Comments on: All Creatures Great and Small http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:29:41 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jim S http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-136047 Jim S Sat, 07 Jan 2006 08:14:27 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-136047 I am reminded of an episode of the original Twilight Zone. Does anyone remember the one I mean? Only hell wouldn't let the dog in. Here's a somewhat related question. What, after all, would constitute Heaven for most of us? A sterile place where we all do nothing but sing Hosannahs to his Name? I really doubt it. So perhaps we would need our pets there to be truly happy. How much of our pleasure in life relates to home, hearth, family and related pleasures from our senses? Going back to the holiday season, opening the Christmas presents is great, watching the grandkids opening theirs is better and Christmas dinner with the crew tops it off. The tastes, the smells, the feelings that intertwine with them all make some of the best times of our lives. And for some of us those furry companions are part and parcel of it. When I come home from work and our little horde is there wanting attention and taking pleasure in the petting and scratching I give them it's definitely a very good part of my day, one that I would always want to be part of my existence. I am reminded of an episode of the original Twilight Zone. Does anyone remember the one I mean? Only hell wouldn’t let the dog in.

Here’s a somewhat related question. What, after all, would constitute Heaven for most of us? A sterile place where we all do nothing but sing Hosannahs to his Name? I really doubt it. So perhaps we would need our pets there to be truly happy. How much of our pleasure in life relates to home, hearth, family and related pleasures from our senses? Going back to the holiday season, opening the Christmas presents is great, watching the grandkids opening theirs is better and Christmas dinner with the crew tops it off. The tastes, the smells, the feelings that intertwine with them all make some of the best times of our lives. And for some of us those furry companions are part and parcel of it. When I come home from work and our little horde is there wanting attention and taking pleasure in the petting and scratching I give them it’s definitely a very good part of my day, one that I would always want to be part of my existence.

]]> By: Ed Darrell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135722 Ed Darrell Fri, 06 Jan 2006 08:47:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135722 "The lamb shall lie down with the lion. But the lamb shall not get much sleep." Woody Allen “The lamb shall lie down with the lion. But the lamb shall not get much sleep.” Woody Allen

]]> By: qubit http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135717 qubit Fri, 06 Jan 2006 06:08:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135717 Well, Uncle Kvetch, I suppose from a strictly theological perspective, maybe the whole Bush Administration has already been condemed to Ptolomæa, Zone 3 of the Ninth Circle of Hell in the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Divine_Comedy#Inferno" rel="nofollow">Divine Comedy</a>: <blockquote>Zone 3 (Ptolomæa): Traitors to their guests (Canto 33). Named (probably) for Ptolemy, captain of Jericho, who invited Simon the High Priest and his sons to a banquet and there killed them. One of its inhabitants, Friar Alberigo, explains that <b>sometimes a soul falls here before the time that Atropos (the Fate who cuts the thread of life) should send it. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a fiend.</b></blockquote> That would certainly explain a lot, wouldn't it? Well, Uncle Kvetch, I suppose from a strictly theological perspective, maybe the whole Bush Administration has already been condemed to Ptolomæa, Zone 3 of the Ninth Circle of Hell in the Divine Comedy:
Zone 3 (Ptolomæa): Traitors to their guests (Canto 33). Named (probably) for Ptolemy, captain of Jericho, who invited Simon the High Priest and his sons to a banquet and there killed them. One of its inhabitants, Friar Alberigo, explains that sometimes a soul falls here before the time that Atropos (the Fate who cuts the thread of life) should send it. Their bodies on Earth are immediately possessed by a fiend.
That would certainly explain a lot, wouldn’t it?

]]> By: Matt McIrvin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135710 Matt McIrvin Fri, 06 Jan 2006 03:58:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135710 The famed Usenet denizen Archimedes Plutonium has occasionally claimed to be Phar Lap reincarnated, as well as Archimedes. The famed Usenet denizen Archimedes Plutonium has occasionally claimed to be Phar Lap reincarnated, as well as Archimedes.

