Comments on: Who Is The Narrator of Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell, and Where Are The Lady Magicians? http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 19:21:53 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Tera E. http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126054 Tera E. Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:13:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126054 As Chris W. said, "The Ladies of Grace Adieu" does feature powerful women magic-workers--but the problem is that even in that story they are "invisible" to the world of male magicians--even, until the end, to Strange. Clarke's world has them, but if they're invisible they won't necessarily appear in JSAMN. As Chris W. said, “The Ladies of Grace Adieu” does feature powerful women magic-workers—but the problem is that even in that story they are “invisible” to the world of male magicians—even, until the end, to Strange. Clarke’s world has them, but if they’re invisible they won’t necessarily appear in JSAMN.

]]> By: Fishbane http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126051 Fishbane Wed, 30 Nov 2005 21:37:01 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126051 Just another counterexample that proves the rule of sexism in SciFi: Vernor Vinge. Many strong, nuanced women (Peace War, Marooned in Realtime, A Deepness in the Sky, A Fire upon the Deep, Tatja Grimm's World), and in some works, explicit characterization and speculation of economic and social pressures that cause sexism (Marooned in Realtime, A Deepness in the Sky). It is a subtle but persistent theme in his work. Just another counterexample that proves the rule of sexism in SciFi: Vernor Vinge. Many strong, nuanced women (Peace War, Marooned in Realtime, A Deepness in the Sky, A Fire upon the Deep, Tatja Grimm’s World), and in some works, explicit characterization and speculation of economic and social pressures that cause sexism (Marooned in Realtime, A Deepness in the Sky).

It is a subtle but persistent theme in his work.

]]> By: belle waring http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126040 belle waring Wed, 30 Nov 2005 16:30:47 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126040 the narrator implies strongly at many points that Mr. Norrell is being an ass for thinking that women can't be magicians, taking Strange's side in a dispute over whether some aureate magician was taught by a woman. this all just implies, to my mind, some future female magician laughing at Norrell's foibles. the narrator implies strongly at many points that Mr. Norrell is being an ass for thinking that women can’t be magicians, taking Strange’s side in a dispute over whether some aureate magician was taught by a woman. this all just implies, to my mind, some future female magician laughing at Norrell’s foibles.

]]> By: sammler http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126028 sammler Wed, 30 Nov 2005 11:51:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126028 If (as another post here suggests) the magical revolution in this book is based on England's real industrial revolution, then the male character of magic would simply be a reflection of the male character of industry and engineering in the real 1800's. If (as another post here suggests) the magical revolution in this book is based on England’s real industrial revolution, then the male character of magic would simply be a reflection of the male character of industry and engineering in the real 1800’s.

]]> By: riting on the wall » Blog Archive » two totally unrelated items http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126020 riting on the wall » Blog Archive » two totally unrelated items Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:50:22 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126020 [...] crooked timber is discussing susanna clarke’s phenomenal novel “jonathan strange and mr. norrell”http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ritingonthewa-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F1582344167%2Fqid%3D1133342186%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_1%3Fn%3D507846%2526s%3Dbooks%2526v%3Dglance. there’s a pdf of all here. i would highlight belle and henry. the revolutionary aspects of the novel continue to draw me back to reflection - was strange actually a revolutionary thinker? why wasn’t childermass the main character in the end? he’s the one who actually seems to grasp both faerie and england, after all. [...] [...] crooked timber is discussing susanna clarke’s phenomenal novel “jonathan strange and mr. norrell”http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?link_code=ur2&tag=ritingonthewa-20&camp=1789&creative=9325&path=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2Fgp%2Fproduct%2F1582344167%2Fqid%3D1133342186%2Fsr%3D8-1%2Fref%3Dpd_bbs_1%3Fn%3D507846%2526s%3Dbooks%2526v%3Dglance. there’s a pdf of all here. i would highlight belle and henry. the revolutionary aspects of the novel continue to draw me back to reflection – was strange actually a revolutionary thinker? why wasn’t childermass the main character in the end? he’s the one who actually seems to grasp both faerie and england, after all. [...]

