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	<title>Comments on: Freedom and necessity</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142825</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2006 19:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142825</guid>
		<description>Simon, I don&#039;t know what the British Telecom is supposed to prove or demonstrate here. There&#039;s one thing I do know: if I am a monopoly and you&#039;re a little business trying to compete with me - you won&#039;t last long. If necessary, I&#039;ll be selling below the cost or giving the product/service away for free until you go bust. It&#039;s very simple and has been done millions of times.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Simon, I don&#8217;t know what the British Telecom is supposed to prove or demonstrate here. There&#8217;s one thing I do know: if I am a monopoly and you&#8217;re a little business trying to compete with me &#8211; you won&#8217;t last long. If necessary, I&#8217;ll be selling below the cost or giving the product/service away for free until you go bust. It&#8217;s very simple and has been done millions of times.</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Farber</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142697</link>
		<dc:creator>Gary Farber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 18:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142697</guid>
		<description>&quot;...I’ve been catching up on my Terry Pratchett in the wee hours....

On the off chance you or anyone is interested, a post with long excerpts from an interview with Terry, and a link to the yet far longer interview, &lt;a href=&quot;http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2006/01/le-guin-not-turnip-pterry-meets-queen.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  (Post also has long excerpts from a yet longer interview with Ursula Le Guin, plus a bit of Joss Whedon, plus several other sf-related links, some folk music history links, and some words by me; it was a potpourri of sf bloggy goodness!)

One of various other Pterry-related posts, with more from him, &lt;a href=&quot;http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2005/07/pterry-strikes-back.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.

No Steve Brust posts, sorry.  But the &lt;a href=&quot;http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2006/01/shame.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post about&lt;/a&gt; Pam Noles and Le Guin and the whitewashing of the &lt;i&gt;Earthsea&lt;/i&gt; movie I just gave in another thread here does also have links to Emma Bull&#039;s LiveJournal post on why she hated the &lt;i&gt;Battlestar Galactica&lt;/i&gt; mini-series, and rebuttals from many people.

Thanks for the plug, Dave Weeden.  The check isn&#039;t in the mail.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;&#8230;I&#8217;ve been catching up on my Terry Pratchett in the wee hours&#8230;.</p>

	<p>On the off chance you or anyone is interested, a post with long excerpts from an interview with Terry, and a link to the yet far longer interview, <a href="http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2006/01/le-guin-not-turnip-pterry-meets-queen.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  (Post also has long excerpts from a yet longer interview with Ursula Le Guin, plus a bit of Joss Whedon, plus several other sf-related links, some folk music history links, and some words by me; it was a potpourri of sf bloggy goodness!)</p>

	<p>One of various other Pterry-related posts, with more from him, <a href="http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2005/07/pterry-strikes-back.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>

	<p>No Steve Brust posts, sorry.  But the <a href="http://amygdalagf.blogspot.com/2006/01/shame.html" rel="nofollow">post about</a> Pam Noles and Le Guin and the whitewashing of the <i>Earthsea</i> movie I just gave in another thread here does also have links to Emma Bull&#8217;s LiveJournal post on why she hated the <i>Battlestar Galactica</i> mini-series, and rebuttals from many people.</p>

	<p>Thanks for the plug, Dave Weeden.  The check isn&#8217;t in the mail.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jester</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142636</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Jester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142636</guid>
		<description>...Republicans&#039;... (sigh.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;Republicans&#8217;&#8230; (sigh.)</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jester</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142635</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Jester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 13:44:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142635</guid>
		<description>BT = British Telecom; a monopoly provider of telecom services in the UK when privatised in the early 1980s, now one of several UK telcos.

DKos is full of people who automatically dismiss anyone who disagrees with them as &quot;spouting Republican talking points&quot; and being the Republican&#039;s &quot;natural born houseboys&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">BT </span>= British Telecom; a monopoly provider of telecom services in the UK when privatised in the early 1980s, now one of several UK telcos.</p>

	<p>DKos is full of people who automatically dismiss anyone who disagrees with them as &#8220;spouting Republican talking points&#8221; and being the Republican&#8217;s &#8220;natural born houseboys&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142608</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142608</guid>
		<description>Hi Simon,
what&#039;s BT and what does dKos have to do with it? I never read it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi Simon,<br />
what&#8217;s BT and what does dKos have to do with it? I never read it.</p>
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		<title>By: Simon Jester</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142428</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon Jester</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2006 13:48:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142428</guid>
		<description>A few observations from a libertarian:

Pterry almost certainly isn&#039;t a libertarian. Although, given that Vetinari tends to use relatively light state intervention, he may have classical liberal tendencies.

