<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: NYU Grad Students Petition</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Nov 2009 01:04:21 -0800</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-128866</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Dec 2005 17:06:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-128866</guid>
		<description>Brandon,

Your posts reveal a laughable &#039;understanding&#039; (if I can call it that) of political and social life. You&#039;re describing the employer-employee relationship (in this case, university-teacher/graduate student) as if all that mattered about it from a moral/social point of view was the fact that both side have signed a contract. Nothing else matters to you -- certainly not the unequal power relations between the two sides to the contract.

No, it&#039;s not morally okay for an organization to fire strikers -- and many countries (including even the U.S., I believe) have laws about that. And the reason why it&#039;s not okay is that the right to strike (and the right NOT to get fired while striking) is one of the only ways in which a fairer balance of power between employer and employee can be achieved. Of course, you can deny that equality of that sort is morally important. But then you&#039;ll have to argue for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brandon,</p>

	<p>Your posts reveal a laughable &#8216;understanding&#8217; (if I can call it that) of political and social life. You&#8217;re describing the employer-employee relationship (in this case, university-teacher/graduate student) as if all that mattered about it from a moral/social point of view was the fact that both side have signed a contract. Nothing else matters to you&#8212;certainly not the unequal power relations between the two sides to the contract.</p>

	<p>No, it&#8217;s not morally okay for an organization to fire strikers&#8212;and many countries (including even the U.S., I believe) have laws about that. And the reason why it&#8217;s not okay is that the right to strike (and the right <span class="caps">NOT</span> to get fired while striking) is one of the only ways in which a fairer balance of power between employer and employee can be achieved. Of course, you can deny that equality of that sort is morally important. But then you&#8217;ll have to argue for it.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Berg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127995</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 20:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127995</guid>
		<description>I haven&#039;t made any arguments. I&#039;ve expressed an opinion (employers should be able to fire employees who don&#039;t do their jobs), but mostly I&#039;ve distilled the facts and presented them free of pro-union rhetoric.

To which of the three points above do you object? If a teacher won&#039;t do his job, should the university be barred from replacing him with someone who will, or perhaps forced to fire the replacement when the original teacher decides that it wasn&#039;t such a good idea after all? Should teachers not be expected to teach their classes? Or should universities be barred from giving honest and factual performance evaluations upon request?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I haven&#8217;t made any arguments. I&#8217;ve expressed an opinion (employers should be able to fire employees who don&#8217;t do their jobs), but mostly I&#8217;ve distilled the facts and presented them free of pro-union rhetoric.</p>

	<p>To which of the three points above do you object? If a teacher won&#8217;t do his job, should the university be barred from replacing him with someone who will, or perhaps forced to fire the replacement when the original teacher decides that it wasn&#8217;t such a good idea after all? Should teachers not be expected to teach their classes? Or should universities be barred from giving honest and factual performance evaluations upon request?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jacob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127839</link>
		<dc:creator>jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 14:08:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127839</guid>
		<description>The funny thing about conversations like this and comments like Brandon&#039;s is that they are nearly identitical--down to the rhetoric used by both sides--to arguments about unionization in the Gilded Age.  It&#039;s slightly absurd to me that we have had to have the same conversations about the rights of workers for the past 125 years.  I can think of no other aspect of politics where we have progressed so little.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The funny thing about conversations like this and comments like Brandon&#8217;s is that they are nearly identitical&#8212;down to the rhetoric used by both sides&#8212;to arguments about unionization in the Gilded Age.  It&#8217;s slightly absurd to me that we have had to have the same conversations about the rights of workers for the past 125 years.  I can think of no other aspect of politics where we have progressed so little.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Berg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127810</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 07:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127810</guid>
		<description>The above, &lt;i&gt;sans&lt;/i&gt; inflammatory rhetoric:

1. Those who don&#039;t do their jobs will be fired, and will be ineligible to be rehired for five months.

2. Those who are hired in the future will be required to promise to perform faithfully for the duration of their employment the duties for which they were hired.

3. A prospective employer inquiring about the performance of someone fired for failing to do his job will be told that the employee in question was fired for failing to do his job.

