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	<title>Comments on: Goldsmith and torture</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142176</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 14:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142176</guid>
		<description>Lawgirl, it&#039;s been made pretty clear by your citeless claims that you hold most dear the protection and extension of secret presidential power, despite the law.

So there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Lawgirl, it&#8217;s been made pretty clear by your citeless claims that you hold most dear the protection and extension of secret presidential power, despite the law.</p>

	<p>So there.</p>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142134</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 06:27:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142134</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I think you have made quite clear what your real interest is; I gather that, in your view, the good of tipping the election against Bush is greatly outweighs any legal or ethical restriction.&lt;/i&gt;

What of it? We haven&#039;t yet established that there was any legal or ethical restriction to balance against the great good of getting the bozo out of the presidency.

Why not provide something about legal or ethical restrictions?

If the stuff was wrong, making it highly classified shouldn&#039;t protect it. Of course there&#039;s always a risk being a whistleblower. If you report secrets and they don&#039;t turn out to be illegal after all, you could get in a lot of trouble. But then, since Nuremburg we&#039;ve said that &quot;I was only following orders&quot; is not an acceptable defense. So you could possibly get in trouble not reporting the crimes too.

So where&#039;s the argument?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I think you have made quite clear what your real interest is; I gather that, in your view, the good of tipping the election against Bush is greatly outweighs any legal or ethical restriction.</i></p>

	<p>What of it? We haven&#8217;t yet established that there was any legal or ethical restriction to balance against the great good of getting the bozo out of the presidency.</p>

	<p>Why not provide something about legal or ethical restrictions?</p>

	<p>If the stuff was wrong, making it highly classified shouldn&#8217;t protect it. Of course there&#8217;s always a risk being a whistleblower. If you report secrets and they don&#8217;t turn out to be illegal after all, you could get in a lot of trouble. But then, since Nuremburg we&#8217;ve said that &#8220;I was only following orders&#8221; is not an acceptable defense. So you could possibly get in trouble not reporting the crimes too.</p>

	<p>So where&#8217;s the argument?</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Edenbaum</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142130</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Edenbaum</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 05:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142130</guid>
		<description>Follow the links from &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003594.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Laura Rozen&lt;/a&gt;:
Why is it that conservatives seem to need the permission of their superiors to have an opinion about the constitutionality of WH policy?
And Lawgal, you haven&#039;t answered the rest of us.  Why not a loud and public - and perfectly legal- silence?   
&#039;Courtesy&#039; to his old friends?

Fuck&#039;em</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Follow the links from <a href="http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/003594.html" rel="nofollow">Laura Rozen</a>:<br />
Why is it that conservatives seem to need the permission of their superiors to have an opinion about the constitutionality of WH policy?<br />
And Lawgal, you haven&#8217;t answered the rest of us.  Why not a loud and public &#8211; and perfectly legal- silence?<br />
&#8216;Courtesy&#8217; to his old friends?</p>

	<p>Fuck&#8217;em</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: thelawgal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142124</link>
		<dc:creator>thelawgal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 03:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142124</guid>
		<description>Barry, 

I think you have made quite clear what your real interest is; I gather that, in your view, the good of tipping the election against Bush is greatly outweighs any legal or ethical restriction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Barry,</p>

	<p>I think you have made quite clear what your real interest is; I gather that, in your view, the good of tipping the election against Bush is greatly outweighs any legal or ethical restriction.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142089</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 19:33:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142089</guid>
		<description>What really steams me about this, and about the NYT&#039;s withholding of the NSA scandals, is that I now believe that there was enough dirt on Bush to have tipped the election.  A lot of people deliberately kept silent when they could have made a difference; I give them little or no credit to speak up when it&#039;s too late to make much of a difference.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>What really steams me about this, and about the <span class="caps">NYT</span>&#8217;s withholding of the <span class="caps">NSA</span> scandals, is that I now believe that there was enough dirt on Bush to have tipped the election.  A lot of people deliberately kept silent when they could have made a difference; I give them little or no credit to speak up when it&#8217;s too late to make much of a difference.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142080</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 18:18:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142080</guid>
		<description>You got citation in my post!
Well, you got post in my citation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>You got citation in my post!<br />
Well, you got post in my citation!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142074</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142074</guid>
		<description>Sorry for the redundancy, Barry.  Our posts passed on the Information Superhighway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry for the redundancy, Barry.  Our posts passed on the Information Superhighway.</p>
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		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142073</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:17:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142073</guid>
		<description>Furthermore, government security classification explicitly may not be used to cover up criminal activity.  It is not a crime to reveal wrongly classified information.  C.f. Daniel Ellsberg.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Furthermore, government security classification explicitly may not be used to cover up criminal activity.  It is not a crime to reveal wrongly classified information.  C.f. Daniel Ellsberg.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142072</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:13:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142072</guid>
		<description>As I understand it, classification can&#039;t be used to cover up crimes.  In addition, Goldsmith could have gone to members of Congress who were authorized for oversight.

