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	<title>Comments on: Wonkery or Wankery?</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Answer Guy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132980</link>
		<dc:creator>Answer Guy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Dec 2005 16:00:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132980</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Just maybe the Democratic party is not offering the voting public what it wants?&lt;/i&gt;

Is it that simple? That the Republican platform and Republican &quot;ideas&quot; (especially as pertains to domestic policy) are simply popular? Polling numbers (and, indeed, Republican message management behavior) suggest that that&#039;s not really the case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Just maybe the Democratic party is not offering the voting public what it wants?</i></p>

	<p>Is it that simple? That the Republican platform and Republican &#8220;ideas&#8221; (especially as pertains to domestic policy) are simply popular? Polling numbers (and, indeed, Republican message management behavior) suggest that that&#8217;s not really the case.</p>
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		<title>By: james</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132741</link>
		<dc:creator>james</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Dec 2005 06:09:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132741</guid>
		<description>Just maybe the Democratic party is not offering the voting public what it wants?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Just maybe the Democratic party is not offering the voting public what it wants?</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132617</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 21:54:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132617</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The Democratic party is sclerotic; like American car makers of a generation ago, it wants only to make the same old product and rely on advertising to move it. The Democratic leadership will say they want ‘new’ thinking, but any new thoughts that require a change in direction or, worse yet, a change in leadership will receive short shrift.

In other words; wonk away, it won’t make a bit of difference until after the palace revolution.&lt;/i&gt;

I pretty much agree, but this particular criticism of the democrats is pretty old and sclerotic itself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>The Democratic party is sclerotic; like American car makers of a generation ago, it wants only to make the same old product and rely on advertising to move it. The Democratic leadership will say they want &#8216;new&#8217; thinking, but any new thoughts that require a change in direction or, worse yet, a change in leadership will receive short shrift.</i></p>

	<p>In other words; wonk away, it won&#8217;t make a bit of difference until after the palace revolution.</p>

	<p>I pretty much agree, but this particular criticism of the democrats is pretty old and sclerotic itself.</p>
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		<title>By: PersonFromPorlock</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132530</link>
		<dc:creator>PersonFromPorlock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 14:57:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132530</guid>
		<description>The Democratic party is sclerotic; like American car makers of a generation ago, it wants only to make the same old product and rely on advertising to move it. The Democratic leadership will say they want &#039;new&#039; thinking, but any new thoughts that require a change in direction or, worse yet, a change in leadership will receive short shrift.


In other words; wonk away, it won&#039;t make a bit of difference until after the palace revolution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Democratic party is sclerotic; like American car makers of a generation ago, it wants only to make the same old product and rely on advertising to move it. The Democratic leadership will say they want &#8216;new&#8217; thinking, but any new thoughts that require a change in direction or, worse yet, a change in leadership will receive short shrift.</p>


	<p>In other words; wonk away, it won&#8217;t make a bit of difference until after the palace revolution.</p>
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		<title>By: chef</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132344</link>
		<dc:creator>chef</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:41:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132344</guid>
		<description>The Democrats need to do a variant of Reagan&#039;s &quot;there you go again&quot; ploy. The democratic candidate should bring a notecard and place it face down. Then, when the usual canards are voiced (e.g. &quot;class warfare&quot;), whip out the card and say, &quot;ah. number 6!&quot; Then ridicule it to the point that the Republicans can&#039;t use it without peoples&#039; eyes glazing over. 
I used this technique in cross-examination debate to great effect. It would work doubly well against dopes like Ed Gillespie who never vary their message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Democrats need to do a variant of Reagan&#8217;s &#8220;there you go again&#8221; ploy. The democratic candidate should bring a notecard and place it face down. Then, when the usual canards are voiced (e.g. &#8220;class warfare&#8221;), whip out the card and say, &#8220;ah. number 6!&#8221; Then ridicule it to the point that the Republicans can&#8217;t use it without peoples&#8217; eyes glazing over.<br />
I used this technique in cross-examination debate to great effect. It would work doubly well against dopes like Ed Gillespie who never vary their message.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbar</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132206</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 Dec 2005 10:00:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132206</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;They define themselves [positively] by defining their Democratic opponents [negatively]&lt;/i&gt;

