Comments on: This post is one of the biggest wastes of time of my lifetime… http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 04:23:18 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: aaron http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138677 aaron Sun, 15 Jan 2006 21:55:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138677 I still don't understand what damage was caused by the Plame leak. Could someone please provide me with some facts? Thanks. I still don’t understand what damage was caused by the Plame leak. Could someone please provide me with some facts?

Thanks.

]]> By: Brendan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138265 Brendan Sat, 14 Jan 2006 12:00:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138265 At the risk of wading in where angels with legal degrees fear to tread isn't the salient point about the current situation (as opposed to Echelon) not to do with the nature of the monitoring, but about the fact that Bush may well have broken the law in doing it? I think what worries liberals is not so much that this thing is intrusive, nor even that Bush may well have broken the law (plenty of Presidents have broken the law) but that Bush seems to be <i>boasting</i> of having broken the law or even stating that this is a precedent which he (and his successor) can draw on. The last time someone tried that ('when the president does something that means it's not illegal') he was dispatched very quickly and rightly so. Incidentally, I don't think that the comparisons between Bush et al and fascism are very apt. If I was an American I would be more worried by the comparisons that one could draw between the US and the Roman Republic about 100 years before the whole system collapsed and was replaced by the Empire. (On second thoughts, perhaps 50 years rather than 100). At the risk of wading in where angels with legal degrees fear to tread isn’t the salient point about the current situation (as opposed to Echelon) not to do with the nature of the monitoring, but about the fact that Bush may well have broken the law in doing it? I think what worries liberals is not so much that this thing is intrusive, nor even that Bush may well have broken the law (plenty of Presidents have broken the law) but that Bush seems to be boasting of having broken the law or even stating that this is a precedent which he (and his successor) can draw on. The last time someone tried that (‘when the president does something that means it’s not illegal’) he was dispatched very quickly and rightly so.

Incidentally, I don’t think that the comparisons between Bush et al and fascism are very apt. If I was an American I would be more worried by the comparisons that one could draw between the US and the Roman Republic about 100 years before the whole system collapsed and was replaced by the Empire.

(On second thoughts, perhaps 50 years rather than 100).

]]> By: rollo http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138254 rollo Sat, 14 Jan 2006 06:44:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138254 There's a lot of benefit to the iniquitous in arguing points of absurdity against the real claims of noble goals like human rights and justice, and freedom. Freedom's that thing the terrorists hate us for having so much of, or so we were told repeatedly at the beginning of all this. Speaking madness with a straight face and an assertive tone is a great weapon in the war against decency and common sense. It cheapens the venue, devalues it, makes it less meaningful; it asserts the power of the abuser to direct the dialog in whatever direction he chooses, legitimate and rational or not; it throws chaff into the radar space, and given enough volume over time will render the instruments useless. It is clearly and provably absurd to think this country's gone into a state of near lockdown against the threat of an enemy who could be enlightened by the information revealed. That it could possibly have been useful news to anyone actively involved in plotting dastardly exploits against America that international phone calls originating in the US were being monitored by government agencies and their computers, with or without legitimacy or warrants, is a bucket of chopped-up tinfoil. There’s a lot of benefit to the iniquitous in arguing points of absurdity against the real claims of noble goals like human rights and justice, and freedom.
Freedom’s that thing the terrorists hate us for having so much of, or so we were told repeatedly at the beginning of all this.
Speaking madness with a straight face and an assertive tone is a great weapon in the war against decency and common sense.
It cheapens the venue, devalues it, makes it less meaningful; it asserts the power of the abuser to direct the dialog in whatever direction he chooses, legitimate and rational or not; it throws chaff into the radar space, and given enough volume over time will render the instruments useless.
It is clearly and provably absurd to think this country’s gone into a state of near lockdown against the threat of an enemy who could be enlightened by the information revealed.
That it could possibly have been useful news to anyone actively involved in plotting dastardly exploits against America that international phone calls originating in the US were being monitored by government agencies and their computers, with or without legitimacy or warrants, is a bucket of chopped-up tinfoil.

]]> By: Functional http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138140 Functional Sat, 14 Jan 2006 00:04:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138140 "Delegitimize" -- no. It just gives a little context for the liberals who lament that we're descending into "fascism" and "monarchy." “Delegitimize”—no. It just gives a little context for the liberals who lament that we’re descending into “fascism” and “monarchy.”

