a system like that of the UK; (c) removing the power of legislatures to pass mandatory sentencing regimes; (d) removing the power of legislatures to pass repeat offender laws (like California&#8217;s so-called &#8220;three strike&#8221; law); (e) comprehensive state by state reconsideration of maximum penalties in the light of a reevaluation of the purpose and goals of incarceration; (f) removal of the rights of victims to address courts at the sentencing stage; (g) requirement that multiple sentences should always run concurrentlt; (h) much more lenient parole regulations; (i) paying much less attention to the views of crime victims. Which of these would you go for (forgetting how you might achieve such changes for the moment).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118222</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:37:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118222</guid>
		<description>Ah, one think I love about US conservatives and their British apologists like Charlie is that they rail against &quot;moral relativism&quot; but then plead the importance of local history, tradition and context when it suits them.

As for &quot;failing to connect with the reality of the US prison system&quot;, I refer you to Kieran&#039;s comment (#15) and the links contained therein.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, one think I love about US conservatives and their British apologists like Charlie is that they rail against &#8220;moral relativism&#8221; but then plead the importance of local history, tradition and context when it suits them.</p>

	<p>As for &#8220;failing to connect with the reality of the US prison system&#8221;, I refer you to Kieran&#8217;s comment (#15) and the links contained therein.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118219</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 10:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118219</guid>
		<description>And that&#039;s all it is. A number. The US Federal departments produce a lot of them - often for no apparent good reason (though usually in connection with budgeting for federal functions and calculation of state allocations as a portion of a fixed whole). Any understanding of the significance of the number must begin with looking at the nature and histories of individual state judicial systems. It is rarely a pretty story, but then criminality isn&#039;t very nice. It is important to consider the roles of legislative involvement with sentencing tariffs, election of judges, and powers of juries, against a background of specific and localised understanding of concepts like justice, proportionality, and victim rights. This needs to be informed by appreciation of how specific outcomes (including the use of the death penalty) are fashioned by complex interaction between popular will and constitutional provisions, as frequently interpreted by the highest state and federal courts. I simply don&#039;t think any of the comments in this thread begin to connect with the reality of the US prison system, and the speculative sociology based on simple sums and liberal sensibilities is worthless. I would take from the kind of analysis I propose a conviction than we jail far too few criminals here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And that&#8217;s all it is. A number. The <span class="caps">US </span>Federal departments produce a lot of them &#8211; often for no apparent good reason (though usually in connection with budgeting for federal functions and calculation of state allocations as a portion of a fixed whole). Any understanding of the significance of the number must begin with looking at the nature and histories of individual state judicial systems. It is rarely a pretty story, but then criminality isn&#8217;t very nice. It is important to consider the roles of legislative involvement with sentencing tariffs, election of judges, and powers of juries, against a background of specific and localised understanding of concepts like justice, proportionality, and victim rights. This needs to be informed by appreciation of how specific outcomes (including the use of the death penalty) are fashioned by complex interaction between popular will and constitutional provisions, as frequently interpreted by the highest state and federal courts. I simply don&#8217;t think any of the comments in this thread begin to connect with the reality of the US prison system, and the speculative sociology based on simple sums and liberal sensibilities is worthless. I would take from the kind of analysis I propose a conviction than we jail far too few criminals here.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118214</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 08:44:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118214</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Nobody seems to have (or want to bring into play) an informed understanding of federalism – the prison population in the US is the total of the prison populatiuons of 50 separate judicial systems.&lt;/i&gt;

Well we do bring into play an informed understanding of _addition_ . When you add those numbers up -- as the US Department of Justice (and not us crazed pinkos at CT) did --  you get another number, and it is a very large one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Nobody seems to have (or want to bring into play) an informed understanding of federalism &#8211; the prison population in the US is the total of the prison populatiuons of 50 separate judicial systems.</i></p>

	<p>Well we do bring into play an informed understanding of <em>addition</em> . When you add those numbers up&#8212;as the <span class="caps">US </span>Department of Justice (and not us crazed pinkos at CT) did&#8212; you get another number, and it is a very large one.</p>
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		<title>By: rollo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118213</link>
		<dc:creator>rollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Nov 2005 07:52:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118213</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;i&gt;&quot;the idea of eight days of riots in a Mexican American neighborhood in America is pretty inconceivable&quot;&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.suavecito.com/history.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Orale.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><blockquote><i>&#8220;the idea of eight days of riots in a Mexican American neighborhood in America is pretty inconceivable&#8221;</i></blockquote><br />
<a href="http://www.suavecito.com/history.htm" rel="nofollow">Orale.</a></p>
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		<title>By: Slocum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118077</link>
		<dc:creator>Slocum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118077</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I cannot see how rising incarceration has a positive effect on social capital in inner-city neighborhoods.&lt;/i&gt;

Nor can I.  But it is clear that the stocks of social capital in inner-city neighborhoods have improved even while incarceration rates have risen.  Inner-city neighborhoods were not only generators of crime and associated disorder but principal victims.  The changes in the New York crime rate that have occured since the early 90&#039;s have made inner-city neighborhoods far more livable than they were.