This can&#039;t be emphasized enough.  This is the main reason Lieberman drives people up walls, for example.  He isn&#039;t bothered by characterizations of Democrats as liberal amoral godless wusses who hate America and wish to undermine our security, and just takes this framework as an opportunity to say, &quot;Look at me, I&#039;m the Democrat who defies your expectations.&quot;  He&#039;ll never challenge that mindset.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>They define themselves [positively] by defining their Democratic opponents [negatively]</i></p>

	<p>This can&#8217;t be emphasized enough.  This is the main reason Lieberman drives people up walls, for example.  He isn&#8217;t bothered by characterizations of Democrats as liberal amoral godless wusses who hate America and wish to undermine our security, and just takes this framework as an opportunity to say, &#8220;Look at me, I&#8217;m the Democrat who defies your expectations.&#8221;  He&#8217;ll never challenge that mindset.</p>
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		<title>By: James Kroeger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132109</link>
		<dc:creator>James Kroeger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 22:33:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132109</guid>
		<description>Unfortunately, policy wonks tend to think that the political party that offers the best arguments to the voters on the issues will win on Election Day.  The Republicans have shown us repeatedly that The Issues are &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; the most important variable in an election campaign.  True, the issues might actually be important to many Swing Voters early on in a political campaign, but when both sides start to loudly pick apart each other’s facts &amp; interpretations, the typical Swing Voter quickly becomes confused.  As the debate over The Issues drags on, Swing Voters realize that they don’t understand the details well enough to make an informed decision, so they end up relying on their &lt;i&gt;impressions&lt;/i&gt; of the candidates.

Republican strategists see this clearly.  That is why they continuously try to create doubts in the minds of the Swing Voters about the &lt;b&gt;character&lt;/b&gt; of the Democratic candidate.  They know that it doesn’t really matter if they can’t find any real flaws in their Democratic opponents.  Accusations, insinuations, &amp; innuendo will work just fine.  They hope to encourage voters to question the &lt;i&gt;motivation&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;dependability&lt;/i&gt; of The Democrats.  They try to create the perception that Democrats are “defective” in a disturbing way.  

The most important reason why negative campaigning has worked so well for the Republicans is because their negative attacks on the Democrats &lt;i&gt;create a positive impression of Republican candidates&lt;/i&gt;, who appear—&lt;i&gt;in contrast&lt;/i&gt;—to be individuals who do &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; possess the defects that they have accused others of having.  &lt;b&gt;They define themselves&lt;/b&gt; [positively] &lt;b&gt;by defining their Democratic opponents&lt;/b&gt; [negatively].  On a visceral level, what the Republicans actually “stand for” in the minds of Swing Voters on election day is that &lt;i&gt;they are not Democrats&lt;/i&gt;—those defective people who seem to have been born to ruin everything.

Yes, it’s a good thing that Democrats and Progressives and Liberals have their think tanks.  It’s great to have facts when you need them.  But there is nothing that these think tanks are generating that can help Democrats to win elections.  Kos is right.  We’ve got to master the &lt;i&gt;emotional&lt;/i&gt; side of political strategy or we’re going to continue to get our butts kicked.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Unfortunately, policy wonks tend to think that the political party that offers the best arguments to the voters on the issues will win on Election Day.  The Republicans have shown us repeatedly that The Issues are <i>not</i> the most important variable in an election campaign.  True, the issues might actually be important to many Swing Voters early on in a political campaign, but when both sides start to loudly pick apart each other&#8217;s facts &#038; interpretations, the typical Swing Voter quickly becomes confused.  As the debate over The Issues drags on, Swing Voters realize that they don&#8217;t understand the details well enough to make an informed decision, so they end up relying on their <i>impressions</i> of the candidates.</p>

	<p>Republican strategists see this clearly.  That is why they continuously try to create doubts in the minds of the Swing Voters about the <b>character</b> of the Democratic candidate.  They know that it doesn&#8217;t really matter if they can&#8217;t find any real flaws in their Democratic opponents.  Accusations, insinuations, &#038; innuendo will work just fine.  They hope to encourage voters to question the <i>motivation</i> and <i>dependability</i> of The Democrats.  They try to create the perception that Democrats are &#8220;defective&#8221; in a disturbing way.</p>

