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	<title>Comments on: Controversial Writing Assignment</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125870</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 23:40:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125870</guid>
		<description>In response to post #31:  The US politic is not anti-intellectual.  What is being displayed is a conflict between those with mostly educational knowledge vs. those with mostly practical experience.  Currently the views of those with “real world” success in a specific area are given more weight.  This division is best summed up by an American cliché.  “Those that can, do.  Those that can’t, teach”.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In response to post #31:  The US politic is not anti-intellectual.  What is being displayed is a conflict between those with mostly educational knowledge vs. those with mostly practical experience.  Currently the views of those with &#8220;real world&#8221; success in a specific area are given more weight.  This division is best summed up by an American clich&#233;.  &#8220;Those that can, do.  Those that can&#8217;t, teach&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125709</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 12:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125709</guid>
		<description>Rather higher than 10% in the country where that teacher works, I expect...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Rather higher than 10% in the country where that teacher works, I expect&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125703</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 11:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125703</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Brett, I am delusional, me and 90% of the world. You and the rest 10% are sane.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, Brett, I am delusional, me and 90% of the world. You and the rest 10% are sane.</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125693</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 06:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125693</guid>
		<description>&quot;Children are exceptionally gullible beings. The appropriate way to handle that is to teach them to think critically, then expose them to a wide variety of opinions.&quot;

No Santa Claus in your house, I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Children are exceptionally gullible beings. The appropriate way to handle that is to teach them to think critically, then expose them to a wide variety of opinions.&#8221;</p>

	<p>No Santa Claus in your house, I guess.</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125692</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 05:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125692</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m looking forward to it, Harry; my intuition is that I&#039;ll probably agree pretty strongly, but I can&#039;t quite see the way to answer y81&#039;s questions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m looking forward to it, Harry; my intuition is that I&#8217;ll probably agree pretty strongly, but I can&#8217;t quite see the way to answer y81&#8217;s questions.</p>
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		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125673</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:46:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125673</guid>
		<description>y81 and a -- I&#039;m afraid I&#039;m going to make a move I often do, and promise a proper post on the subject when I&#039;m ready -- I do promise that I&#039;ll do so using y81&#039;s questions as a framework, but its going to take me awhile to get round to it (just because of pressure of work, and my own vain desire to write it right, as it were).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>y81 and a&#8212;I&#8217;m afraid I&#8217;m going to make a move I often do, and promise a proper post on the subject when I&#8217;m ready&#8212;I do promise that I&#8217;ll do so using y81&#8217;s questions as a framework, but its going to take me awhile to get round to it (just because of pressure of work, and my own vain desire to write it right, as it were).</p>
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		<title>By: y81</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125672</link>
		<dc:creator>y81</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:31:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125672</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really intrigued by the idea that it is wrong for parents to indoctrinate their children into their political and religious views.  How would that work?  Would you just smile blandly when the child hits you, hits his younger sister, tells the little black child in the playground to get out, because only white people are allowed in the sandbox etc.  Or is there some distinction being drawn here between moral versus political and religious views?  Because that distinction will require a lot of work to defend.

Of course, there are some other answers.  One could discipline the child without reference to right and wrong, I suppose, simply stating that this or that conduct annoys me, and that I am the (arbitrary and despotic) ruler of (your) universe.  I would like to meet the person with the personality that could pull that off.  Maybe there are some other answers I&#039;m not thinking of right off.

Really, I don&#039;t mean to be argumentative.  I&#039;d like to see the idea explained and fleshed out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m really intrigued by the idea that it is wrong for parents to indoctrinate their children into their political and religious views.  How would that work?  Would you just smile blandly when the child hits you, hits his younger sister, tells the little black child in the playground to get out, because only white people are allowed in the sandbox etc.  Or is there some distinction being drawn here between moral versus political and religious views?  Because that distinction will require a lot of work to defend.</p>

	<p>Of course, there are some other answers.  One could discipline the child without reference to right and wrong, I suppose, simply stating that this or that conduct annoys me, and that I am the (arbitrary and despotic) ruler of (your) universe.  I would like to meet the person with the personality that could pull that off.  Maybe there are some other answers I&#8217;m not thinking of right off.</p>

