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	<title>Comments on: Two Thoughts (About Magic Christians and Two Cities)</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Rich Puchalsky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125891</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Puchalsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 05:10:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125891</guid>
		<description>You know, I might have preferred _John Segundus and Mr. Honeyfoot_.  If you&#039;re going to go Dickens, go Dickens.  Or if you want something more tragic, perhaps the two of them in something loosely like &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086879/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Amadeus&lt;/a&gt;, with Segundus (of course) in the Salieri role, and Honeyfoot visiting his broken friend late in life, and still attempting to cheer him by bungling a charm...  The problem with Strange and Norrell is that it is all too believable that they are merely tools, almost creations, of the Raven King.

Of course, the fact that I can muse in this way about minor characters does indicate that the book really is quite good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You know, I might have preferred <em>John Segundus and Mr. Honeyfoot</em>.  If you&#8217;re going to go Dickens, go Dickens.  Or if you want something more tragic, perhaps the two of them in something loosely like <a href="http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086879/" rel="nofollow">Amadeus</a>, with Segundus (of course) in the Salieri role, and Honeyfoot visiting his broken friend late in life, and still attempting to cheer him by bungling a charm&#8230;  The problem with Strange and Norrell is that it is all too believable that they are merely tools, almost creations, of the Raven King.</p>

	<p>Of course, the fact that I can muse in this way about minor characters does indicate that the book really is quite good.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125884</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 04:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125884</guid>
		<description>I think &lt;i&gt;Lords and Ladies&lt;/i&gt; may be my favourite Discworld book.  I do love Sam Vimes dearly, but Esme Weatherwax is just so damned cool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think <i>Lords and Ladies</i> may be my favourite Discworld book.  I do love Sam Vimes dearly, but Esme Weatherwax is just so damned cool.</p>
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		<title>By: John Holbo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125883</link>
		<dc:creator>John Holbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125883</guid>
		<description>Thanks for comments (and the compliment and the quote and the thought about the quote, Kate). 

adm, I probably should have emphasized this more, but one thing that interests me is just how much like a fairy story &quot;Two Cities&quot; is in terms of its mood and atmosphere. In a way, the comparison with JSMR may shed more light on Dickens than Clarke in that regard. I may be that I got it wrong way round by trying to run it the other way, i.e. emphasizing that Clarke&#039;s faeries are like Jacobins, rather than emphasizing that Dickens&#039; Jacobins are like faeries. I dunno. I think Norrell as Burke is good. I was actually thinking of making a joke about that, continuing my series. Burke&#039;s famous volume, &quot;Reflections on the Revolution in Faerie&quot;. 

As to the Granny Weatherwax/Pross analogy, I was thinking about the dialogue between Granny and the Queen in their final confrontation ... well, I&#039;ll just quote it. (I actually wrote a very baggy/sloppy early version of this post at J&amp;B in which I included it.) 

&quot;Go back,&quot; said Granny. &quot;You call yourself some kind of goddess and you know nothing, madam, nothing. What don&#039;t die can&#039;t live. What don&#039;t live can&#039;t change. What don&#039;t change can&#039;t learn. The smallest creature that dies in the grass knows more than you. You&#039;re right. I&#039;m older. You&#039;ve lived longer than me but I&#039;m older than you. And better&#039;n you. And, madam, that ain&#039;t hard.&quot;

The Queen struck wildly.

The rebounded force of the mental blow knocked Nanny Ogg to her knees. Granny Weatherwax blinked.

&quot;A good one,&quot; she croaked. &quot;But still I stand, and still I&#039;ll not kneel. And still I have strength - &quot;
An elf keeled over. This time the Queen swayed.

&quot;Oh, and I have no time for this,&quot; she said, and snapped her fingers.

There was a pause. The Queen glanced around at her elves.

&quot;They can&#039;t fire,&quot; said Granny. &quot;And you wouldn&#039;t want that, would you? So simple an end?&quot;

&quot;You can&#039;t be holding them! You have not that much power!&quot;

&quot;Do you want to find out how much power I have, madam? Here, on the grass of Lancre?&quot;

So you have again, the old and weak-seeming figure, desperate and on the defense on behalf of others against the DeFarge like villain. The defender is invested with surprising solidity through an invocation/connection with the land. Pross the four-poster English oak; Stephen while the spell is cast. What gets subtracted from Granny (like Stephen) is the comic servility of Pross. 