10. Cheryl, Pterry left the nuclear power industry before privatisation / deregulation. Nationalised industry has always had its own form of corporate  bullshit.

14/29. Ronald, had you tried asking one?

23. Abb1 - obviously wrong; ever heard of BT? (A good riposte to the central thrust of Going Postal, by the way.)

24. Ginger - sounds like an excellent descripiton of some libertarians!

25. Matt - I like his female characters, too. I think comparatively few of his protagonists fit the &quot;the small army 20-year old males with identity crises&quot; description - none of the ones that make it into series form.

26. Peter - &quot;spout republican talking points&quot; - is dKos down? (Ditto 28. Abb1 - &quot;natural-born houseboys&quot;)

27. Seth - your essay seems to consist of 80% inability to distinguish between &quot;use&quot; and &quot;initiate&quot;, and 20% inability to believe that Libertarians mean what they say.

30. Scott - no market failure in Friday. See response to 23. Abb1 for appraisal of Going Postal.

34. Clew - doesn&#039;t Vetinari go out in the daylight? (Mind you, don&#039;t the trolls get around that problem by copious use of sun oil?)

35. Jim - some libertarians simply think that however bad the market&#039;s response to a given problem is, the government&#039;s response is likely to be worse.

36. Still - most such states have strong warlords - which are a form of government themselves.

38. Cheryl - add &quot;as long as it doesn&#039;t directly hurt other people&quot; and I&#039;d agree.

I bought Thud a couple of days ago, but haven&#039;t read it yet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A few observations from a libertarian:</p>

	<p>Pterry almost certainly isn&#8217;t a libertarian. Although, given that Vetinari tends to use relatively light state intervention, he may have classical liberal tendencies.</p>

	<p>10. Cheryl, Pterry left the nuclear power industry before privatisation / deregulation. Nationalised industry has always had its own form of corporate  bullshit.</p>

	<p>14/29. Ronald, had you tried asking one?</p>

	<p>23. Abb1 &#8211; obviously wrong; ever heard of BT? (A good riposte to the central thrust of Going Postal, by the way.)</p>

	<p>24. Ginger &#8211; sounds like an excellent descripiton of some libertarians!</p>

	<p>25. Matt &#8211; I like his female characters, too. I think comparatively few of his protagonists fit the &#8220;the small army 20-year old males with identity crises&#8221; description &#8211; none of the ones that make it into series form.</p>

	<p>26. Peter &#8211; &#8220;spout republican talking points&#8221; &#8211; is dKos down? (Ditto 28. Abb1 &#8211; &#8220;natural-born houseboys&#8221;)</p>

	<p>27. Seth &#8211; your essay seems to consist of 80% inability to distinguish between &#8220;use&#8221; and &#8220;initiate&#8221;, and 20% inability to believe that Libertarians mean what they say.</p>

	<p>30. Scott &#8211; no market failure in Friday. See response to 23. Abb1 for appraisal of Going Postal.</p>

	<p>34. Clew &#8211; doesn&#8217;t Vetinari go out in the daylight? (Mind you, don&#8217;t the trolls get around that problem by copious use of sun oil?)</p>

	<p>35. Jim &#8211; some libertarians simply think that however bad the market&#8217;s response to a given problem is, the government&#8217;s response is likely to be worse.</p>

	<p>36. Still &#8211; most such states have strong warlords &#8211; which are a form of government themselves.</p>

	<p>38. Cheryl &#8211; add &#8220;as long as it doesn&#8217;t directly hurt other people&#8221; and I&#8217;d agree.</p>

	<p>I bought Thud a couple of days ago, but haven&#8217;t read it yet.</p>
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		<title>By: mythago</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142320</link>
		<dc:creator>mythago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142320</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;He eventually comes to a richly deserved sticky end.&lt;/i&gt;

Way to warn about a spoiler. 

I admit to being a bit amused at all the philosophical forehead-wrinkling over what &lt;i&gt;Going Postal&lt;/i&gt; is &quot;about&quot;. Pratchett&#039;s books--especially the newer ones--go after BS in all kinds of philosopies, not just conservative ones. 