	<p>Really, I don&#8217;t mean to be argumentative.  I&#8217;d like to see the idea explained and fleshed out.</p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125667</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:46:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125667</guid>
		<description>But the purpose of a public education system is to indoctrinate.  Otherwise schools would be private businesses, or charities or whatever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But the purpose of a public education system is to indoctrinate.  Otherwise schools would be private businesses, or charities or whatever.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125666</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 00:36:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125666</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Advocating for ending this war doesn’t seem any more controversial than, say, writing letters against slavery in Sudan.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Are you actually delusional enough to believe that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;Advocating for ending this war doesn&#8217;t seem any more controversial than, say, writing letters against slavery in Sudan.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Are you actually delusional enough to believe that?</p>
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		<title>By: Maynard Handley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125659</link>
		<dc:creator>Maynard Handley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125659</guid>
		<description>&quot;
What? It’s wrong for parents to teach their political and religious values to their children?
&quot;

How does this teaching proceed? If it consists of &quot;We are xyz party people, right or wrong&quot; or &quot;God said this, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar&quot;, then damn straight it&#039;s wrong. The fact that most of the world does it doesn&#039;t change that. 
Children are exceptionally gullible beings. The appropriate way to handle that is to teach them to think critically, then expose them to a wide variety of opinions. There are precious few political and religious indoctrinations that work that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8221;<br />
What? It&#8217;s wrong for parents to teach their political and religious values to their children?<br />
&#8221;</p>

	<p>How does this teaching proceed? If it consists of &#8220;We are xyz party people, right or wrong&#8221; or &#8220;God said this, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar&#8221;, then damn straight it&#8217;s wrong. The fact that most of the world does it doesn&#8217;t change that.<br />
Children are exceptionally gullible beings. The appropriate way to handle that is to teach them to think critically, then expose them to a wide variety of opinions. There are precious few political and religious indoctrinations that work that way.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125654</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125654</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no complexity in the Iraq war. Nor in Hiroshima. 

Talk about  Orwellian.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s no complexity in the Iraq war. Nor in Hiroshima.</p>

	<p>Talk about  Orwellian.</p>
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		<title>By: alice</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125651</link>
		<dc:creator>alice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125651</guid>
		<description>One problem of &quot;press for peace&quot; is that it is meaningless, except it isn&#039;t just that , it&#039;s meaningful in an Orwellian way.  I doubt if the kids have enough background to evaluate the situation even crudely, but they are being encouraged to feel good if they hold to a sentiment.

That these sentiments are meaningless is shown by the fact that 30 years of &quot;environmental awareness&quot; resulted in bigger houses and vehicles, that they are Orwellian is seen in that many of these seem people thought themselves blameless in that they attacked the sinister forces *really* responsible.   

The right engages in the same sort of nonsense, indeed we have examples of sympathetic magic where the right really believes that ungood thoughts on Iraq, the economy and everything else cause problems.

But all of this is detrimental to the building of mines.

At some point these kids need to see a reality where the awfulness of Dresden and Hiroshima are seen and also the awfulness of the concentration camps, the Japanese invasion of China and all the rest and to see there is no simple answer.

They need to see the beauty of Gandhi and the half million butchered after his death along with King and the riots.

Soul tearing complexity.

Probably not third grade stuff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One problem of &#8220;press for peace&#8221; is that it is meaningless, except it isn&#8217;t just that , it&#8217;s meaningful in an Orwellian way.  I doubt if the kids have enough background to evaluate the situation even crudely, but they are being encouraged to feel good if they hold to a sentiment.</p>

	<p>That these sentiments are meaningless is shown by the fact that 30 years of &#8220;environmental awareness&#8221; resulted in bigger houses and vehicles, that they are Orwellian is seen in that many of these seem people thought themselves blameless in that they attacked the sinister forces <strong>really</strong> responsible.</p>

	<p>The right engages in the same sort of nonsense, indeed we have examples of sympathetic magic where the right really believes that ungood thoughts on Iraq, the economy and everything else cause problems.</p>

	<p>But all of this is detrimental to the building of mines.</p>

	<p>At some point these kids need to see a reality where the awfulness of Dresden and Hiroshima are seen and also the awfulness of the concentration camps, the Japanese invasion of China and all the rest and to see there is no simple answer.</p>

	<p>They need to see the beauty of Gandhi and the half million butchered after his death along with King and the riots.</p>

	<p>Soul tearing complexity.</p>

	<p>Probably not third grade stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Simon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125647</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125647</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;The pledge notwithstanding, the dominant trend in U.S. textbooks is not toward indoctrination but toward bland, PC inoffensiveness.&lt;/em&gt;

....As well it should be.  If the public education system is to retain public support (which it has barely clung to in America in any event, given the powerful strain of anti-intellectualism in the culture), then it must restrict itself to teaching only completely uncontroversial material.  Those who argue otherwise are simply opening the door to an even worse result--a kind of educational cacaphony in which the propagation of nonsense displaces, and ends up swamping, genuine education.  It&#039;s much easier, after all, for parents to supply children with material they&#039;ve missed than to try to disabuse them of falsehoods they&#039;ve unwittingly absorbed. 

