Comments on: God in his Heavens http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 21:58:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Crooked Timber » » Two Quotes http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142889 Crooked Timber » » Two Quotes Sun, 05 Feb 2006 21:02:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142889 [...] On a happier note, here’s a very interesting speech on science and religion by Father Gregory Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory. Read the whole thing, as they say, but here’s one salient quote. [...] [...] On a happier note, here’s a very interesting speech on science and religion by Father Gregory Coyne, director of the Vatican Observatory. Read the whole thing, as they say, but here’s one salient quote. [...]

]]> By: Alter Cogitare » Medley 05 in progress http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142839 Alter Cogitare » Medley 05 in progress Sat, 04 Feb 2006 22:22:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142839 [...] The Vatican has an observatory. [...] [...] The Vatican has an observatory. [...]

]]> By: JohnLopresti http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142580 JohnLopresti Fri, 03 Feb 2006 00:31:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142580 KH, Likely update 2: It is believed the ruby rod components were kept by the government and not delivered as part of the VATT equipment, thereby assuring the instrument's use would only be celestial luminance downloads, no sky rays emanated from Mt. Graham skyward; though I think there might be potential there for a light show, perhaps the jinns which you suggest might fit onto the point of a needle where the SC2 could target their neutrinonesses. However, I would anticipate, as interesting as the scatter image might be, no quantum physics equation would fit around the data to explain how spirits comprised of massless particles could deflect the SC2 irradiation beam. In sum, we are speaking of two divergent technologies here. As we know, SC2s need lots of flat land for development; 'til this very day you can hear the wails in Woodside now these several decades since that bucolic equestrian valley was invaded by the SLAC linear accelerator, and the golden hills oaks began to form a kind of danse de la morte along the hills where the new freeway courses thru, gracefully swooping up the Peninsula past Stanford's vast arrays of radiotelescope dishes. Still, I grant the mathematicians their realm, and astrophysicists. We may need their science sooner here on earth than we anticipated at the beginnings of this anthropogenic global warming epoch. I hope they take a lession from bloggers, though with the modernist terseness of prose: they should prescind from the convoluted strings of words fancied by early dualist philosophers such as the cleric mathematician Descartes, whose first sentence in the Discourse du la Methode concatenated a substantial chain of 500 words before arriving at its first punctuation, doubtless a mere caesura in those times, a place where the philosophe would pause to breathe and then Continue. To CL, above: Yes, maybe starry skied KS, though if some permutated form of mottoed Lattin from South East Europe, perhaps what is aspera, instead originally was some form of aspiration or hope. KS has given us the exquisite university in Lawrence; and Sam Brownback, Senator Nelson and Sen Roberts. It was a hackneyed term, even when Comstock and Chisholm conjoined in cattle yards, and the Springfield assured buffalo would cede the southern plains and then the northern plains into IA and IL. While there are no mountains of Mt. Graham's proportions and scale in KS, there are rivers, and there is the subsidized open space, lands yielding Flavr Savr genmod grains, soils washing out the rivers into the Gulf of MX. KH, Likely update 2: It is believed the ruby rod components were kept by the government and not delivered as part of the VATT equipment, thereby assuring the instrument’s use would only be celestial luminance downloads, no sky rays emanated from Mt. Graham skyward; though I think there might be potential there for a light show, perhaps the jinns which you suggest might fit onto the point of a needle where the SC2 could target their neutrinonesses. However, I would anticipate, as interesting as the scatter image might be, no quantum physics equation would fit around the data to explain how spirits comprised of massless particles could deflect the SC2 irradiation beam. In sum, we are speaking of two divergent technologies here. As we know, SC2s need lots of flat land for development; ‘til this very day you can hear the wails in Woodside now these several decades since that bucolic equestrian valley was invaded by the SLAC linear accelerator, and the golden hills oaks began to form a kind of danse de la morte along the hills where the new freeway courses thru, gracefully swooping up the Peninsula past Stanford’s vast arrays of radiotelescope dishes.
Still, I grant the mathematicians their realm, and astrophysicists. We may need their science sooner here on earth than we anticipated at the beginnings of this anthropogenic global warming epoch. I hope they take a lession from bloggers, though with the modernist terseness of prose: they should prescind from the convoluted strings of words fancied by early dualist philosophers such as the cleric mathematician Descartes, whose first sentence in the Discourse du la Methode concatenated a substantial chain of 500 words before arriving at its first punctuation, doubtless a mere caesura in those times, a place where the philosophe would pause to breathe and then Continue.
To CL, above: Yes, maybe starry skied KS, though if some permutated form of mottoed Lattin from South East Europe, perhaps what is aspera, instead originally was some form of aspiration or hope. KS has given us the exquisite university in Lawrence; and Sam Brownback, Senator Nelson and Sen Roberts. It was a hackneyed term, even when Comstock and Chisholm conjoined in cattle yards, and the Springfield assured buffalo would cede the southern plains and then the northern plains into IA and IL. While there are no mountains of Mt. Graham’s proportions and scale in KS, there are rivers, and there is the subsidized open space, lands yielding Flavr Savr genmod grains, soils washing out the rivers into the Gulf of MX.