Gilt isn&#039;t Libertarianism personified; he&#039;s a con man and a thief, and he&#039;s a threat to Vetinari. (The idea of Vetinari as a &lt;i&gt;benevolent&lt;/i&gt; dictator is a little, er, odd....one with Ankh-Morpork&#039;s best interests in mind, okay, but benevolent?) His goal isn&#039;t to run the clacks in an efficient manner that just happens to threaten the creaky, barely-existing Post Office. von Lipwick&#039;s dream of learning &quot;three-card monte with banks&quot; from Gilt is pretty clear about any actual political philosophy Gilt may have--which is to say, none.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>He eventually comes to a richly deserved sticky end.</i></p>

	<p>Way to warn about a spoiler.</p>

	<p>I admit to being a bit amused at all the philosophical forehead-wrinkling over what <i>Going Postal</i> is &#8220;about&#8221;. Pratchett&#8217;s books&#8212;especially the newer ones&#8212;go after BS in all kinds of philosopies, not just conservative ones.</p>

	<p>Gilt isn&#8217;t Libertarianism personified; he&#8217;s a con man and a thief, and he&#8217;s a threat to Vetinari. (The idea of Vetinari as a <i>benevolent</i> dictator is a little, er, odd&#8230;.one with Ankh-Morpork&#8217;s best interests in mind, okay, but benevolent?) His goal isn&#8217;t to run the clacks in an efficient manner that just happens to threaten the creaky, barely-existing Post Office. von Lipwick&#8217;s dream of learning &#8220;three-card monte with banks&#8221; from Gilt is pretty clear about any actual political philosophy Gilt may have&#8212;which is to say, none.</p>
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		<title>By: Backword Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142281</link>
		<dc:creator>Backword Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:37:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142281</guid>
		<description>34. Clew, I may have to read &quot;Nightwatch&quot; again then. Vetinari didn&#039;t seem to be a vampire even before he attained power. And he kills people with weapons -- most unvampire like.

On Vetinari and power and Pterry&#039;s attitude to same, &quot;Guards! Guards!&quot; seems to me to be the key text. If I understand the &quot;moral&quot;, Vetinari has run down the night watch to a crew of three -- two corrupt and incompetent with a captain whose natural pessimism has been reduced to alcoholic depression. This state of affairs very nearly does for both Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork. In the later books a sober Vimes expands the Watch to include trolls, dwarves, zombies, werewolves, etc (&quot;Men at Arms&quot;) and starts a secret police service (&quot;Maskerade&quot;). It&#039;s clearly implied that Ankh-Morpork is richer and safer for these innovations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>34. Clew, I may have to read &#8220;Nightwatch&#8221; again then. Vetinari didn&#8217;t seem to be a vampire even before he attained power. And he kills people with weapons&#8212;most unvampire like.</p>

	<p>On Vetinari and power and Pterry&#8217;s attitude to same, &#8220;Guards! Guards!&#8221; seems to me to be the key text. If I understand the &#8220;moral&#8221;, Vetinari has run down the night watch to a crew of three&#8212;two corrupt and incompetent with a captain whose natural pessimism has been reduced to alcoholic depression. This state of affairs very nearly does for both Vetinari and Ankh-Morpork. In the later books a sober Vimes expands the Watch to include trolls, dwarves, zombies, werewolves, etc (&#8220;Men at Arms&#8221;) and starts a secret police service (&#8220;Maskerade&#8221;). It&#8217;s clearly implied that Ankh-Morpork is richer and safer for these innovations.</p>
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		<title>By: Cheryl Morgan</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142268</link>
		<dc:creator>Cheryl Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 10:34:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142268</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;Why that’s supposed to make him a libertarian, I really can’t see. Could someone explain to me what the term is supposed to mean?&lt;/em&gt;

As far as I can make out, the philosophy of American Libertarians can be neatly summed up as, &quot;I have the right to do whatever I want and to Hell with the rest of you.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>Why that&#8217;s supposed to make him a libertarian, I really can&#8217;t see. Could someone explain to me what the term is supposed to mean?</em></p>

