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	<title>Comments on: Support fund</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141803</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 21:25:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141803</guid>
		<description>mpowell, I think that&#039;s a perfectly reasonable criteria, whether narrowly or broadly drawn. I expect a fair number of people would agree with your narrow version of it, although if they were to apply the principle more broadly they&#039;d balk (there are quite literally billions of people worse off than West Virginia coal miners in this world...).

Another criteria for those of us in academia or related fields has to do with both the health/well-being (as well as justice) regarding how people are treated in our profession. When University administrations (and, sadly, enabling faculty) use reactionary Bush-appointee NLRB decisions to bust unions and threaten the livelihoods (and therefore careers) of graduate students, well, that feels like our business. At least it does to me. I feel as though I have an interest in being part of a profession that reacts strongly against this sort of treatment. Just another rationale for me, and probably for a number of readers of this blog, who skew toward that profession.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>mpowell, I think that&#8217;s a perfectly reasonable criteria, whether narrowly or broadly drawn. I expect a fair number of people would agree with your narrow version of it, although if they were to apply the principle more broadly they&#8217;d balk (there are quite literally billions of people worse off than West Virginia coal miners in this world&#8230;).</p>

	<p>Another criteria for those of us in academia or related fields has to do with both the health/well-being (as well as justice) regarding how people are treated in our profession. When University administrations (and, sadly, enabling faculty) use reactionary Bush-appointee <span class="caps">NLRB</span> decisions to bust unions and threaten the livelihoods (and therefore careers) of graduate students, well, that feels like our business. At least it does to me. I feel as though I have an interest in being part of a profession that reacts strongly against this sort of treatment. Just another rationale for me, and probably for a number of readers of this blog, who skew toward that profession.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141707</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:35:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141707</guid>
		<description>No, I&#039;m pretty sure the preview was acting flaky.  Or my browser is.  Anyway, type this without the spaces.  

&amp; l t ;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, I&#8217;m pretty sure the preview was acting flaky.  Or my browser is.  Anyway, type this without the spaces.</p>

	<p>&#038; l t ;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141706</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:34:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141706</guid>
		<description>OK, now I messed up again, and I didn&#039;t look at the preview:

&lt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, now I messed up again, and I didn&#8217;t look at the preview:</p>

	<p>&lt;</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141705</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 02:34:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141705</guid>
		<description>I messed up -- should be &lt;  

(I take it the point is it&#039;s hard to live in NYC on a small salary.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I messed up&#8212;should be &lt;</p>

	<p>(I take it the point is it&#8217;s hard to live in <span class="caps">NYC</span> on a small salary.)</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141625</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 01:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141625</guid>
		<description>Thanks.  I guess the intended point is clear enough!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks.  I guess the intended point is clear enough!</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Weiner</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141622</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Weiner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jan 2006 00:10:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141622</guid>
		<description>eweininger: To make a &lt; type &amp;amplt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>eweininger: To make a < type &amplt;</p>
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		<title>By: GKurtz</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141621</link>
		<dc:creator>GKurtz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:50:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141621</guid>
		<description>Kenny &amp; Josh, I don&#039;t think we&#039;re disagreeing substantially. What I wanted to respond to was the general squeemishness in this discussion about the issue of pay, and it seemed to me that you each had, perhaps unintentionally, contributed to that.

As for the idea that contributing to the strike fund is an act of &quot;charity&quot; -- maybe this is a Britishism (I don&#039;t know who in this discussion is from where) or something, but I cringe at that word in this context. &quot;Charity,&quot; to my ears, means the kind of direct meeting of needs you get through, say, a soup kitchen. Politics--including union politics--is something else, and political decisions are (or should be) governed by more strategic and less emotional criteria than charitable decisions (Weber, anyone?): whether the plight of NYU grad students pulls our heart-strings matters less than the importance of the NYU strike in the broader academic labor movement, and the place of the academic labor movement in the US labor movement in general. By both of those criteria, I&#039;d say the NYU strike is fairly important--but that&#039;s a longer argument (parts of which have been covered before on Crooked Timber--see the posts Henry links to in comment #9).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kenny &#038; Josh, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re disagreeing substantially. What I wanted to respond to was the general squeemishness in this discussion about the issue of pay, and it seemed to me that you each had, perhaps unintentionally, contributed to that.</p>

