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	<title>Comments on: Self-plagiarism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: sfrefugee</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122941</link>
		<dc:creator>sfrefugee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Nov 2005 19:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122941</guid>
		<description>BS.

There is no such thing as splat.  If it is your writing and your ideas - re-furbrishing, re-publishing, massaging, changing etc. are your right for having done the original work/idea/data collection in the first place.  See, e.g. mickey mouse.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>BS.</p>

	<p>There is no such thing as splat.  If it is your writing and your ideas &#8211; re-furbrishing, re-publishing, massaging, changing etc. are your right for having done the original work/idea/data collection in the first place.  See, e.g. mickey mouse.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Davis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122590</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:39:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122590</guid>
		<description>Follow-up: Lelia Green points out that self-citation defeats the semi-fiction of blind peer review and raises the possibility of Google-bombing (or its academic equivalent). However, full-text journal search for a &quot;hmm, that sounds familiar&quot; passage would unveil the author just about as easily as an explicit link, and I believe citation index rankings are already getting smart about weighting self-citations lower, much as Google pays less attention to self-linking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Follow-up: Lelia Green points out that self-citation defeats the semi-fiction of blind peer review and raises the possibility of Google-bombing (or its academic equivalent). However, full-text journal search for a &#8220;hmm, that sounds familiar&#8221; passage would unveil the author just about as easily as an explicit link, and I believe citation index rankings are already getting smart about weighting self-citations lower, much as Google pays less attention to self-linking.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Davis</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122575</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Nov 2005 19:26:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122575</guid>
		<description>After the distribution-to-cost ratio and its sheer immediacy, this is the main reason I moved to web publishing and one of the main reasons I&#039;d like to see more academics move to web publishing. I write short pieces that are all somewhat connected but I loathe repeating myself. Behold the power of the URL! Don&#039;t copy, somewhat revise, and re-publish a previous proof, a previous study, or the first third of your think piece on Donald Rumsfeld&#039;s relationship with Sammy Davis Jr. -- just link to it and move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>After the distribution-to-cost ratio and its sheer immediacy, this is the main reason I moved to web publishing and one of the main reasons I&#8217;d like to see more academics move to web publishing. I write short pieces that are all somewhat connected but I loathe repeating myself. Behold the power of the <span class="caps">URL</span>! Don&#8217;t copy, somewhat revise, and re-publish a previous proof, a previous study, or the first third of your think piece on Donald Rumsfeld&#8217;s relationship with Sammy Davis Jr.&#8212;just link to it and move on.</p>
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		<title>By: Zephania</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122270</link>
		<dc:creator>Zephania</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 22:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122270</guid>
		<description>One open source model is ... publisher pays.

Is this a strong argument for this model?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One open source model is &#8230; publisher pays.</p>

	<p>Is this a strong argument for this model?</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122260</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:53:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122260</guid>
		<description>I have to admit I have occasionally found splat to be a pleasant surprise--I was thinking I would have to read a whole paper, and as it turns out, only the last half-page of it contains any new information at all.

As regards the exposure comments, I have the impression that in physics now, journal publishing is nearly an afterthought with respect to actual work--needed for promotion decisions, but for nothing else.  Everything important gets communicated via preprints.  I&#039;m not a physicist, though--this is just what I heard.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I have to admit I have occasionally found splat to be a pleasant surprise&#8212;I was thinking I would have to read a whole paper, and as it turns out, only the last half-page of it contains any new information at all.</p>

	<p>As regards the exposure comments, I have the impression that in physics now, journal publishing is nearly an afterthought with respect to actual work&#8212;needed for promotion decisions, but for nothing else.  Everything important gets communicated via preprints.  I&#8217;m not a physicist, though&#8212;this is just what I heard.</p>
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		<title>By: kaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122257</link>
		<dc:creator>kaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:39:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122257</guid>
		<description>Often, I self-plagiarize.

(ad nauseum.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Often, I self-plagiarize.</p>

	<p>(ad nauseum.)</p>
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		<title>By: kaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122256</link>
		<dc:creator>kaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:38:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122256</guid>
		<description>I often self plagiarize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I often self plagiarize.</p>
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		<title>By: kaw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122255</link>
		<dc:creator>kaw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122255</guid>
		<description>I self-plagiarize all the time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I self-plagiarize all the time.</p>
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		<title>By: agm</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122109</link>
		<dc:creator>agm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 09:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122109</guid>
		<description>I think that a new write up of the same work, comingled with new work, makes it a sufficiently nuanced issue, that it isn&#039;t necessarily plagiarism in many of the cases being discussed. In my field, &quot;in Russian, in a Soviet journal&quot; is a real possibility. If Landau did something, and I would find that result terribly useful, but no one&#039;s translated it, it might just be that it got rehashed as part of another paper, which did get translated and saves my bacon. Very quickly it becomes very problematic to claim that every accomplishment should have its 15 minutes of journal time once and only once, when it might be needed 20 or 100 years later, in a different language, by people who are not initiates into the lingua franca that prevailed at the time of original publication. To me, this last is actually the best defense against charges of self-plagiarism. On a road trip this summer I learned that my boss, who got her PhD 30-odd years ago, doesn&#039;t seem to have internalized that fluid dynamics is no longer a part of physics -- it was left to the engineers and other non-physicists well before I was born. She and her contemporaries often seem to forget that we don&#039;t necessarily know the things they knew at the same point in their education. (On the other hand, she knows crap all about nanotech, so I&#039;ll call it square.)