	<p>The most important reason why negative campaigning has worked so well for the Republicans is because their negative attacks on the Democrats <i>create a positive impression of Republican candidates</i>, who appear&#8212;<i>in contrast</i>&#8212;to be individuals who do <i>not</i> possess the defects that they have accused others of having.  <b>They define themselves</b> [positively] <b>by defining their Democratic opponents</b> [negatively].  On a visceral level, what the Republicans actually &#8220;stand for&#8221; in the minds of Swing Voters on election day is that <i>they are not Democrats</i>&#8212;those defective people who seem to have been born to ruin everything.</p>

	<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a good thing that Democrats and Progressives and Liberals have their think tanks.  It&#8217;s great to have facts when you need them.  But there is nothing that these think tanks are generating that can help Democrats to win elections.  Kos is right.  We&#8217;ve got to master the <i>emotional</i> side of political strategy or we&#8217;re going to continue to get our butts kicked.</p>
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		<title>By: Semanticleo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-132028</link>
		<dc:creator>Semanticleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 17:04:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-132028</guid>
		<description>No, politics is the art of controlling the environment.

The voting public doesn&#039;t really care
(at the core; which excludes one-issue voters)
about policy. They aren&#039;t that interested
in the &#039;nuts-and-bolts&#039; of government.  

That&#039;s why they hire congressmen.  They don&#039;t want to be bothered by the details.  If dems can
manage to herd their own cats and develop
a sense of decisiveness that is consistent,
they&#039;ll get the vote.

As long as they don&#039;t define themselves,
the republicans will be glad to do it for
them, and will continue to control
the environment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, politics is the art of controlling the environment.</p>

	<p>The voting public doesn&#8217;t really care<br />
(at the core; which excludes one-issue voters)<br />
about policy. They aren&#8217;t that interested<br />
in the &#8216;nuts-and-bolts&#8217; of government.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s why they hire congressmen.  They don&#8217;t want to be bothered by the details.  If dems can<br />
manage to herd their own cats and develop<br />
a sense of decisiveness that is consistent,<br />
they&#8217;ll get the vote.</p>

	<p>As long as they don&#8217;t define themselves,<br />
the republicans will be glad to do it for<br />
them, and will continue to control<br />
the environment.</p>
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		<title>By: RedWolf</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131891</link>
		<dc:creator>RedWolf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:35:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131891</guid>
		<description>Politics is the art of &quot;in your face.&quot; The Democrats look at their Banfi shoes, i.e. away, and that&#039;s the reason they didn&#039;t claw back to power. In a sense, Kerry asked &quot;what is claw?&quot;

Left wonkism is a necessary condition, but it is missing the point since most Democrats are Rockefeller Republicans (Hillary, Nelsons, Feinstein; Lieberman is a Neocon.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Politics is the art of &#8220;in your face.&#8221; The Democrats look at their Banfi shoes, i.e. away, and that&#8217;s the reason they didn&#8217;t claw back to power. In a sense, Kerry asked &#8220;what is claw?&#8221;</p>

	<p>Left wonkism is a necessary condition, but it is missing the point since most Democrats are Rockefeller Republicans (Hillary, Nelsons, Feinstein; Lieberman is a Neocon.)</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131889</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 11:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131889</guid>
		<description>The Democrats aren&#039;t seem interested in popular things like universal healthcare or, say, nuclear disarmament, and flatly opposed to any degree of economic nationalism. Under these circumstances demonizing the opponent is the best way to go; and it&#039;s easy too, because the opponents are evil monsters indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Democrats aren&#8217;t seem interested in popular things like universal healthcare or, say, nuclear disarmament, and flatly opposed to any degree of economic nationalism. Under these circumstances demonizing the opponent is the best way to go; and it&#8217;s easy too, because the opponents are evil monsters indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131885</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 09:56:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131885</guid>
		<description>Atrios subsequently posted some &lt;a href=&quot;http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_12_18_atrios_archive.html#113530809564183215&quot; title=&quot;More Wonkery&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;second thoughts&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Just to add to the earlier discussion, it wasn&#039;t all that long ago that Left Blogistan was dominated by boring boring repetitive wonky wonkery of the most wonkish kind - during the Social Security Bamboozlepalooza tour. The president was lying, the Trustees&#039; various reports were based on contradictory internal assumptions, and journamalists didn&#039;t know what the hell was going. We came, we wonk&#039;d, and we kicked some ass.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