]]> By: Alison http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-126014 Alison Wed, 30 Nov 2005 09:18:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-126014 I want to see interesting and important female characters. But I also want to see sexy male characters. Those are also sparse in conventional male mainstream literature. I think JS&MN is replete with sexy male characters (uh, not Mr Norell of course), and this aspect of woman's voice, or woman's vision, is something I really appreciate about the book. I want to see interesting and important female characters. But I also want to see sexy male characters. Those are also sparse in conventional male mainstream literature. I think JS&MN is replete with sexy male characters (uh, not Mr Norell of course), and this aspect of woman’s voice, or woman’s vision, is something I really appreciate about the book.

]]> By: Tom Lynch http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125882 Tom Lynch Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:40:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125882 Requiring a "good" fantasy novel like JS&MN to contain strong female characters is a form of backhanded praise. Contrast "this book is good, so why doesn't it contain well drawn female characters?" against "these books are crap, one symptom of which is the lack of well drawn female characters". Old school "pulp" fantasy is excused from being judged on this axis. Rampant misogyny and a lack of interesting female characters are axioms of the genre in which Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, etc. wrote. Or Larry Niven writes (ugh, IMO). Requiring a “good” fantasy novel like JS&MN to contain strong female characters is a form of backhanded praise. Contrast “this book is good, so why doesn’t it contain well drawn female characters?” against “these books are crap, one symptom of which is the lack of well drawn female characters”.

Old school “pulp” fantasy is excused from being judged on this axis. Rampant misogyny and a lack of interesting female characters are axioms of the genre in which Lovecraft, Clark Ashton Smith, etc. wrote. Or Larry Niven writes (ugh, IMO).

]]> By: anon http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125878 anon Wed, 30 Nov 2005 03:11:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125878 Theodore Sturgeon, "The Widget, the Wadget and Boff", great female characters (IMHO). Theodore Sturgeon, “The Widget, the Wadget and Boff”, great female characters (IMHO).

]]> By: Another Damned Medievalist http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125876 Another Damned Medievalist Wed, 30 Nov 2005 02:12:29 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125876 I never really thought of the narrator as being particularly gendered, but I think you've made a goos argument for a female narrator. In terms of why there are no women magicians in <i>this</i> world, though, I have to say I wasn't disturbed by it. That at the height of English magic there were very strong female practitioners is abundantly clear. But the world inhabited by our heroes, if we can call them that, is more public than private. The theoretical magicians gather at what are essentially gentlemen's clubs -- rather than gambling and drinking at White's, they discuss magical theory. I think it's very telling that, once magic is again practical, and the practice popularized from the top of society down, we see more and more women drawn to it. In a way, I think there's an argument for the absence of women magicians being truer to the period and to the norms of female characters (in that part of society) in fiction of and about the period -- women are doers, men (with the exception of those in the military and rogues) are thinkers. I never really thought of the narrator as being particularly gendered, but I think you’ve made a goos argument for a female narrator. In terms of why there are no women magicians in this world, though, I have to say I wasn’t disturbed by it. That at the height of English magic there were very strong female practitioners is abundantly clear. But the world inhabited by our heroes, if we can call them that, is more public than private. The theoretical magicians gather at what are essentially gentlemen’s clubs—rather than gambling and drinking at White’s, they discuss magical theory. I think it’s very telling that, once magic is again practical, and the practice popularized from the top of society down, we see more and more women drawn to it.

In a way, I think there’s an argument for the absence of women magicians being truer to the period and to the norms of female characters (in that part of society) in fiction of and about the period —women are doers, men (with the exception of those in the military and rogues) are thinkers.

]]> By: Kenny Easwaran http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125874 Kenny Easwaran Wed, 30 Nov 2005 00:28:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125874 Funny - the passage that convinced me that the narrator was female (rather than John Segundus) is one of the first talking about Ms. Brandy, describing her interactions with Stephen Black, and pointing out that the men will think she is tending poorly to her business, but the ladies will think she is minding her business very well indeed. Funny – the passage that convinced me that the narrator was female (rather than John Segundus) is one of the first talking about Ms. Brandy, describing her interactions with Stephen Black, and pointing out that the men will think she is tending poorly to her business, but the ladies will think she is minding her business very well indeed.