]]> By: JJ http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138134 JJ Fri, 13 Jan 2006 21:57:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138134 RE #38: Some whining about Echelon: http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,32905,00.html http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,33026,00.html http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,32039,00.html Plenty of complaining. I found 87 Echelon-related articles listed on Wired.com alone, and a good number of them originated pre-9/11. Here's my question: Would the absence of whining about Echelon somehow delegitimize complaints about the Plame leak or about what the NSA is doing? JJ RE #38:
Some whining about Echelon:
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,32905,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,33026,00.html
http://www.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,32039,00.html

Plenty of complaining. I found 87 Echelon-related articles listed on Wired.com alone, and a good number of them originated pre-9/11.

Here’s my question: Would the absence of whining about Echelon somehow delegitimize complaints about the Plame leak or about what the NSA is doing?

JJ

]]> By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138099 MQ Fri, 13 Jan 2006 18:31:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138099 Well, I didn't like Echelon and I complained about it to my friends. Does that count? When you're a liberal you get used to being part of the silent disgruntled minority. As I said above, a legit response to this is that the 4th amendment is already a dead letter. But making noise as we pass each each signpost on the way to its demise seems worthwhile, puts down markers for a road back if that ever happens. Well, I didn’t like Echelon and I complained about it to my friends. Does that count? When you’re a liberal you get used to being part of the silent disgruntled minority.

As I said above, a legit response to this is that the 4th amendment is already a dead letter. But making noise as we pass each each signpost on the way to its demise seems worthwhile, puts down markers for a road back if that ever happens.

]]> By: Functional http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138079 Functional Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:08:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138079 Really? Who is "we"? When and where did you complain? Even now, when I search for Eschelon, I get mostly conspiracy websites, even though it was a legitimate story. Really? Who is “we”? When and where did you complain? Even now, when I search for Eschelon, I get mostly conspiracy websites, even though it was a legitimate story.

]]> By: Walt Pohl http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138074 Walt Pohl Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:58:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138074 38: We complained about Eschelon too. 38: We complained about Eschelon too.

]]> By: Functional http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138073 Functional Fri, 13 Jan 2006 14:48:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138073 MQ -- the program might not necessarily be "as you understand it." In fact, the program might be as I understand it, which <a href="http://volokh.com/posts/1136361964.shtml" rel="nofollow">means that you're wrong</a>. (Of course, we're all a little in the dark here.) BTW, I really find it hard to take seriously any of the liberals who are whining about the latest NSA program but didn't complain about the <a href="http://americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5150" rel="nofollow">overwhelmingly more intrusive</a> Echelon program. Talk about hypocrisy. MQ —the program might not necessarily be “as you understand it.” In fact, the program might be as I understand it, which means that you’re wrong. (Of course, we’re all a little in the dark here.)

BTW, I really find it hard to take seriously any of the liberals who are whining about the latest NSA program but didn’t complain about the overwhelmingly more intrusive Echelon program.

Talk about hypocrisy.

]]> By: Barry http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138063 Barry Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:29:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138063 Althouse and Reynolds and Hewitt (and a couple more of the Powerline crew) are lawyers; they're smart and have been through rigorous training about arguments and logic. They aren't fooled by these arguments, IMHO, they seek to fool others. Althouse and Reynolds and Hewitt (and a couple more of the Powerline crew) are lawyers; they’re smart and have been through rigorous training about arguments and logic. They aren’t fooled by these arguments, IMHO, they seek to fool others.

]]> By: MQ http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138055 MQ Fri, 13 Jan 2006 04:22:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138055 I actualy often wonder about whether certain conservative hacks really are idiots, or they have to make idiotic arguments because the policies they are trying to argue for are so bad and so inconsistent. My general belief is that the conservatives are smart people who have deliberately destroyed or turned off their ability to detect falsehoods or inconsistencies in the current Republican propaganda line. But Althouse somehow gives the impression that she never had the ability in the first place, and seems genuinely mystified when people point out the obvious contradictions in her argument. She is a law professor, though. So probably I'm inferring wrong, and she is a Republican hack who possesses intelligence but chooses not to use it when it comes to policy or politics. That would make her not an idiot. But as an idiot she would have a lot more integrity, so I don't know which is better. Perhaps she really doesn't see the contradiction, in which case she is an idiot but an honest one. Also, as I understand it the NSA wiretap program under discussion requires one party in the U.S., so comment #34 is off. There is a non-idiotic argument to be made here, which is hey, you don't have any rights anyway, it's not like the secret rubberstamp warrant court was really protecting them, so why make such a fuss? I don't hear it a lot, but I suspect it underlies some peoples thinking. I actualy often wonder about whether certain conservative hacks really are idiots, or they have to make idiotic arguments because the policies they are trying to argue for are so bad and so inconsistent. My general belief is that the conservatives are smart people who have deliberately destroyed or turned off their ability to detect falsehoods or inconsistencies in the current Republican propaganda line. But Althouse somehow gives the impression that she never had the ability in the first place, and seems genuinely mystified when people point out the obvious contradictions in her argument. She is a law professor, though. So probably I’m inferring wrong, and she is a Republican hack who possesses intelligence but chooses not to use it when it comes to policy or politics. That would make her not an idiot. But as an idiot she would have a lot more integrity, so I don’t know which is better. Perhaps she really doesn’t see the contradiction, in which case she is an idiot but an honest one.