He then praised Max Sawicky, and ended:

&lt;blockquote&gt;But even the social security debate was basically a defensive one. Such wonkery is necessary when those moments arise, but there&#039;s little point in having public debates about detailed policies which can&#039;t possibly pass, etc...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

For my part, I think that we liberal Americans ought to be hammering out a platform for the next election, and the one after that, an agressive economic agenda of the sort that Thomas Frank is calling for.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Atrios subsequently posted some <a href="http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_12_18_atrios_archive.html#113530809564183215" title="More Wonkery" rel="nofollow">second thoughts</a>:</p>

	<p><blockquote>Just to add to the earlier discussion, it wasn&#8217;t all that long ago that Left Blogistan was dominated by boring boring repetitive wonky wonkery of the most wonkish kind &#8211; during the Social Security Bamboozlepalooza tour. The president was lying, the Trustees&#8217; various reports were based on contradictory internal assumptions, and journamalists didn&#8217;t know what the hell was going. We came, we wonk&#8217;d, and we kicked some ass.</blockquote></p>

	<p>He then praised Max Sawicky, and ended:</p>

	<p><blockquote>But even the social security debate was basically a defensive one. Such wonkery is necessary when those moments arise, but there&#8217;s little point in having public debates about detailed policies which can&#8217;t possibly pass, etc&#8230;</blockquote></p>

	<p>For my part, I think that we liberal Americans ought to be hammering out a platform for the next election, and the one after that, an agressive economic agenda of the sort that Thomas Frank is calling for.</p>
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		<title>By: MQ</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131871</link>
		<dc:creator>MQ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 04:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131871</guid>
		<description>&quot;Good policy is good politics.&quot;

Why do you believe this?  I would say the two conincide less than half the time.

Also, Kos has a point about the Dems not really needing new ideas.  Stuff like Social Security is if anything more relevant to the modern economy than it was a couple of decades ago, when the employer-provided pension system was stronger.  Single payer health care is more needed now than ever, as private health insurance frays at the edges.  In general the Dems need to communicate their good ideas better, not come up with new ones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Good policy is good politics.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Why do you believe this?  I would say the two conincide less than half the time.</p>

	<p>Also, Kos has a point about the Dems not really needing new ideas.  Stuff like Social Security is if anything more relevant to the modern economy than it was a couple of decades ago, when the employer-provided pension system was stronger.  Single payer health care is more needed now than ever, as private health insurance frays at the edges.  In general the Dems need to communicate their good ideas better, not come up with new ones.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131866</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 03:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131866</guid>
		<description>Cernig - I don&#039;t think that&#039;s true - on those infrequent occasions when Atrios talks to substantive issues, he usually has something interesting to say. He&#039;s also one of the few active connections between the wonkosphere and the activist-bloggers - even if he gives Kevin etc grief he reads them, and brings their message to his readers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cernig &#8211; I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s true &#8211; on those infrequent occasions when Atrios talks to substantive issues, he usually has something interesting to say. He&#8217;s also one of the few active connections between the wonkosphere and the activist-bloggers &#8211; even if he gives Kevin etc grief he reads them, and brings their message to his readers.</p>
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		<title>By: Oberon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131863</link>
		<dc:creator>Oberon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 02:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131863</guid>
		<description>Good policy is good politics.

Usually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good policy is good politics.</p>

	<p>Usually.</p>
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		<title>By: Cernig</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2005/12/22/wonkery-or-wankery/comment-page-1/#comment-131859</link>
		<dc:creator>Cernig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Dec 2005 01:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4148#comment-131859</guid>
		<description>The truth is Duncan couldn&#039;t wonk if his life depended on it nowadays. He&#039;s a snark and link engine, nothing more. But talk about handing the Right their talking points... &quot;Atrios says not only does the Left have no new ideas, it &lt;i&gt;shouldn&#039;t&lt;/i&gt; have any new ideas!&quot;

Regards, Cernig @ Newshog</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The truth is Duncan couldn&#8217;t wonk if his life depended on it nowadays. He&#8217;s a snark and link engine, nothing more. But talk about handing the Right their talking points&#8230; &#8220;Atrios says not only does the Left have no new ideas, it <i>shouldn&#8217;t</i> have any new ideas!&#8221;</p>

	<p>Regards, Cernig @ Newshog</p>
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