]]> By: Bro. Bartleby http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135705 Bro. Bartleby Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:32:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135705 Once in Heaven, will we get extra helpings of Turkish Delight? Once in Heaven, will we get extra helpings of Turkish Delight?

]]> By: Uncle Kvetch http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135704 Uncle Kvetch Fri, 06 Jan 2006 02:30:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135704 <i>According to the entry on Hell, souls are so removed of grace that they have no inclinations but to sin as much as possible.</i> Whereupon they are reincarnated as senior-level members of the Bush Administration. Sorry, that was uncalled for--Catholics don't believe in reincarnation, of course. According to the entry on Hell, souls are so removed of grace that they have no inclinations but to sin as much as possible.

Whereupon they are reincarnated as senior-level members of the Bush Administration.

Sorry, that was uncalled for—Catholics don’t believe in reincarnation, of course.

]]> By: theogon http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135685 theogon Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:24:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135685 Donald: accurate, except that "soul" isn't really the right translation. "Nature" or "essence," of the sort that some say existence precedes. Saura: According to what I remember from the Catholic Encylopedia entry on Heaven, the beautified soul is so infused with grace that it lacks any inclination to sin. So you can, but wouldn't want to. According to the entry on Hell, souls are so removed of grace that they have no inclinations but to sin as much as possible. Which is a little weird. Donald: accurate, except that “soul” isn’t really the right translation. “Nature” or “essence,” of the sort that some say existence precedes.

Saura: According to what I remember from the Catholic Encylopedia entry on Heaven, the beautified soul is so infused with grace that it lacks any inclination to sin. So you can, but wouldn’t want to.

According to the entry on Hell, souls are so removed of grace that they have no inclinations but to sin as much as possible. Which is a little weird.

]]> By: saurabh http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135681 saurabh Thu, 05 Jan 2006 23:32:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135681 Daniel beat me to the punch: animals don't have souls. Therefore, they clearly cannot go to heaven in the afterlife, because they don't HAVE an afterlife. Spot, Goldie, and Mr. Miaow rot in the ground and become worm food. End of story. What next? Are we going to have books assuring kids their deceased Cabbage Patch Kid dolls are going to heaven? No! This is the way Paradise is going to work: when you enter, they'll start you on the barbituate drip. You will instantly be so happy, you won't even give a toss that Spot isn't dry-humping your leg. Then they will remove your genitalia so you can't have sex (Matthew 22:30). Far more interesting to me is, can you break the Commandments in Heaven? What if I take a page from Matthias, Son of Deuteronomy of Gath's book and start chanting "Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!" as soon as I'm within the Pearly Gates? Do they throw me out? Daniel beat me to the punch: animals don’t have souls. Therefore, they clearly cannot go to heaven in the afterlife, because they don’t HAVE an afterlife. Spot, Goldie, and Mr. Miaow rot in the ground and become worm food. End of story. What next? Are we going to have books assuring kids their deceased Cabbage Patch Kid dolls are going to heaven? No! This is the way Paradise is going to work: when you enter, they’ll start you on the barbituate drip. You will instantly be so happy, you won’t even give a toss that Spot isn’t dry-humping your leg. Then they will remove your genitalia so you can’t have sex (Matthew 22:30).

Far more interesting to me is, can you break the Commandments in Heaven? What if I take a page from Matthias, Son of Deuteronomy of Gath’s book and start chanting “Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!” as soon as I’m within the Pearly Gates? Do they throw me out?