Also, as I understand it the NSA wiretap program under discussion requires one party in the U.S., so comment #34 is off.

There is a non-idiotic argument to be made here, which is hey, you don’t have any rights anyway, it’s not like the secret rubberstamp warrant court was really protecting them, so why make such a fuss? I don’t hear it a lot, but I suspect it underlies some peoples thinking.

]]> By: Peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138050 Peter Fri, 13 Jan 2006 02:35:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138050 <blockquote><em>The NSA leak informed terrorists that not only could their calls to and from the US be monitored, but that calls between to places outside the US might be monitored by the US. </em></blockquote> Wrong. The NSA leak informed American citizens that their telephone conversations to/from the US are monitored in violation of FISA. <blockquote><em>We've had discussions with members of Congress, certain members of Congress, about whether or not we could get an amendment to FISA, and we were advised that that was not likely to be — that was not something we could likely get, certainly not without jeopardizing the existence of the program, and therefore, killing the program.</em></blockquote> That is Attorney General Gonzales admitting that the program was so illegal that they couldn't get Congress to legitimize it. <a href="http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/12/20051219-1.html" rel="nofollow">Source</a>
The NSA leak informed terrorists that not only could their calls to and from the US be monitored, but that calls between to places outside the US might be monitored by the US.
Wrong. The NSA leak informed American citizens that their telephone conversations to/from the US are monitored in violation of FISA.
We’ve had discussions with members of Congress, certain members of Congress, about whether or not we could get an amendment to FISA, and we were advised that that was not likely to be — that was not something we could likely get, certainly not without jeopardizing the existence of the program, and therefore, killing the program.
That is Attorney General Gonzales admitting that the program was so illegal that they couldn’t get Congress to legitimize it.
Source

]]> By: Functional http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-138031 Functional Fri, 13 Jan 2006 00:44:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-138031 <i>After all, we have to expect that terrorists would have known their communications could be listened to; I still don’t understand how it helps them to know that they were being tapped without warrants, rather than with them. </i> And I still don't understand why seemingly intelligent people frame the issue in this way. The NSA leak revealed: "The NSA is monitoring via an innovative program that tracks international calls that traverse U.S. telephone switches, and it does so without a warrant." You're framing the issue as if the only leak were about the last phrase of that sentence: "without a warrant." This is a stupid way to frame the issue, when OBVIOUSLY the harmful part of the leak was what it revealed about the NATURE of the NSA program. After all, we have to expect that terrorists would have known their communications could be listened to; I still don’t understand how it helps them to know that they were being tapped without warrants, rather than with them.

And I still don’t understand why seemingly intelligent people frame the issue in this way.

The NSA leak revealed: “The NSA is monitoring via an innovative program that tracks international calls that traverse U.S. telephone switches, and it does so without a warrant.”

You’re framing the issue as if the only leak were about the last phrase of that sentence: “without a warrant.”

This is a stupid way to frame the issue, when OBVIOUSLY the harmful part of the leak was what it revealed about the NATURE of the NSA program.

]]> By: Anderson http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-137953 Anderson Thu, 12 Jan 2006 23:27:03 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-137953 It's not a slur if she really *is* a complete idiot. For which ample evidence has been presented. God help her students. I wish some graduates would blog her up. It’s not a slur if she really is a complete idiot. For which ample evidence has been presented.

God help her students. I wish some graduates would blog her up.

]]> By: Pooh http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/comment-page-1/#comment-137926 Pooh Thu, 12 Jan 2006 22:41:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/12/this-post-is-one-of-the-biggest-wastes-of-time-of-my-lifetime/#comment-137926 Is it really a 'slur' to question someone's intelligence? The criticism may be unfounded or flat out wrong, but I don't see it as rising to the level of a slur. Is it really a ‘slur’ to question someone’s intelligence? The criticism may be unfounded or flat out wrong, but I don’t see it as rising to the level of a slur.

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