	<p>As for the idea that contributing to the strike fund is an act of &#8220;charity&#8221;&#8212;maybe this is a Britishism (I don&#8217;t know who in this discussion is from where) or something, but I cringe at that word in this context. &#8220;Charity,&#8221; to my ears, means the kind of direct meeting of needs you get through, say, a soup kitchen. Politics&#8212;including union politics&#8212;is something else, and political decisions are (or should be) governed by more strategic and less emotional criteria than charitable decisions (Weber, anyone?): whether the plight of <span class="caps">NYU</span> grad students pulls our heart-strings matters less than the importance of the <span class="caps">NYU</span> strike in the broader academic labor movement, and the place of the academic labor movement in the US labor movement in general. By both of those criteria, I&#8217;d say the <span class="caps">NYU</span> strike is fairly important&#8212;but that&#8217;s a longer argument (parts of which have been covered before on Crooked Timber&#8212;see the posts Henry links to in comment #9).</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141620</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141620</guid>
		<description>djw,

I think there is another important criterion which is that grad school is generally an optional vocation for reasonably intelligent people who could therefore be otherwise profitably employed.  When you are talking about coal miners in West Virginia, that is really not the case.  So even though there may be people worse off elsewhere, the coal miners do get more of my support.  And maybe I&#039;m mistaken, but I find it hard to believe that looking at it this way, a lot of people wouldn&#039;t agree.  

I&#039;ve observed people in these comment threads suggest similar sentiments, but they usually follow it up with at least somewhat disparaging remarks about their unionization efforts.  But I&#039;ll cheer them on instead.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>djw,</p>

	<p>I think there is another important criterion which is that grad school is generally an optional vocation for reasonably intelligent people who could therefore be otherwise profitably employed.  When you are talking about coal miners in West Virginia, that is really not the case.  So even though there may be people worse off elsewhere, the coal miners do get more of my support.  And maybe I&#8217;m mistaken, but I find it hard to believe that looking at it this way, a lot of people wouldn&#8217;t agree.</p>

	<p>I&#8217;ve observed people in these comment threads suggest similar sentiments, but they usually follow it up with at least somewhat disparaging remarks about their unionization efforts.  But I&#8217;ll cheer them on instead.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141619</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 23:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141619</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;But I was just suggesting that if there’s going to be a charity, there are other graduate students not too far away that need it even more.&lt;/i&gt;

No they don&#039;t; they&#039;re not on strike.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>But I was just suggesting that if there&#8217;s going to be a charity, there are other graduate students not too far away that need it even more.</i></p>