Appalling!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The above, <i>sans</i> inflammatory rhetoric:</p>

	<p>1. Those who don&#8217;t do their jobs will be fired, and will be ineligible to be rehired for five months.</p>

	<p>2. Those who are hired in the future will be required to promise to perform faithfully for the duration of their employment the duties for which they were hired.</p>

	<p>3. A prospective employer inquiring about the performance of someone fired for failing to do his job will be told that the employee in question was fired for failing to do his job.</p>

	<p>Appalling!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: jacob</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127795</link>
		<dc:creator>jacob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 02:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127795</guid>
		<description>In today&#039;s Newsday, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oplaf084543511dec08,0,6678832.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gordon Lafer points out&lt;/a&gt; several more instances of &quot;appalling behavior&quot;:

1.  Creating a blacklist of strike participants.  (This is what Brandon so charmingly dismisses as firing people for not doing their jobs.)

2.  Requiring that those who are given teaching jobs next semester promise not to participate in any future job actions.  As Lafer mentions, making employment contingent on a promise not to engage in concerted actions is a &quot;yellow dog contract&quot; and was made illegal even before the Wagner Act.  It&#039;s unclear (at least to me) whether graduate teachers are currently covered by this prior act, and therefore whether Sexton&#039;s requirement is illegal or merely unethical.

3.  In Lafer&#039;s words:  &quot;Sexton suggests that those who participate in strike actions but, God forbid, graduate before they can be punished, may have negative assessments attached to their university record when they apply for jobs at other schools. This type of blacklisting has not been seen since the dark days of McCarthyism.&quot;

If that&#039;s not appalling behavior, I&#039;m not sure what is.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In today&#8217;s Newsday, <a href="http://www.newsday.com/news/opinion/ny-oplaf084543511dec08,0,6678832.story?coll=ny-viewpoints-headlines" rel="nofollow">Gordon Lafer points out</a> several more instances of &#8220;appalling behavior&#8221;:</p>

	<p>1.  Creating a blacklist of strike participants.  (This is what Brandon so charmingly dismisses as firing people for not doing their jobs.)</p>

	<p>2.  Requiring that those who are given teaching jobs next semester promise not to participate in any future job actions.  As Lafer mentions, making employment contingent on a promise not to engage in concerted actions is a &#8220;yellow dog contract&#8221; and was made illegal even before the Wagner Act.  It&#8217;s unclear (at least to me) whether graduate teachers are currently covered by this prior act, and therefore whether Sexton&#8217;s requirement is illegal or merely unethical.</p>

	<p>3.  In Lafer&#8217;s words:  &#8220;Sexton suggests that those who participate in strike actions but, God forbid, graduate before they can be punished, may have negative assessments attached to their university record when they apply for jobs at other schools. This type of blacklisting has not been seen since the dark days of McCarthyism.&#8221;</p>

	<p>If that&#8217;s not appalling behavior, I&#8217;m not sure what is.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Berg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127791</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:59:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127791</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Brandon, if they’re employees, they can legally organize.&lt;/i&gt;

Fine. But employers should be able to fire them for not doing their jobs. Don&#039;t bother telling me that the law says otherwise. If the law says otherwise, the law is an ass.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Brandon, if they&#8217;re employees, they can legally organize.</i></p>

	<p>Fine. But employers should be able to fire them for not doing their jobs. Don&#8217;t bother telling me that the law says otherwise. If the law says otherwise, the law is an ass.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127789</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Dec 2005 01:37:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127789</guid>
		<description>Brandon, if they&#039;re employees, they can legally organize.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Brandon, if they&#8217;re employees, they can legally organize.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brandon Berg</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127774</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 23:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127774</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Well, Brandon, if you’d read the background information you would know that, according to the University (and now the NLRB) the graduate students are not employees.&lt;/i&gt;

Yes, I&#039;m aware of that, but I think it&#039;s fairly obvious that they are employees. I&#039;m just pointing out the absurdity of referring to threatening to fire employees for not doing their jobs as &quot;appalling behaviour.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Well, Brandon, if you&#8217;d read the background information you would know that, according to the University (and now the <span class="caps">NLRB</span>) the graduate students are not employees.</i></p>