What we need is a better definition of self-plagiarism, but this is very difficult to do because it requires some tough calls with not enough information about what others, let alone posterity, will eventually find useful. Though, given that eventually all journals will be online for the sake of space, delay time, and expense, this will become less of an issue.

Plus, it&#039;s like saying that you only get to do one version of the Aristocrats...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think that a new write up of the same work, comingled with new work, makes it a sufficiently nuanced issue, that it isn&#8217;t necessarily plagiarism in many of the cases being discussed. In my field, &#8220;in Russian, in a Soviet journal&#8221; is a real possibility. If Landau did something, and I would find that result terribly useful, but no one&#8217;s translated it, it might just be that it got rehashed as part of another paper, which did get translated and saves my bacon. Very quickly it becomes very problematic to claim that every accomplishment should have its 15 minutes of journal time once and only once, when it might be needed 20 or 100 years later, in a different language, by people who are not initiates into the lingua franca that prevailed at the time of original publication. To me, this last is actually the best defense against charges of self-plagiarism. On a road trip this summer I learned that my boss, who got her PhD 30-odd years ago, doesn&#8217;t seem to have internalized that fluid dynamics is no longer a part of physics&#8212;it was left to the engineers and other non-physicists well before I was born. She and her contemporaries often seem to forget that we don&#8217;t necessarily know the things they knew at the same point in their education. (On the other hand, she knows crap all about nanotech, so I&#8217;ll call it square.)</p>

	<p>What we need is a better definition of self-plagiarism, but this is very difficult to do because it requires some tough calls with not enough information about what others, let alone posterity, will eventually find useful. Though, given that eventually all journals will be online for the sake of space, delay time, and expense, this will become less of an issue.</p>

	<p>Plus, it&#8217;s like saying that you only get to do one version of the Aristocrats&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kenny Easwaran</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122026</link>
		<dc:creator>Kenny Easwaran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122026</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been surprised recently reading some important books in philosophy of mathematics from the last ten years or so, just what large sections of these books were once papers by the same author, with few changes.  However, in many cases this is a good thing - it&#039;s useful to have separate articles that pursue each point independently, and it&#039;s also useful to have a larger unit that ties them together and gives you a good idea of what the author was thinking about in that time span.

But in response to Paul Gowder in #17, I think that the idea is that both splat and &quot;real&quot; plagiarism harm the discipline almost equally.  In both cases, work is duplicated and journal space is taken up that could go to other interesting ideas.  In the case of &quot;real&quot; plagiarism, there&#039;s the extra issue of credit and career building, while with self-plagiarism there&#039;s at least no victim of that sort.  But if the general ethical imperative of academic publishing is to let the world know about new ideas that you have, then both forms of plagiarism are violations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve been surprised recently reading some important books in philosophy of mathematics from the last ten years or so, just what large sections of these books were once papers by the same author, with few changes.  However, in many cases this is a good thing &#8211; it&#8217;s useful to have separate articles that pursue each point independently, and it&#8217;s also useful to have a larger unit that ties them together and gives you a good idea of what the author was thinking about in that time span.</p>

	<p>But in response to Paul Gowder in #17, I think that the idea is that both splat and &#8220;real&#8221; plagiarism harm the discipline almost equally.  In both cases, work is duplicated and journal space is taken up that could go to other interesting ideas.  In the case of &#8220;real&#8221; plagiarism, there&#8217;s the extra issue of credit and career building, while with self-plagiarism there&#8217;s at least no victim of that sort.  But if the general ethical imperative of academic publishing is to let the world know about new ideas that you have, then both forms of plagiarism are violations.</p>
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		<title>By: ArC</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122024</link>
		<dc:creator>ArC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 06:55:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122024</guid>
		<description>The Guinness ad affair is one of my favourite running jokes here, or probably anywhere on blogs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Guinness ad affair is one of my favourite running jokes here, or probably anywhere on blogs.</p>
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		<title>By: sennoma</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122013</link>
		<dc:creator>sennoma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 02:37:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122013</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Not while Impact factors hold sway they won’t.&lt;/i&gt;

Probably true, but as open access gains traction and online archiving/searching keeps improving, I think impact factors will lose a lot of their power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Not while Impact factors hold sway they won&#8217;t.</i></p>

	<p>Probably true, but as open access gains traction and online archiving/searching keeps improving, I think impact factors will lose a lot of their power.</p>
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		<title>By: david tiley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122011</link>
		<dc:creator>david tiley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2005 01:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122011</guid>
		<description>From memory, Jack Higgins was caught reusing chapters from his own work again in subsequent novels. It only came up because he changed publishers and the old ones pointed out they owned the rights to the new chapters.

