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	<title>Comments on: Beware of economics geeks bearing gifts</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: rd</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141605</link>
		<dc:creator>rd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:57:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141605</guid>
		<description>Daniel,
Hmmm, you&#039;ve made the &quot;crime against Russia&quot; argument before and the remark in comment #5 about &quot;the tendency of neoliberals to blame &#039;corruption&#039; for the failure of neoliberal policies&quot; made me think you though the accusations against Schliefer et al were just another piece of the same picture. If not, my apologies for an off topic comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Daniel,<br />
Hmmm, you&#8217;ve made the &#8220;crime against Russia&#8221; argument before and the remark in comment #5 about &#8220;the tendency of neoliberals to blame &#8216;corruption&#8217; for the failure of neoliberal policies&#8221; made me think you though the accusations against Schliefer et al were just another piece of the same picture. If not, my apologies for an off topic comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141454</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 16:02:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141454</guid>
		<description>Three thoughts:

1.  &lt;i&gt;” in Washington I wasn’t ever smart enough to predict them [ethics rules]. . . things that seemed very ethical to me were thought of as problematic and things that seemed quite problematic to me were thought of as perfectly fine. . . .”&lt;/i&gt;

Further evidence, if any is needed, that economists simply do not understand normal human behavior.  Economics is an academic study of some alien species, not any human society we know. 

2.  Jeffrey Sachs seems to have moved on from his Russian experiences:  He now seems to be saying that corruption in Africa is nothing to get upset about.

3.  Is nepotism necessarily bad?  The best US Attorney-General in the 20th century was the President&#039;s own brother.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Three thoughts:</p>

	<p>1.  <i>&#8221; in Washington I wasn&#8217;t ever smart enough to predict them [ethics rules]. . . things that seemed very ethical to me were thought of as problematic and things that seemed quite problematic to me were thought of as perfectly fine. . . .&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>Further evidence, if any is needed, that economists simply do not understand normal human behavior.  Economics is an academic study of some alien species, not any human society we know.</p>

	<p>2.  Jeffrey Sachs seems to have moved on from his Russian experiences:  He now seems to be saying that corruption in Africa is nothing to get upset about.</p>

	<p>3.  Is nepotism necessarily bad?  The best <span class="caps">US </span>Attorney-General in the 20th century was the President&#8217;s own brother.</p>
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		<title>By: nnyhav</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141446</link>
		<dc:creator>nnyhav</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 13:37:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141446</guid>
		<description>What, no link to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.economicprincipals.com/issues/05.12.04.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;prior article&lt;/a&gt; on Harvard looking at corruption?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What, no link to the <a href="http://www.economicprincipals.com/issues/05.12.04.html" rel="nofollow">prior article</a> on Harvard looking at corruption?</p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141430</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 05:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141430</guid>
		<description>John Emerson: was that a witty self-deprecation or an amusing variant on the &quot;Americans are all descended from immigrants&quot; boast?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John Emerson: was that a witty self-deprecation or an amusing variant on the &#8220;Americans are all descended from immigrants&#8221; boast?</p>
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		<title>By: Rodger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141300</link>
		<dc:creator>Rodger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 19:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141300</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thenation.com/doc/19980601/wedel&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;The Harvard Boys Do Russia&quot;&lt;/a&gt; was published in the June 1, 1998 editon of &lt;i&gt;The Nation,/i&gt;, by Janine R. Wedel.