As a last resort, he could have gone public, and stated that the administration was committing crimes, whose natures he couldn&#039;t reveal due to classification.

All of which, if done during 2004, might have tipped the election.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>As I understand it, classification can&#8217;t be used to cover up crimes.  In addition, Goldsmith could have gone to members of Congress who were authorized for oversight.</p>

	<p>As a last resort, he could have gone public, and stated that the administration was committing crimes, whose natures he couldn&#8217;t reveal due to classification.</p>

	<p>All of which, if done during 2004, might have tipped the election.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: anon</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142071</link>
		<dc:creator>anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 17:12:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142071</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.cornell.edu/ethics/aba/current/ABA_CODE.HTM#Rule_1.6&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Model Rules of Professional Conduct, American Bar Association:&lt;/a&gt;

Rule 1.6: Confidentiality of Information

(a) A lawyer shall not reveal information relating to the representation of a client unless the client gives informed consent, the disclosure is impliedly authorized in order to carry out the representation or the disclosure is permitted by paragraph (b).

(b) A lawyer may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to the extent the lawyer reasonably believes necessary:

(1) to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm;

(2) to prevent the client from committing a crime or fraud that is reasonably certain to result in substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another and in furtherance of which the client has used or is using the lawyer&#039;s services;

(3) to prevent, mitigate or rectify substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another that is reasonably certin to result or has resulted from the client&#039;s commission of a crime or fraud in furtherance of which the client has used the lawyer&#039;s services;

(4) to secure legal advice about the lawyer&#039;s compliance with these Rules;

(5) to establish a claim or defense on behalf of the lawyer in a controversy between the lawyer and the client, to establish a defense to a criminal charge or civil claim against the lawyer based upon conduct in which the client was involved, or to respond to allegations in any proceeding concerning the lawyer&#039;s representation of the client; or

(6) to comply with other law or a court order.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/ethics/aba/current/ABA_CODE.HTM#Rule_1.6" rel="nofollow">Model Rules of Professional Conduct, American Bar Association:</a></p>

	<p>Rule 1.6: Confidentiality of Information</p>

	<p>(a) A lawyer shall not reveal information relating to the representation of a client unless the client gives informed consent, the disclosure is impliedly authorized in order to carry out the representation or the disclosure is permitted by paragraph (b).</p>

	<p>(b) A lawyer may reveal information relating to the representation of a client to the extent the lawyer reasonably believes necessary:</p>

	<p>(1) to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm;</p>

	<p>(2) to prevent the client from committing a crime or fraud that is reasonably certain to result in substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another and in furtherance of which the client has used or is using the lawyer&#8217;s services;</p>

	<p>(3) to prevent, mitigate or rectify substantial injury to the financial interests or property of another that is reasonably certin to result or has resulted from the client&#8217;s commission of a crime or fraud in furtherance of which the client has used the lawyer&#8217;s services;</p>

	<p>(4) to secure legal advice about the lawyer&#8217;s compliance with these Rules;</p>

	<p>(5) to establish a claim or defense on behalf of the lawyer in a controversy between the lawyer and the client, to establish a defense to a criminal charge or civil claim against the lawyer based upon conduct in which the client was involved, or to respond to allegations in any proceeding concerning the lawyer&#8217;s representation of the client; or</p>

	<p>(6) to comply with other law or a court order.</p>
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		<title>By: thelawgal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142065</link>
		<dc:creator>thelawgal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142065</guid>
		<description>barry, 

I don&#039;t understand.  The program was highly classified; indeed, only a handful of people in the entire government knew about it. Leaking classified information is a crime: think Patrick Fitzgerald investigating the leaks about Valerie Plame, and, for that matter, the presently open investigation into who leaked the NSA surveillance program.  What more &quot;proof&quot; do you need?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>barry,</p>

	<p>I don&#8217;t understand.  The program was highly classified; indeed, only a handful of people in the entire government knew about it. Leaking classified information is a crime: think Patrick Fitzgerald investigating the leaks about Valerie Plame, and, for that matter, the presently open investigation into who leaked the <span class="caps">NSA</span> surveillance program.  What more &#8220;proof&#8221; do you need?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142058</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 14:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142058</guid>
		<description>thelawgal, you have not yet proven that leaking such information about illegal methods is itself illegal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>thelawgal, you have not yet proven that leaking such information about illegal methods is itself illegal.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: someone7</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142053</link>
		<dc:creator>someone7</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 13:06:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142053</guid>
		<description>I don’t believe getting Goldsmith off the hook – or not quite, depends on how you look at it – is the most important message behind this piece. I know it’s been debated abundantly elsewhere, but I think this part of Newsweek&#039;s article sheds a lot of light on the OLC’s (and specifically, John Yoo’s) modus operandi in the particular case of government-sanctioned torture (note the timing: in the winter of 2002 the CIA sees the need, and asks for legal permission; in August 2002 the relevant memo is produced):