]]> By: Donald Johnson http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135671 Donald Johnson Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:02:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135671 I think in Aristotle (and presumably Aquinas), plants, animals and humans have a vegetative soul, which is responsible for growth and other processes all living things share in common. Animals and humans have what I think was called a sensitive soul (not sure about the name) which allows us to see and hear and move around and do those sorts of things plants can't do (leaving aside Venus flytraps and other moving plants). Humans alone have a rational soul. Aristotle thought the soul (or souls) were the organizing form of the body, so when the body died, the soul died with it. Aquinas obviously didn't agree with that. C.S. Lewis has a chapter on animals in "The Problem of Pain". He toys with the idea that maybe there's a heaven for animals (and says that the heaven for mosquitoes and the hell for humans could be merged together), but thinks maybe God has some other unimaginable solution to the apparent injustice of animal suffering. Not the most satisfying thing he's ever written, if you're one of his Christian fans (as I am), but I give him points for caring--I know some Christians who seem positively offended at the notion of sharing heaven with Fido. I think in Aristotle (and presumably Aquinas), plants, animals and humans have a vegetative soul, which is responsible for growth and other processes all living things share in common. Animals and humans have what I think was called a sensitive soul (not sure about the name) which allows us to see and hear and move around and do those sorts of things plants can’t do (leaving aside Venus flytraps and other moving plants). Humans alone have a rational soul. Aristotle thought the soul (or souls) were the organizing form of the body, so when the body died, the soul died with it. Aquinas obviously didn’t agree with that.

C.S. Lewis has a chapter on animals in “The Problem of Pain”. He toys with the idea that maybe there’s a heaven for animals (and says that the heaven for mosquitoes and the hell for humans could be merged together), but thinks maybe God has some other unimaginable solution to the apparent injustice of animal suffering. Not the most satisfying thing he’s ever written, if you’re one of his Christian fans (as I am), but I give him points for caring—I know some Christians who seem positively offended at the notion of sharing heaven with Fido.

]]> By: Mrs Tilton http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135524 Mrs Tilton Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:47:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135524 As a highly heterodox presbyterian, Uncle, I defer to your lapsed catholicism. But it is not true that under catholic teaching (catholic teaching about this sort of thing being basically baptised Aristotle) animals do indeed (and indeed, necessarily) have souls, simply not <em>immortal</em> souls? If that is the case, our animal friends might at least be permitted to accompany us in the afterlife until that cosmos-spanning bird has whittled the entire mountain down to a grain of sand. As a highly heterodox presbyterian, Uncle, I defer to your lapsed catholicism. But it is not true that under catholic teaching (catholic teaching about this sort of thing being basically baptised Aristotle) animals do indeed (and indeed, necessarily) have souls, simply not immortal souls?

If that is the case, our animal friends might at least be permitted to accompany us in the afterlife until that cosmos-spanning bird has whittled the entire mountain down to a grain of sand.

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135523 Steve LaBonne Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:44:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135523 Any resemblance between the beliefs of many American Evangelicals, and anything recognizable as "Christianity" by historical standards, is purely coincidental. Any resemblance between the beliefs of many American Evangelicals, and anything recognizable as “Christianity” by historical standards, is purely coincidental.

]]> By: Darren http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135522 Darren Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:43:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135522 Interesting.. What if the animals don't believe in our God? Interesting..

What if the animals don’t believe in our God?

]]> By: Uncle Kvetch http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135521 Uncle Kvetch Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:41:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135521 Non-human animals, I mean. Non-human animals, I mean.

]]> By: Uncle Kvetch http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135520 Uncle Kvetch Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:40:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135520 Daniel, I'm as lapsed a Catholic as one could possibly be, but based on 12 years of Catholic schooling (and you just <i>know</i> this is the kind of question that came up in grade-school religion classes a lot), I'm fairly certain you are correct. Animals, AFAIK, do not have souls in Catholic teaching. Daniel, I’m as lapsed a Catholic as one could possibly be, but based on 12 years of Catholic schooling (and you just know this is the kind of question that came up in grade-school religion classes a lot), I’m fairly certain you are correct. Animals, AFAIK, do not have souls in Catholic teaching.

]]> By: Daniel http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/comment-page-1/#comment-135519 Daniel Thu, 05 Jan 2006 17:53:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/04/all-creatures-great-and-small/#comment-135519 could some of our resident Catholics confirm that believing in an afterlife for animals is certainly heretical and possibly blasphemous? I'm pretty sure that the Church is very definite on animals not having immortal souls, with no exceptions for lovely sweet cats or highly intelligent horses. could some of our resident Catholics confirm that believing in an afterlife for animals is certainly heretical and possibly blasphemous? I’m pretty sure that the Church is very definite on animals not having immortal souls, with no exceptions for lovely sweet cats or highly intelligent horses.

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