Personally, I believe that the theory of evolution is an essential cornerstone of modern biology, and that &quot;intelligent design&quot; and its ilk have no place in a science class.  But I would rather teach my children about evolution myself, with no help from public schools, than have them subjected to ID or similar pseudoscience in the classroom.  Likewise, while I consider an understanding of current events and politics an important part of any child&#039;s education, I&#039;d rather the schools leave current events alone entirely than risk a repeat of the Madison experience in my neighborhood.

Of course, America is the land of the imperial Supreme Court--a place where democracy is something one pays lip service to, while looking for the most effective non-democratic means to shove one&#039;s own will down everyone else&#039;s throat.  It&#039;s not surprising, then, that most people see the school system as a perfectly appropriate vehicle for their own agendas--without stopping to consider what happens if their vehicle gets hijacked by their most feared opponents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>The pledge notwithstanding, the dominant trend in U.S. textbooks is not toward indoctrination but toward bland, PC inoffensiveness.</em></p>

	<p>&#8230;.As well it should be.  If the public education system is to retain public support (which it has barely clung to in America in any event, given the powerful strain of anti-intellectualism in the culture), then it must restrict itself to teaching only completely uncontroversial material.  Those who argue otherwise are simply opening the door to an even worse result&#8212;a kind of educational cacaphony in which the propagation of nonsense displaces, and ends up swamping, genuine education.  It&#8217;s much easier, after all, for parents to supply children with material they&#8217;ve missed than to try to disabuse them of falsehoods they&#8217;ve unwittingly absorbed.</p>

	<p>Personally, I believe that the theory of evolution is an essential cornerstone of modern biology, and that &#8220;intelligent design&#8221; and its ilk have no place in a science class.  But I would rather teach my children about evolution myself, with no help from public schools, than have them subjected to ID or similar pseudoscience in the classroom.  Likewise, while I consider an understanding of current events and politics an important part of any child&#8217;s education, I&#8217;d rather the schools leave current events alone entirely than risk a repeat of the Madison experience in my neighborhood.</p>

	<p>Of course, America is the land of the imperial Supreme Court&#8212;a place where democracy is something one pays lip service to, while looking for the most effective non-democratic means to shove one&#8217;s own will down everyone else&#8217;s throat.  It&#8217;s not surprising, then, that most people see the school system as a perfectly appropriate vehicle for their own agendas&#8212;without stopping to consider what happens if their vehicle gets hijacked by their most feared opponents.</p>
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		<title>By: save_the_rustbelt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125646</link>
		<dc:creator>save_the_rustbelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125646</guid>
		<description>8 years old?

They barely know how to read and write ( and some won&#039;t learn by the time they get to my college class).

Let kids be kids, teach them to read , please!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>8 years old?</p>

	<p>They barely know how to read and write ( and some won&#8217;t learn by the time they get to my college class).</p>

	<p>Let kids be kids, teach them to read , please<img src="!" alt="" border="0" />!</p>
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		<title>By: Tracy W</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/comment-page-1/#comment-125635</link>
		<dc:creator>Tracy W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:27:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/27/controversial-writing-assignment/#comment-125635</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s bad policy advice too.  &quot;Press for peace&quot; is too vague.  Bombing Hiroshima could have been described as &quot;pressing for peace&quot;, as could refusing to declare war on Germany over the invasion of Czechslovakia.  

If you&#039;re going to write letters to various people, recommend something more specific - &quot;withdraw our troops from Iraq&quot; or &quot;send more troops to Iraq&quot;.  

(Of course I think a project expecting kids to engage in a letter-writing campaign over a pre-determined political objective is a very bad assignment regardless of how specific your recommendation is.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s bad policy advice too.  &#8220;Press for peace&#8221; is too vague.  Bombing Hiroshima could have been described as &#8220;pressing for peace&#8221;, as could refusing to declare war on Germany over the invasion of Czechslovakia.</p>

	<p>If you&#8217;re going to write letters to various people, recommend something more specific &#8211; &#8220;withdraw our troops from Iraq&#8221; or &#8220;send more troops to Iraq&#8221;.</p>

	<p>(Of course I think a project expecting kids to engage in a letter-writing campaign over a pre-determined political objective is a very bad assignment regardless of how specific your recommendation is.)</p>
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