	<p>No they don&#8217;t; they&#8217;re not on strike.</p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141609</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141609</guid>
		<description>In response to gkurtz: I certainly don&#039;t think that only dirt poor people should seek more money than they already have, and don&#039;t think I said anything to give that impression (on the other hand, I am more sympathetic to the struggle of poor people to earn more than they do, than to the efforts of people who are already well off to do so; this doesn&#039;t mean that I oppose the latter, but my sympathies are stirred less strongly, and I&#039;m less likely to become active on their behalf. Surely this isn&#039;t such a strange position?) Nor did I mean the distinction between power and pay to be one between legitimacy and illegitimacy. I did, however, mean to suggest that focussing attention only on the issue of pay is likely to make us miss the reason that many people support grad student unionisation. And I do think that the pay argument, while not illegitimate, is a less compelling one in many cases, precisely because, in many cases of grad student unionisation, people CAN (and, as we&#039;ve seen, do) make the argument that grad students don&#039;t have it so bad, pay-wise; whereas the argument about power seems to me harder to dismiss.
Also, on the issue of respect that gkurtz raises:  I would associate respect, in this case, more with power than with wages, though certainly low wages suggests a lack of respect; but the point is, in many cases the wages that grad students at private uinversities are paid aren&#039;t insulting or humiliating, and the respect issues are connected to lack of power, including collective bargaining rights, rather than poor pay. Gkurtz raises these issues as if they&#039;re connected to pay, and focussing on power ignores them; but they seem to me distinct from pay, and more closely connected to power.
I&#039;d also point out that there are issues with working conditions other than pay. At least at some of the universities with which I&#039;m familiar, the grievances of pro-union students seem to be more about having to teach too much, or teach classes that they don&#039;t want to and aren&#039;t qualified to teach, or being relied upon to do teaching that should be done by (a shrinking pool of tenured) faculty, than it is about not getting enough money. Which is why, for the advocates of grad student unionisation I know, the issue of whether grad students are economically disadvantaged or inadequately payed isn&#039;t the main issue.
In other words, it isn&#039;t that pay isn&#039;t a valid reason for efforts to unionise grad students, at NYU or elsewhere; it&#039;s that pay isn&#039;t the only, or even the most important, reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In response to gkurtz: I certainly don&#8217;t think that only dirt poor people should seek more money than they already have, and don&#8217;t think I said anything to give that impression (on the other hand, I am more sympathetic to the struggle of poor people to earn more than they do, than to the efforts of people who are already well off to do so; this doesn&#8217;t mean that I oppose the latter, but my sympathies are stirred less strongly, and I&#8217;m less likely to become active on their behalf. Surely this isn&#8217;t such a strange position?) Nor did I mean the distinction between power and pay to be one between legitimacy and illegitimacy. I did, however, mean to suggest that focussing attention only on the issue of pay is likely to make us miss the reason that many people support grad student unionisation. And I do think that the pay argument, while not illegitimate, is a less compelling one in many cases, precisely because, in many cases of grad student unionisation, people <span class="caps">CAN </span>(and, as we&#8217;ve seen, do) make the argument that grad students don&#8217;t have it so bad, pay-wise; whereas the argument about power seems to me harder to dismiss.<br />
Also, on the issue of respect that gkurtz raises:  I would associate respect, in this case, more with power than with wages, though certainly low wages suggests a lack of respect; but the point is, in many cases the wages that grad students at private uinversities are paid aren&#8217;t insulting or humiliating, and the respect issues are connected to lack of power, including collective bargaining rights, rather than poor pay. Gkurtz raises these issues as if they&#8217;re connected to pay, and focussing on power ignores them; but they seem to me distinct from pay, and more closely connected to power.<br />
I&#8217;d also point out that there are issues with working conditions other than pay. At least at some of the universities with which I&#8217;m familiar, the grievances of pro-union students seem to be more about having to teach too much, or teach classes that they don&#8217;t want to and aren&#8217;t qualified to teach, or being relied upon to do teaching that should be done by (a shrinking pool of tenured) faculty, than it is about not getting enough money. Which is why, for the advocates of grad student unionisation I know, the issue of whether grad students are economically disadvantaged or inadequately payed isn&#8217;t the main issue.<br />
In other words, it isn&#8217;t that pay isn&#8217;t a valid reason for efforts to unionise grad students, at <span class="caps">NYU</span> or elsewhere; it&#8217;s that pay isn&#8217;t the only, or even the most important, reason.</p>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141608</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141608</guid>
		<description></description>
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		<title>By: eweininger</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141607</link>
		<dc:creator>eweininger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 21:25:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141607</guid>
		<description>A small point of clarification: CUNY grad students do not have their &quot;own&quot; union; they have the option of joining the Professional Staff Congress, which is the full-timer&#039;s (i.e. tenured/tenure trackers&#039;) union. Or at least that was the situation when I left in 01.  At the same time, there was a great deal of agitation among grad students over the level of representation provided them by the PSC.  Things may have changed since, though on the basis of what I learn from my friends who are still in the system, I doubt it has been dramatic.