In all three cases, it&#039;s a nice, sentimental-dramatic device. Makes for a great climax. As with Pross, the Pratchett dialogue is totally over the top. He&#039;s really getting maudlin, too, but I&#039;m sort of a sucker for that in these cases. And the writing. (&quot;An elf keeled over.&quot; If you find yourself writing that sentence, you&#039;ve got to think whether you are getting a bit worked up. But I really love &quot;Lords and Ladies&quot;.) I think it is notable that Clarke, too, really cuts loose in the scene in which the spell is effecting Stephen. There&#039;s nothing Jane Austen-like about that scene, or the writing at that point. But one thing that&#039;s nice about that scene is precisely that it does contrast with the comparative restraint of the drawing room stylistics at the start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks for comments (and the compliment and the quote and the thought about the quote, Kate).</p>

	<p>adm, I probably should have emphasized this more, but one thing that interests me is just how much like a fairy story &#8220;Two Cities&#8221; is in terms of its mood and atmosphere. In a way, the comparison with <span class="caps">JSMR</span> may shed more light on Dickens than Clarke in that regard. I may be that I got it wrong way round by trying to run it the other way, i.e. emphasizing that Clarke&#8217;s faeries are like Jacobins, rather than emphasizing that Dickens&#8217; Jacobins are like faeries. I dunno. I think Norrell as Burke is good. I was actually thinking of making a joke about that, continuing my series. Burke&#8217;s famous volume, &#8220;Reflections on the Revolution in Faerie&#8221;.</p>

	<p>As to the Granny Weatherwax/Pross analogy, I was thinking about the dialogue between Granny and the Queen in their final confrontation &#8230; well, I&#8217;ll just quote it. (I actually wrote a very baggy/sloppy early version of this post at J&#038;B in which I included it.)</p>

	<p>&#8220;Go back,&#8221; said Granny. &#8220;You call yourself some kind of goddess and you know nothing, madam, nothing. What don&#8217;t die can&#8217;t live. What don&#8217;t live can&#8217;t change. What don&#8217;t change can&#8217;t learn. The smallest creature that dies in the grass knows more than you. You&#8217;re right. I&#8217;m older. You&#8217;ve lived longer than me but I&#8217;m older than you. And better&#8217;n you. And, madam, that ain&#8217;t hard.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The Queen struck wildly.</p>

	<p>The rebounded force of the mental blow knocked Nanny Ogg to her knees. Granny Weatherwax blinked.</p>

	<p>&#8220;A good one,&#8221; she croaked. &#8220;But still I stand, and still I&#8217;ll not kneel. And still I have strength &#8211; &#8221;<br />
An elf keeled over. This time the Queen swayed.</p>

	<p>&#8220;Oh, and I have no time for this,&#8221; she said, and snapped her fingers.</p>

	<p>There was a pause. The Queen glanced around at her elves.</p>

	<p>&#8220;They can&#8217;t fire,&#8221; said Granny. &#8220;And you wouldn&#8217;t want that, would you? So simple an end?&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;You can&#8217;t be holding them! You have not that much power!&#8221;</p>

	<p>&#8220;Do you want to find out how much power I have, madam? Here, on the grass of Lancre?&#8221;</p>

	<p>So you have again, the old and weak-seeming figure, desperate and on the defense on behalf of others against the DeFarge like villain. The defender is invested with surprising solidity through an invocation/connection with the land. Pross the four-poster English oak; Stephen while the spell is cast. What gets subtracted from Granny (like Stephen) is the comic servility of Pross.</p>

	<p>In all three cases, it&#8217;s a nice, sentimental-dramatic device. Makes for a great climax. As with Pross, the Pratchett dialogue is totally over the top. He&#8217;s really getting maudlin, too, but I&#8217;m sort of a sucker for that in these cases. And the writing. (&#8220;An elf keeled over.&#8221; If you find yourself writing that sentence, you&#8217;ve got to think whether you are getting a bit worked up. But I really love &#8220;Lords and Ladies&#8221;.) I think it is notable that Clarke, too, really cuts loose in the scene in which the spell is effecting Stephen. There&#8217;s nothing Jane Austen-like about that scene, or the writing at that point. But one thing that&#8217;s nice about that scene is precisely that it does contrast with the comparative restraint of the drawing room stylistics at the start.</p>
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		<title>By: Another Damned Medievalist</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125877</link>
		<dc:creator>Another Damned Medievalist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125877</guid>
		<description>Definitely needing to get through and think on this.  But a couple of thing strike me -- first, I think the novel stands alone quite well, so don&#039;t quite get parts of Clute&#039;s critique.  I do wonder about the fairies/Revolutionaries analogy, though.  Not that it doesn&#039;t work -- it does, expecially in terms of temporal context.  But having brought up Granny Weatherwax, it seems you could also merely conclue that the fairies in Clarke&#039;s world act like fairies.  They aren&#039;t human, they&#039;re capricious, they are often cruel ... in fact, they are just like fairies ought to be, and generally were, till people started romanticising the hell out of them.  