[…] In the winter of 2002, the CIA began catching top Qaeda terrorists—so-called High Value Targets—like Abu Zubaydah. These hard-case jihadists proved resistant to normal methods of interrogation. In the fevered atmosphere of the time, the Bush administration feared a &quot;second wave&quot; attack from Qaeda sleeper cells still inside the United States. The CIA wanted legal permission to use &quot;coercive methods.&quot;
An August 2002 OLC memo, signed by the then head of the OLC—Jay Bybee—but drafted by Yoo, gave the agency what it needed. The controversial document, which became famous as the &quot;torture memo&quot; when it leaked two years later, defined torture so narrowly that, short of maiming or killing a prisoner, interrogators had a free hand. What&#039;s more, the memo claimed license for the president to order methods that would be torture by anyone&#039;s definition—and to do it wholesale, and not just in specific cases. […]

I know, I know, the OLC works on demand, but a timeline so clear, combined with arguments so specious supporting torture, certainly could make for a good point in a special counsel&#039;s indictment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t believe getting Goldsmith off the hook &#8211; or not quite, depends on how you look at it &#8211; is the most important message behind this piece. I know it&#8217;s been debated abundantly elsewhere, but I think this part of Newsweek&#8217;s article sheds a lot of light on the <span class="caps">OLC</span>&#8217;s (and specifically, John Yoo&#8217;s) modus operandi in the particular case of government-sanctioned torture (note the timing: in the winter of 2002 the <span class="caps">CIA</span> sees the need, and asks for legal permission; in August 2002 the relevant memo is produced):</p>

	<p>[&#8230;] In the winter of 2002, the <span class="caps">CIA</span> began catching top Qaeda terrorists&#8212;so-called High Value Targets&#8212;like Abu Zubaydah. These hard-case jihadists proved resistant to normal methods of interrogation. In the fevered atmosphere of the time, the Bush administration feared a &#8220;second wave&#8221; attack from Qaeda sleeper cells still inside the United States. The <span class="caps">CIA</span> wanted legal permission to use &#8220;coercive methods.&#8221;<br />
An August 2002 <span class="caps">OLC</span> memo, signed by the then head of the <span class="caps">OLC</span>&#8212;Jay Bybee&#8212;but drafted by Yoo, gave the agency what it needed. The controversial document, which became famous as the &#8220;torture memo&#8221; when it leaked two years later, defined torture so narrowly that, short of maiming or killing a prisoner, interrogators had a free hand. What&#8217;s more, the memo claimed license for the president to order methods that would be torture by anyone&#8217;s definition&#8212;and to do it wholesale, and not just in specific cases. [&#8230;]</p>

	<p>I know, I know, the <span class="caps">OLC</span> works on demand, but a timeline so clear, combined with arguments so specious supporting torture, certainly could make for a good point in a special counsel&#8217;s indictment.</p>
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		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142043</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 07:25:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142043</guid>
		<description>The Newsweek article makes Ashcroft sound ... relatively not bad.
What have we come to, that in battles within the DOJ, Ashcroft should wind up being (at least reluctantly) on the side of sanity?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The Newsweek article makes Ashcroft sound &#8230; relatively not bad.<br />
What have we come to, that in battles within the <span class="caps">DOJ</span>, Ashcroft should wind up being (at least reluctantly) on the side of sanity?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: thelawgal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/29/goldsmith-and-torture/comment-page-1/#comment-142031</link>
		<dc:creator>thelawgal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2006 03:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4260#comment-142031</guid>
		<description>Anon, 

Your comment makes no sense.  Goldsmith was not practicing before a Court, so he was not acting as the officer of any Court.  Are you suggesting that a DOJ lawyer with a disagreement about the law has an absolute trump that lets him violate the law whenever he likes?  It sounds like exactly the kind of argument that Bush is making, and that Goldmsith himself was fighting against.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Anon,</p>

	<p>Your comment makes no sense.  Goldsmith was not practicing before a Court, so he was not acting as the officer of any Court.  Are you suggesting that a <span class="caps">DOJ</span> lawyer with a disagreement about the law has an absolute trump that lets him violate the law whenever he likes?  It sounds like exactly the kind of argument that Bush is making, and that Goldmsith himself was fighting against.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
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