May I also recommend her &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-0312238282-0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Collision and Collusion: The Strange Case of Western Aid to Eastern Europe&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt; (Palgrave Macmillan, 1998, 2001)?&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.thenation.com/doc/19980601/wedel" rel="nofollow">&#8220;The Harvard Boys Do Russia&#8221;</a> was published in the June 1, 1998 editon of <i>The Nation,/i>, by Janine R. Wedel.</i></p>

	<p>May I also recommend her <a href="http://www.powells.com/biblio/61-0312238282-0" rel="nofollow"><i>Collision and Collusion: The Strange Case of Western Aid to Eastern Europe</i></a> (Palgrave Macmillan, 1998, 2001)?</p>
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		<title>By: wcw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141283</link>
		<dc:creator>wcw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 17:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141283</guid>
		<description>The crime is always what&#039;s legal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The crime is always what&#8217;s legal.</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141187</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:14:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141187</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;” in Washington I wasn’t ever smart enough to predict them [ethics rules]. . . things that seemed very ethical to me were thought of as problematic and things that seemed quite problematic to me were thought of as perfectly fine. . . .”&lt;/i&gt;

I don&#039;t know--that&#039;s how I feel about lobbying rules.   My trade association can give someone $100,000 for his election campaign, and publish a list of &quot;most important goals for the next legislative session&quot;--but if I buy him dinner at Outback, its an &quot;appearance of corruption&quot;?  Huh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8221; in Washington I wasn&#8217;t ever smart enough to predict them [ethics rules]. . . things that seemed very ethical to me were thought of as problematic and things that seemed quite problematic to me were thought of as perfectly fine. . . .&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t know&#8212;that&#8217;s how I feel about lobbying rules.   My trade association can give someone $100,000 for his election campaign, and publish a list of &#8220;most important goals for the next legislative session&#8221;&#8212;but if I buy him dinner at Outback, its an &#8220;appearance of corruption&#8221;?  Huh?</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141178</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:44:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141178</guid>
		<description>Well, the Starlite opened pretty early on. 92 or 3 I think, when the only other non-Russian food was McDonald’s. He also opened Uncle Gilly’s which might redeem him a touch. And was a (successful) investment banker in the US and then again in Moscow.

Myself? Freely admit to being in the know nothing school. Started out there in offshore programming, about which I knew nothing, distributed newspapers, about which less and ended up in the metals trade, about which now I know a lot but then nothing. Put me in the chancers section, a group not directly mentioned above.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, the Starlite opened pretty early on. 92 or 3 I think, when the only other non-Russian food was McDonald&#8217;s. He also opened Uncle Gilly&#8217;s which might redeem him a touch. And was a (successful) investment banker in the US and then again in Moscow.</p>

	<p>Myself? Freely admit to being in the know nothing school. Started out there in offshore programming, about which I knew nothing, distributed newspapers, about which less and ended up in the metals trade, about which now I know a lot but then nothing. Put me in the chancers section, a group not directly mentioned above.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141176</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141176</guid>
		<description>Expats anywhere seem to be people with problems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Expats anywhere seem to be people with problems.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141173</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 13:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141173</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Tim, but still, the Starlite Diner itself should get someone sent to a labor camp.  Crappy over-priced food with an extra helping kitsch thrown in.  Just for starting the place your friend should have been Podyesed.  Also, it&#039;s important to remember that many folks there at the time (I&#039;m not saying anything about Tim, here) were folks who, for various reasons, could not make it at home and were unqualified losers or screw-ups of various sorts.  I&#039;ve met more than a few &quot;investment bankers&quot; or the like who worked there who had no experience at all.  That certainly didn&#039;t help things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yeah, Tim, but still, the Starlite Diner itself should get someone sent to a labor camp.  Crappy over-priced food with an extra helping kitsch thrown in.  Just for starting the place your friend should have been Podyesed.  Also, it&#8217;s important to remember that many folks there at the time (I&#8217;m not saying anything about Tim, here) were folks who, for various reasons, could not make it at home and were unqualified losers or screw-ups of various sorts.  I&#8217;ve met more than a few &#8220;investment bankers&#8221; or the like who worked there who had no experience at all.  That certainly didn&#8217;t help things.</p>
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		<title>By: John Emerson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141161</link>
		<dc:creator>John Emerson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 12:14:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141161</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think I’ll save that debate for a time and place where people are more in the mood to read what I have written.&lt;/i&gt;

Tomorrow will be fine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I think I&#8217;ll save that debate for a time and place where people are more in the mood to read what I have written.</i></p>

	<p>Tomorrow will be fine.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141156</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 11:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141156</guid>
		<description>A great find that article, Daniel:

&quot;Moscow by then was crowded with foreigners eager to help Russia and get in on the ground floor of a great social and economic change. Entrepreneurs, consultants, lawyers, bankers and academics with foundation grants, as well as fast-buck artists and swindlers from all over the world, swarmed across Russia looking for a piece of the action.&quot;

Certainly got that right although I refuse to comment on which group I belonged to.