OTOH, I suppose that you could continue your analogy, not in the sense of Dickens, but perhaps more in terms of Norrell&#039;s own rather Burkean reaction to the fairies and more particularly to the magical revolution that John Quiggan implies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Definitely needing to get through and think on this.  But a couple of thing strike me&#8212;first, I think the novel stands alone quite well, so don&#8217;t quite get parts of Clute&#8217;s critique.  I do wonder about the fairies/Revolutionaries analogy, though.  Not that it doesn&#8217;t work&#8212;it does, expecially in terms of temporal context.  But having brought up Granny Weatherwax, it seems you could also merely conclue that the fairies in Clarke&#8217;s world act like fairies.  They aren&#8217;t human, they&#8217;re capricious, they are often cruel &#8230; in fact, they are just like fairies ought to be, and generally were, till people started romanticising the hell out of them.</p>

	<p><span class="caps">OTOH</span>, I suppose that you could continue your analogy, not in the sense of Dickens, but perhaps more in terms of Norrell&#8217;s own rather Burkean reaction to the fairies and more particularly to the magical revolution that John Quiggan implies.</p>
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		<title>By: rcriii</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125830</link>
		<dc:creator>rcriii</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 20:20:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125830</guid>
		<description>How is Granny Weatherwax a &quot;Pross descendant&quot;?  She&#039;s hardly a servant, and certainly not servile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How is Granny Weatherwax a &#8220;Pross descendant&#8221;?  She&#8217;s hardly a servant, and certainly not servile.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Nepveu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125760</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Nepveu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:13:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125760</guid>
		<description>(I forgot to say that I&#039;d previously found your thoughts on servants in the book very helpful and was glad to see them here where I could easily find them again.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>(I forgot to say that I&#8217;d previously found your thoughts on servants in the book very helpful and was glad to see them here where I could easily find them again.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Nepveu</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/two-thoughts-about-magic-christians-and-two-cities/comment-page-1/#comment-125759</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Nepveu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 17:12:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4071#comment-125759</guid>
		<description>John Clute&#039;s entire review seems to me to be warped by his incorrect belief that _JS&amp;NM_ is the first part of a trilogy. 

The most useful description of magic realism I&#039;ve come across was &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.livejournal.com/users/papersky/235958.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jo Walton&#039;s&lt;/a&gt;: &quot;In magic realism it&#039;s the universe producing magically what ought to happen. . . . In magic realism, the numinous is there to illuminate the  other things. In fantasy, the other things are here to illuminate the numinous.&quot;

I would say (and &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2005/09/clarke_jsnm.php&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;have&lt;/a&gt;) that _JS&amp;NM_ is all about illuminating the numinous---and, indeed, about the ways the numinous *can&#039;t* be illuminated---so I would not call it magic realism. (This is another point of disagreement I have with John Clute&#039;s review.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Clute&#8217;s entire review seems to me to be warped by his incorrect belief that <em>JS&#038;NM</em> is the first part of a trilogy.</p>

	<p>The most useful description of magic realism I&#8217;ve come across was <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/papersky/235958.html" rel="nofollow">Jo Walton&#8217;s</a>: &#8220;In magic realism it&#8217;s the universe producing magically what ought to happen. . . . In magic realism, the numinous is there to illuminate the  other things. In fantasy, the other things are here to illuminate the numinous.&#8221;</p>

	<p>I would say (and <a href="http://www.steelypips.org/weblog/2005/09/clarke_jsnm.php" rel="nofollow">have</a>) that <em>JS&#038;NM</em> is all about illuminating the numinous&#8212;-and, indeed, about the ways the numinous <strong>can&#8217;t</strong> be illuminated&#8212;-so I would not call it magic realism. (This is another point of disagreement I have with John Clute&#8217;s review.)</p>
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