	<p>As far as I can make out, the philosophy of American Libertarians can be neatly summed up as, &#8220;I have the right to do whatever I want and to Hell with the rest of you.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Λογοκρισία, Kομματική Γραμμή, Pratchett</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142258</link>
		<dc:creator>Σπιτάκι &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Λογοκρισία, Kομματική Γραμμή, Pratchett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 08:20:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142258</guid>
		<description>[...] Τέλος πάντων. Τόσην ώρα θα σκέφτεστε, τι σχέση έχουν όλα αυτά με το βιβλίο εκεί πάνω; Όχι απίστευτα μεγάλη, είναι η αλήθεια&#8230; απλώς είπα να συνδυάσω δύο ποστ. Ε ok, και αυτό: είναι ο Terry Pratchett libertarian; Το Crooked Timber το ψάχνει. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[...] &#932;έ&#955;&#959;&#962; &#960;ά&#957;&#964;&#969;&#957;. &#932;ό&#963;&#951;&#957; ώ&#961;&#945; &#952;&#945; &#963;&#954;έ&#966;&#964;&#949;&#963;&#964;&#949;, &#964;&#953; &#963;&#967;έ&#963;&#951; έ&#967;&#959;&#965;&#957; ό&#955;&#945; &#945;&#965;&#964;ά &#956;&#949; &#964;&#959; &#946;&#953;&#946;&#955;ί&#959; &#949;&#954;&#949;ί &#960;ά&#957;&#969;; Ό&#967;&#953; &#945;&#960;ί&#963;&#964;&#949;&#965;&#964;&#945; &#956;&#949;&#947;ά&#955;&#951;, &#949;ί&#957;&#945;&#953; &#951; &#945;&#955;ή&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945;&#8230; &#945;&#960;&#955;ώ&#962; &#949;ί&#960;&#945; &#957;&#945; &#963;&#965;&#957;&#948;&#965;ά&#963;&#969; &#948;ύ&#959; &#960;&#959;&#963;&#964;. &#917; ok, &#954;&#945;&#953; &#945;&#965;&#964;ό: &#949;ί&#957;&#945;&#953; &#959; Terry Pratchett libertarian; &#932;&#959; Crooked Timber &#964;&#959; &#968;ά&#967;&#957;&#949;&#953;. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: still working it out</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142253</link>
		<dc:creator>still working it out</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 03:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142253</guid>
		<description>The best counter-argument to Libertarianism is to point to the state of the world&#039;s already existing Libertarian countries. Countries such as Afghanistan and a large part of sub-saharan Africa already have weak to non-existent states. These natural Libertarian experiments are pretty convincing proof that it does not work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The best counter-argument to Libertarianism is to point to the state of the world&#8217;s already existing Libertarian countries. Countries such as Afghanistan and a large part of sub-saharan Africa already have weak to non-existent states. These natural Libertarian experiments are pretty convincing proof that it does not work.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim S</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142252</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 02:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142252</guid>
		<description>The government doesn&#039;t have to be in the pocket of the people with the private armies. It only has to be weakened enough to where they really don&#039;t have the power to enforce anything. In spite of their loud protests to the contrary the classical American libertarian wants a government that is so limited that it would inevitably spiral into helplessness when compared to the power of the hyperwealthy. I call them and the Republicans who share much of that attitude the First Church of Free Market. They haven&#039;t met a single problem that they think Free Market can&#039;t solve.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The government doesn&#8217;t have to be in the pocket of the people with the private armies. It only has to be weakened enough to where they really don&#8217;t have the power to enforce anything. In spite of their loud protests to the contrary the classical American libertarian wants a government that is so limited that it would inevitably spiral into helplessness when compared to the power of the hyperwealthy. I call them and the Republicans who share much of that attitude the First Church of Free Market. They haven&#8217;t met a single problem that they think Free Market can&#8217;t solve.</p>
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		<title>By: clew</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142237</link>
		<dc:creator>clew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142237</guid>
		<description>There are certainly hints that Vetinari is a vampire who has sworn off blood in favor of power.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There are certainly hints that Vetinari is a vampire who has sworn off blood in favor of power.</p>
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		<title>By: engels</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142236</link>
		<dc:creator>engels</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 22:38:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142236</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I have an old essay Libertarianism Makes You Stupid&lt;/i&gt;

The correlation is undeniable but I´m not sure you have the direction of causation right...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I have an old essay Libertarianism Makes You Stupid</i></p>

	<p>The correlation is undeniable but I&#180;m not sure you have the direction of causation right&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/30/freedom-and-necessity/comment-page-1/#comment-142214</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2006 18:42:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4263#comment-142214</guid>
		<description>To be honest, I didn&#039;t see &lt;i&gt;Going Postal&lt;/i&gt; as being so much an argument for or against any mainstream political philosophy as much as it was a a parody of Ayn Rand that also spoofed modern corporate culture.

Pratchett&#039;s approach to government seems to be almost entirely pragmatic.  He&#039;ll poke fun at anything but the message in the end is typically &quot;whatever benefits everyone is best&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To be honest, I didn&#8217;t see <i>Going Postal</i> as being so much an argument for or against any mainstream political philosophy as much as it was a a parody of Ayn Rand that also spoofed modern corporate culture.</p>

	<p>Pratchett&#8217;s approach to government seems to be almost entirely pragmatic.  He&#8217;ll poke fun at anything but the message in the end is typically &#8220;whatever benefits everyone is best&#8221;.</p>
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