The taxation stuff was norml for the time, being paid offshore etc, girlfriends on the company payroll? Standard practice for both western and Russian firms.

Worth noting that others not part of the Harvard gang did very well by being honest and legal (Berkeley Capital, Troika Dialog, the latter run by a friend who was also the owner of the Starlite Diner where so many of the meetings mentioned took place) and others who did very well by not being so. CSFB comes to mind with thir front-running of the order book.

Richard Layard was also out there for a time and could be pretty scathing about the Harvard group. As, indeed, were many of those I knew in the financial world. Beer time gossip was really centered around the fact that if you were going to be corrupt, play by Russian rules, then at least make pot loads of cash doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A great find that article, Daniel:</p>

	<p>&#8220;Moscow by then was crowded with foreigners eager to help Russia and get in on the ground floor of a great social and economic change. Entrepreneurs, consultants, lawyers, bankers and academics with foundation grants, as well as fast-buck artists and swindlers from all over the world, swarmed across Russia looking for a piece of the action.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Certainly got that right although I refuse to comment on which group I belonged to.</p>

	<p>The taxation stuff was norml for the time, being paid offshore etc, girlfriends on the company payroll? Standard practice for both western and Russian firms.</p>

	<p>Worth noting that others not part of the Harvard gang did very well by being honest and legal (Berkeley Capital, Troika Dialog, the latter run by a friend who was also the owner of the Starlite Diner where so many of the meetings mentioned took place) and others who did very well by not being so. <span class="caps">CSFB</span> comes to mind with thir front-running of the order book.</p>

	<p>Richard Layard was also out there for a time and could be pretty scathing about the Harvard group. As, indeed, were many of those I knew in the financial world. Beer time gossip was really centered around the fact that if you were going to be corrupt, play by Russian rules, then at least make pot loads of cash doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141134</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 07:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141134</guid>
		<description>The country is devastated with the help and blessing of a handful of American academics and their evil theories.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The country is devastated with the help and blessing of a handful of American academics and their evil theories.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141130</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 06:02:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141130</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;Ah yes, another version of the “crime against Russia,” in which the country is devastated by a handful of American academics and their evil theories&lt;/i&gt;

No, there is actually no mention of this in either my own article or the II one I link to.  I think you are wrong on this, but I think I&#039;ll save that debate for a time and place where people are more in the mood to read what I have written.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>Ah yes, another version of the &#8220;crime against Russia,&#8221; in which the country is devastated by a handful of American academics and their evil theories</i></p>

	<p>No, there is actually no mention of this in either my own article or the II one I link to.  I think you are wrong on this, but I think I&#8217;ll save that debate for a time and place where people are more in the mood to read what I have written.</p>
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		<title>By: save_the_rustbelt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/23/beware-of-economics-geeks-bearing-gifts/comment-page-1/#comment-141128</link>
		<dc:creator>save_the_rustbelt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Jan 2006 04:50:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4241#comment-141128</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve never met a Harvard MBA who had enough ethics to fill a thimble.

Apparently in the intellectual big leagues ethics are not a major topic of study or reflection.

And no one should ever let an economist manage anything other than the economics department.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve never met a Harvard <span class="caps">MBA</span> who had enough ethics to fill a thimble.</p>

	<p>Apparently in the intellectual big leagues ethics are not a major topic of study or reflection.</p>

	<p>And no one should ever let an economist manage anything other than the economics department.</p>
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