	<p>Yes, I&#8217;m aware of that, but I think it&#8217;s fairly obvious that they are employees. I&#8217;m just pointing out the absurdity of referring to threatening to fire employees for not doing their jobs as &#8220;appalling behaviour.&#8221; </p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127761</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 22:37:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127761</guid>
		<description>I would guess that a lot of the variation between departments is due to the obvious reasons - grad students will spend more time with people in their own departments.  And if all of the students in a department strike, it&#039;s harder for a department to fire them.  If most back out at the last minute, the ones who kept going are more vulnerable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I would guess that a lot of the variation between departments is due to the obvious reasons &#8211; grad students will spend more time with people in their own departments.  And if all of the students in a department strike, it&#8217;s harder for a department to fire them.  If most back out at the last minute, the ones who kept going are more vulnerable.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127626</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 20:20:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127626</guid>
		<description>Barry (post 23): I&#039;ll take &quot;Glib, Sophomoric Responses&quot; for $500 dollars please.

However, you are correct; I should have left out the modifier &quot;vaguely&quot; to be more in accord with the pro-grad-union talking points, which hold that students would support the union if only their anti-grad-union advisors and chairs would stop frightening them into silence.  As I noted, history grad students at Yale supported the union cause despite the position of their chair. And as others here have noted, support for unionization does vary from division to division and from department to department due to what is surely a bewildering array of factors. The suggestion, very common at Yale, that a majority of grad students would support the union if only the faculty and administration would stop intimidating them is rubbish and is insulting. It is insulting to the graduate students, who can weigh the evidence and make our own decisions, thank you, and is insulting to the many many professors here who have reservations about the union but who are willing to let the graduate students weigh the evidence and make their own decisions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Barry (post 23): I&#8217;ll take &#8220;Glib, Sophomoric Responses&#8221; for $500 dollars please.</p>

	<p>However, you are correct; I should have left out the modifier &#8220;vaguely&#8221; to be more in accord with the pro-grad-union talking points, which hold that students would support the union if only their anti-grad-union advisors and chairs would stop frightening them into silence.  As I noted, history grad students at Yale supported the union cause despite the position of their chair. And as others here have noted, support for unionization does vary from division to division and from department to department due to what is surely a bewildering array of factors. The suggestion, very common at Yale, that a majority of grad students would support the union if only the faculty and administration would stop intimidating them is rubbish and is insulting. It is insulting to the graduate students, who can weigh the evidence and make our own decisions, thank you, and is insulting to the many many professors here who have reservations about the union but who are willing to let the graduate students weigh the evidence and make their own decisions.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127604</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:14:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127604</guid>
		<description>Sorry about the itals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry about the itals.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127603</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 18:13:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127603</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Agreed—but isn’t this a less harsh sanction than the clearly legal and normal alternative? As far as I know, it would be entirely legal to declare that the strikers have not fulfilled the terms of this semester’s TA contract, and so owe tuition for the semester—and not allow them to re-enroll until tuition is paid.&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt;

Reiterating Dan Nexon&#039;s point: To say this is to acknowledge that they&#039;re employees.  As such, they generally should have a right to bargain collectively, and I believe that their employer is subject to severe constraints--and in most cases statutorily prohibited--from punitive dismissals, which is what not hiring them for the spring semester amounts to.  (Btw, would NYU be able to come up with all the needed replacements in the available time, or will it try to force some of the researchers back into the classroom???)