]]> By: Heresiarch http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125853 Heresiarch Tue, 29 Nov 2005 22:21:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125853 The Gene Wolfe story you are trying for is "The Ziggurat", from the collection <i>Strange Travelers</i>. Wolfe's latent misogyny bothers me every time it surfaces. Brilliant, brilliant writer. But he can't write whole women. The Gene Wolfe story you are trying for is “The Ziggurat”, from the collection Strange Travelers.

Wolfe’s latent misogyny bothers me every time it surfaces. Brilliant, brilliant writer. But he can’t write whole women.

]]> By: DJ http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125838 DJ Tue, 29 Nov 2005 21:35:21 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125838 <i>and there are still no strong female characters, and the single most plot-advancing, definite action taken by any of them is to accept a mirror from someone</i> Well, I don't agree! I think Lady Pole, Arabella, Ms Brandy, Miss Greysteel are all strong characters in their own ways. Maybe you forgot the scene where Lady Pole takes down all of Norrell's bodyguards (with moves that would make Trinity jealous) and then shoots Childermass. Sure, she might have been aided by Faerie magic a little, but you've got to give her credit for standing up for herself. :) It is true none of them are really plot-advancing, but I still think it just fits more with the time this book takes place that only rich white men are the ones with enough time to bother with magic as a profession. But I would argue that the female characters are much more than cardboard-cutouts, they all have very independent minds and strong personalities. and there are still no strong female characters, and the single most plot-advancing, definite action taken by any of them is to accept a mirror from someone
Well, I don’t agree! I think Lady Pole, Arabella, Ms Brandy, Miss Greysteel are all strong characters in their own ways. Maybe you forgot the scene where Lady Pole takes down all of Norrell’s bodyguards (with moves that would make Trinity jealous) and then shoots Childermass. Sure, she might have been aided by Faerie magic a little, but you’ve got to give her credit for standing up for herself. :)

It is true none of them are really plot-advancing, but I still think it just fits more with the time this book takes place that only rich white men are the ones with enough time to bother with magic as a profession. But I would argue that the female characters are much more than cardboard-cutouts, they all have very independent minds and strong personalities.

]]> By: Patrick Nielsen Hayden http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125826 Patrick Nielsen Hayden Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:44:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125826 Tolkien did have strong female characters; the problem is that they're in the <em>Silmarillion</em>. I mean, Luthien prevailed over Sauron in single combat, which is more than any jumped-up Numenorean heir ever did. But. Tolkien did have strong female characters; the problem is that they’re in the Silmarillion.

I mean, Luthien prevailed over Sauron in single combat, which is more than any jumped-up Numenorean heir ever did. But.

]]> By: Sebastian Holsclaw http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125825 Sebastian Holsclaw Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:37:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125825 If you want a good book with female characters (and an interesting alternate history of England) try <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060575816/104-5853522-5342362?v=glance&n=283155&st=%2A&v=glance" rel="nofollow"> the Abhorsen Trilogy </a> by Garth Nix. If you want a good book with female characters (and an interesting alternate history of England) try the Abhorsen Trilogy by Garth Nix.

]]> By: morinao http://crookedtimber.org/2005/11/29/who-is-the-narrator-of-jonathan-strange-and-mr-norrell-and-where-are-the-lady-magicians/comment-page-1/#comment-125824 morinao Tue, 29 Nov 2005 19:29:17 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4076#comment-125824 My favorite narrator's aside, that perhaps bounds the date of the text's notional authorship (p.111): <i>Still the strange ships glittered and shone, and this led to some discussion as to what they might be made of. The Admiral thought perhaps iron or steel. (Metal ships indeed! The French are, as I have often supposed, a very whimsical nation.)</i> My favorite narrator’s aside, that perhaps bounds the date of the text’s notional authorship (p.111):

Still the strange ships glittered and shone, and this led to some discussion as to what they might be made of. The Admiral thought perhaps iron or steel. (Metal ships indeed! The French are, as I have often supposed, a very whimsical nation.)

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