Now that is genuine self-plagiarism because it is deliberately deceptive, and passes something off to the reader. 

In the cases which you find distasteful, the academics here are gaming the system, but it is fraud rather than plagiarism - trying to create a false CV with inflated publications. 

Mind you, it could also just be narcissism.

I think this is the reference for the HIggins stuff, though its not on the net and I&#039;m not at a library: Steinhauer, Yvette, Jack Higgins: If He’s Said It Once, He’s Said It a Thousand Times’, Age Good Weekend, 24 June 1988, 51–55.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From memory, Jack Higgins was caught reusing chapters from his own work again in subsequent novels. It only came up because he changed publishers and the old ones pointed out they owned the rights to the new chapters.</p>

	<p>Now that is genuine self-plagiarism because it is deliberately deceptive, and passes something off to the reader.</p>

	<p>In the cases which you find distasteful, the academics here are gaming the system, but it is fraud rather than plagiarism &#8211; trying to create a false CV with inflated publications.</p>

	<p>Mind you, it could also just be narcissism.</p>

	<p>I think this is the reference for the HIggins stuff, though its not on the net and I&#8217;m not at a library: Steinhauer, Yvette, Jack Higgins: If He&#8217;s Said It Once, He&#8217;s Said It a Thousand Times&#8217;, Age Good Weekend, 24 June 1988, 51&#8211;55.</p>
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		<title>By: Anthony</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122004</link>
		<dc:creator>Anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122004</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Increasingly, though, important ideas are going to be aired first in newer media like blogs, before being refined into journal articles.&lt;/em&gt;

Not while Impact factors hold sway they won&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Increasingly, though, important ideas are going to be aired first in newer media like blogs, before being refined into journal articles.</em></p>

	<p>Not while Impact factors hold sway they won&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Daws</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/comment-page-1/#comment-122002</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Daws</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Nov 2005 23:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/16/self-plagiarism/#comment-122002</guid>
		<description>Slightly off-topic, but here&#039;s a vote for keeping &quot;boilerplate&quot; stuff firmly in papers.  I&#039;m also a mathematician (as #1), and my current pet hate is authors who do one of the following:

i) Write &quot;It is well-known that...&quot; as an excuse not to give a reference.  Well, it&#039;s not well-known to me, now that I&#039;m reading your paper 20 years later.  If it&#039;s really &quot;well-known&quot; then surely there must be a good reference?

ii) Write &quot;The following has a short proof, see&quot; and then gives a reference to a paper in Russian in some obscure Japanese journal (okay, I exagerate).  If it&#039;s a short proof, and the best reference is really obscure, then would it really hurt to give the proof (obviously noting that it&#039;s not original)?

I guess it comes down to if you view papers as giving very technial, incremental additions of knowledge (in which case maybe background isn&#039;t needed) or if papers should be more self-contained, widely read pieces of work.  I tend towards the latter view: many papers in maths are more important (IMHO) for the techniques they demonstrate than the actual results they prove: anything to improve readability, and to give a guide as to where this work is coming from, can only be a good thing.

I do wonder, however, if journals perhaps don&#039;t help in their quest for short papers.  I feel a bit of pressure to put a single solid result in a paper and send it off, even if I might really have a result and a half.  This keeps the paper shorter, and the hope is that I can work the half-a-result into a full result, and publish it later...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Slightly off-topic, but here&#8217;s a vote for keeping &#8220;boilerplate&#8221; stuff firmly in papers.  I&#8217;m also a mathematician (as #1), and my current pet hate is authors who do one of the following:</p>

	<p>i) Write &#8220;It is well-known that&#8230;&#8221; as an excuse not to give a reference.  Well, it&#8217;s not well-known to me, now that I&#8217;m reading your paper 20 years later.  If it&#8217;s really &#8220;well-known&#8221; then surely there must be a good reference?</p>

	<p>ii) Write &#8220;The following has a short proof, see&#8221; and then gives a reference to a paper in Russian in some obscure Japanese journal (okay, I exagerate).  If it&#8217;s a short proof, and the best reference is really obscure, then would it really hurt to give the proof (obviously noting that it&#8217;s not original)?</p>

	<p>I guess it comes down to if you view papers as giving very technial, incremental additions of knowledge (in which case maybe background isn&#8217;t needed) or if papers should be more self-contained, widely read pieces of work.  I tend towards the latter view: many papers in maths are more important (IMHO) for the techniques they demonstrate than the actual results they prove: anything to improve readability, and to give a guide as to where this work is coming from, can only be a good thing.</p>

	<p>I do wonder, however, if journals perhaps don&#8217;t help in their quest for short papers.  I feel a bit of pressure to put a single solid result in a paper and send it off, even if I might really have a result and a half.  This keeps the paper shorter, and the hope is that I can work the half-a-result into a full result, and publish it later&#8230;</p>
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