So, yes, incarceration rates are a big problem, but they haven&#039;t not resulted in a vicious cycle that has made inner-city neighborhoods worse off--in most American cities they are better off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I cannot see how rising incarceration has a positive effect on social capital in inner-city neighborhoods.</i></p>

	<p>Nor can I.  But it is clear that the stocks of social capital in inner-city neighborhoods have improved even while incarceration rates have risen.  Inner-city neighborhoods were not only generators of crime and associated disorder but principal victims.  The changes in the New York crime rate that have occured since the early 90&#8217;s have made inner-city neighborhoods far more livable than they were.</p>

	<p>So, yes, incarceration rates are a big problem, but they haven&#8217;t not resulted in a vicious cycle that has made inner-city neighborhoods worse off&#8212;in most American cities they are better off.</p>
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		<title>By: Charlie B.</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-118073</link>
		<dc:creator>Charlie B.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 23:23:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-118073</guid>
		<description>It is interesting to read this thread for the assumptions people make. Nobody seems to have (or want to bring into play) an informed understanding of federalism - the prison population in the US is the total of the prison populatiuons of 50 separate judicial systems. Each of those systems has different characteristics, and, very importantly, different histories. They also have many other non-custodial features that need to be set alongside their use of prison. All the rhetoric and pseudo-sociological outrage above really mean nothing.Incarceration has costs for individuals, for their families, and for everyone through tax. It is possible to say they are appropriate to be paid, and for those arguments to be endorsed democratically. British people might be seen as simply unwilling to pay the collective cost of constructing jails to hold the people they wish to see sentenced - hence the absurd argument for shorter and non-custodial sentences because we have no prison space - not because those are appropriate sentences.I can imagine what the reaction might be to the suggestion but I shall make it nevertheless - in Britain we jail far too few of our criminals, and the cost is paid by those who have been the victims of crime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It is interesting to read this thread for the assumptions people make. Nobody seems to have (or want to bring into play) an informed understanding of federalism &#8211; the prison population in the US is the total of the prison populatiuons of 50 separate judicial systems. Each of those systems has different characteristics, and, very importantly, different histories. They also have many other non-custodial features that need to be set alongside their use of prison. All the rhetoric and pseudo-sociological outrage above really mean nothing.Incarceration has costs for individuals, for their families, and for everyone through tax. It is possible to say they are appropriate to be paid, and for those arguments to be endorsed democratically. British people might be seen as simply unwilling to pay the collective cost of constructing jails to hold the people they wish to see sentenced &#8211; hence the absurd argument for shorter and non-custodial sentences because we have no prison space &#8211; not because those are appropriate sentences.I can imagine what the reaction might be to the suggestion but I shall make it nevertheless &#8211; in Britain we jail far too few of our criminals, and the cost is paid by those who have been the victims of crime.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter H</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-117990</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter H</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 20:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-117990</guid>
		<description>Slocum,

Personally, I see America&#039;s incarceration explosion as a major social problem in itself.  It has tremendous human costs, not only for the individuals incarcerated, but also for those connected to them (e.g. children who suffer the incarceration of a parent) and the communities in which they live in.  I cannot see how rising incarceration has a positive effect on social capital in inner-city neighborhoods.  

Joshua Burton&#039;s comment about prison time becoming a badge of honor in certain subcultures is very interesting.  I can think of other    unintended consequences of incarceration.  For example, it is likely that the more friends and family you have in prison, the less frightening of a place prison becomes, and the less of a stigma is associated with going to jail.  Thus, the increase in incarceration may, in the long run, reduce the deterrent effect of incarceration.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slocum,</p>

	<p>Personally, I see America&#8217;s incarceration explosion as a major social problem in itself.  It has tremendous human costs, not only for the individuals incarcerated, but also for those connected to them (e.g. children who suffer the incarceration of a parent) and the communities in which they live in.  I cannot see how rising incarceration has a positive effect on social capital in inner-city neighborhoods.</p>

	<p>Joshua Burton&#8217;s comment about prison time becoming a badge of honor in certain subcultures is very interesting.  I can think of other    unintended consequences of incarceration.  For example, it is likely that the more friends and family you have in prison, the less frightening of a place prison becomes, and the less of a stigma is associated with going to jail.  Thus, the increase in incarceration may, in the long run, reduce the deterrent effect of incarceration.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/comment-page-3/#comment-117903</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Nov 2005 16:01:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/03/land-of-the-free-2/#comment-117903</guid>
		<description>Indeed. The deaths of the two teenagers in the electricity sub-station which started the French riots are the only ones so far.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Indeed. The deaths of the two teenagers in the electricity sub-station which started the French riots are the only ones so far.</p>
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