As to tuition--the dismissed strikers will suddenly receive a fat tuition bill for the present semester or the spring semester.  I could be wrong, of course, but I don&#039;t see how it would make much of difference to them which it is.&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Agreed&#8212;but isn&#8217;t this a less harsh sanction than the clearly legal and normal alternative? As far as I know, it would be entirely legal to declare that the strikers have not fulfilled the terms of this semester&#8217;s TA contract, and so owe tuition for the semester&#8212;and not allow them to re-enroll until tuition is paid.</i><i></i></p>

	<p>Reiterating Dan Nexon&#8217;s point: To say this is to acknowledge that they&#8217;re employees.  As such, they generally should have a right to bargain collectively, and I believe that their employer is subject to severe constraints&#8212;and in most cases statutorily prohibited&#8212;from punitive dismissals, which is what not hiring them for the spring semester amounts to.  (Btw, would <span class="caps">NYU</span> be able to come up with all the needed replacements in the available time, or will it try to force some of the researchers back into the classroom???)</p>

	<p>As to tuition&#8212;the dismissed strikers will suddenly receive a fat tuition bill for the present semester or the spring semester.  I could be wrong, of course, but I don&#8217;t see how it would make much of difference to them which it is.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127575</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 14:00:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127575</guid>
		<description>James:  &quot;these vaguely sinister explanations bubble to the surface?&quot;

BZZZZZZZZZZZZT!  Wrong answer!  &#039;their department chair vociferously opposes the union&#039; does **not** equate to &#039;vaguely sinister explanations&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>James:  &#8220;these vaguely sinister explanations bubble to the surface?&#8221;</p>

	<p><span class="caps">BZZZZZZZZZZZZT</span>!  Wrong answer!  &#8216;their department chair vociferously opposes the union&#8217; does <b>not</b> equate to &#8216;vaguely sinister explanations&#8217;.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Nexon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127569</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Nexon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:41:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127569</guid>
		<description>&quot;The University is threatening to fire its employees for not not doing their jobs? Appalling!&quot;

Well, Brandon, if you&#039;d read the background information you would know that, according to the University (and now the NLRB) the graduate students are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; employees. If they were employees, they would have a right to form a union and be protected by relevant employment law. But since they&#039;re not employees, they can be &quot;fired&quot; for striking in their attempt to keep their union. But, as you yourself note, the justification for &quot;firing&quot; them would seem to imply that they are employees. Oh, the head spins.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;The University is threatening to fire its employees for not not doing their jobs? Appalling!&#8221;</p>

	<p>Well, Brandon, if you&#8217;d read the background information you would know that, according to the University (and now the <span class="caps">NLRB</span>) the graduate students are <i>not</i> employees. If they were employees, they would have a right to form a union and be protected by relevant employment law. But since they&#8217;re not employees, they can be &#8220;fired&#8221; for striking in their attempt to keep their union. But, as you yourself note, the justification for &#8220;firing&#8221; them would seem to imply that they are employees. Oh, the head spins.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Bertram</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/comment-page-1/#comment-127564</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Bertram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Dec 2005 09:34:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/07/nyu-grad-students-petition/#comment-127564</guid>
		<description>Well I may have missed something in the flurry of comments on various blogs, but it seems as if Velleman and Boghossian always avoid addressing the issue raised by Henry&#039;s post here.

In their comments they stick to the merits of the dispute, the _ius ad bellum_ as it were. But the post here isn&#039;t about the _ius ad bellum_ but about the way the administration has conducted itself in the conflict: the _ius in bello_ . 

Boghossian makes much (too much) of his liberal, Democratic and pro-labor views. Surely it is reasonable to ask about whether it is consistent to espouse such values at the same time as endorsing the tactics employed by the NYU administration? But perhaps Boghossian is embarassed by those tactics, which would explain why he fails to discuss them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well I may have missed something in the flurry of comments on various blogs, but it seems as if Velleman and Boghossian always avoid addressing the issue raised by Henry&#8217;s post here.</p>

	<p>In their comments they stick to the merits of the dispute, the <em>ius ad bellum</em> as it were. But the post here isn&#8217;t about the <em>ius ad bellum</em> but about the way the administration has conducted itself in the conflict: the <em>ius in bello</em> .</p>

	<p>Boghossian makes much (too much) of his liberal, Democratic and pro-labor views. Surely it is reasonable to ask about whether it is consistent to espouse such values at the same time as endorsing the tactics employed by the <span class="caps">NYU</span> administration? But perhaps Boghossian is embarassed by those tactics, which would explain why he fails to discuss them.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