Living in NYC on </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A small point of clarification: <span class="caps">CUNY</span> grad students do not have their &#8220;own&#8221; union; they have the option of joining the Professional Staff Congress, which is the full-timer&#8217;s (i.e. tenured/tenure trackers&#8217;) union. Or at least that was the situation when I left in 01.  At the same time, there was a great deal of agitation among grad students over the level of representation provided them by the <span class="caps">PSC</span>.  Things may have changed since, though on the basis of what I learn from my friends who are still in the system, I doubt it has been dramatic.</p>

	<p>Living in <span class="caps">NYC</span> on</p>
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		<title>By: Cala</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141603</link>
		<dc:creator>Cala</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:41:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141603</guid>
		<description>Point of clarification:  I thought NYU had decided not to blacklist TA&#039;s that had struck, and so pay this semester wasn&#039;t affected by last semester&#039;s strike.

Is this information inaccurate?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Point of clarification:  I thought <span class="caps">NYU</span> had decided not to blacklist TA&#8217;s that had struck, and so pay this semester wasn&#8217;t affected by last semester&#8217;s strike.</p>

	<p>Is this information inaccurate?</p>
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		<title>By: djw</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141600</link>
		<dc:creator>djw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 20:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141600</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I’m surprised that so few people seem to hold this position.&lt;/i&gt;

Probably because for many of us absolute deprivation rate is only one factor amongst many in our allotment of charity. To take your logic a bit further, there&#039;d be no plausible justification for financially supporting any strike fund in the US or the West generally, as there are much worse off and needy people than even janitors and farm workers all over the world. I&#039;m not criticizing this criteria for allocating charity, it&#039;s not a bad one I don&#039;t think. But it does diverge pretty sharply from how just about everyone actually allocates charitable resources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I&#8217;m surprised that so few people seem to hold this position.</i></p>

	<p>Probably because for many of us absolute deprivation rate is only one factor amongst many in our allotment of charity. To take your logic a bit further, there&#8217;d be no plausible justification for financially supporting any strike fund in the US or the West generally, as there are much worse off and needy people than even janitors and farm workers all over the world. I&#8217;m not criticizing this criteria for allocating charity, it&#8217;s not a bad one I don&#8217;t think. But it does diverge pretty sharply from how just about everyone actually allocates charitable resources.</p>
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		<title>By: mpowell</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/comment-page-1/#comment-141596</link>
		<dc:creator>mpowell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Jan 2006 19:45:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/24/support-fund/#comment-141596</guid>
		<description>This debate always seems really weird to me.  I just don&#039;t understand how people can argue that grad students shouldn&#039;t want to or shouldn&#039;t be allowed to unionize.  It all comes back to the pretty simple  matter that gkurtz highlights- people would be crazy not to push for more money if they could.  And you have to be anti-labor to argue that they shouldn&#039;t be allowed to.

That being said, I&#039;m not particularly sympathetic to the grad students&#039; cause.  What I mean is that I&#039;m not likely to donate to their fund or whatever.  And my reason is pretty simple: people who choose to be grad students generally have other better options.  And they also aren&#039;t at the very bottom anyhow.  So my attitude is: more power to them if they can do better, but don&#039;t look to me for help.  I&#039;m surprised that so few people seem to hold this position.  I guess its b/c most of you guys are in academics so it impacts most of you pretty strongly one way or the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This debate always seems really weird to me.  I just don&#8217;t understand how people can argue that grad students shouldn&#8217;t want to or shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to unionize.  It all comes back to the pretty simple  matter that gkurtz highlights- people would be crazy not to push for more money if they could.  And you have to be anti-labor to argue that they shouldn&#8217;t be allowed to.</p>

	<p>That being said, I&#8217;m not particularly sympathetic to the grad students&#8217; cause.  What I mean is that I&#8217;m not likely to donate to their fund or whatever.  And my reason is pretty simple: people who choose to be grad students generally have other better options.  And they also aren&#8217;t at the very bottom anyhow.  So my attitude is: more power to them if they can do better, but don&#8217;t look to me for help.  I&#8217;m surprised that so few people seem to hold this position.  I guess its b/c most of you guys are in academics so it impacts most of you pretty strongly one way or the other.</p>
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