]]> By: Peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142481 Peter Thu, 02 Feb 2006 15:54:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142481 52: I didn't say that the RC Church and Isaac Newton were morally equivalent. I said that the Church was not the only person or organization supressing knowledge it (or s/he) believed to be true because of the perceived ill-effects on society were this knowledge to become widely-known. 52: I didn’t say that the RC Church and Isaac Newton were morally equivalent. I said that the Church was not the only person or organization supressing knowledge it (or s/he) believed to be true because of the perceived ill-effects on society were this knowledge to become widely-known.

]]> By: Peter Erwin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142322 Peter Erwin Wed, 01 Feb 2006 21:48:31 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142322 48: Strangely enough, most people think there's a difference between a large, powerful organization (e.g., the Catholic Church) suppressing public discussion of an issue or argument -- and persecuting those who do attempt to publicly discuss it -- and individual people choosing not to share their private thoughts with others, for whatever reason. The latter, of course, is something just about all of us do at one time or another. I'm afraid even the putative motivations (17th Century Church, Newton) don't match. The Church's attitude at the time wasn't "X is true, but potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, and anyway we're the only one who should know the truth", which is approximately what you are saying Newton felt about his own religious speculations. Instead, the Church wanted to suppress something it thought was false (and capable of leading people into heresy). At the same time, it was working hard to preach those religious ideas it <i>did</i> believe were true. 48: Strangely enough, most people think there’s a difference between a large, powerful organization (e.g., the Catholic Church) suppressing public discussion of an issue or argument—and persecuting those who do attempt to publicly discuss it—and individual people choosing not to share their private thoughts with others, for whatever reason. The latter, of course, is something just about all of us do at one time or another.

I’m afraid even the putative motivations (17th Century Church, Newton) don’t match. The Church’s attitude at the time wasn’t “X is true, but potentially dangerous in the wrong hands, and anyway we’re the only one who should know the truth”, which is approximately what you are saying Newton felt about his own religious speculations.

Instead, the Church wanted to suppress something it thought was false (and capable of leading people into heresy). At the same time, it was working hard to preach those religious ideas it did believe were true.

]]> By: Peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-2/#comment-142314 Peter Wed, 01 Feb 2006 20:24:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142314 Maynard (#49): <i>"Their attitude to the clear scientific fact that you cannot keep increasing the human population forever seems to be to deny that exponential curves actually grow the way math says they do."</i> But the Vatican does not believe the human population will keep increasing forever. They believe in the Second Coming of Christ, which will mean a sudden halt to human population growth. Thus, the Second Coming is quite consistent with current mathematics. Indeed, as Frank Tipler showed, it is even consistent with modern physics (pre-String Theory, if I recall correctly)! Maynard (#49): “Their attitude to the clear scientific fact that you cannot keep increasing the human population forever seems to be to deny that exponential curves actually grow the way math says they do.”

But the Vatican does not believe the human population will keep increasing forever. They believe in the Second Coming of Christ, which will mean a sudden halt to human population growth. Thus, the Second Coming is quite consistent with current mathematics. Indeed, as Frank Tipler showed, it is even consistent with modern physics (pre-String Theory, if I recall correctly)!

]]> By: Bob B http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142313 Bob B Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:29:18 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142313 " The philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend argued that the Church supressed Galileo’s work not because they believed it was false (in fact, the opposite), but because they thought the social consequences of the theory becoming widely known would be deleterious, both in general and to their own particular social position." That's a thought. Penicillin has probably helped to save the lives of some absolutely terrible people. ” The philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend argued that the Church supressed Galileo’s work not because they believed it was false (in fact, the opposite), but because they thought the social consequences of the theory becoming widely known would be deleterious, both in general and to their own particular social position.”

That’s a thought. Penicillin has probably helped to save the lives of some absolutely terrible people.

]]> By: Maynard Handley http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142309 Maynard Handley Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:43:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142309 "But seriously, the fact that the Church of Rome engages in straightforward astronomy is no more weird than General Motors doling out health insurance. Or even the State of Arizona hiring philosophers" It only counts as astronomy (or science in general) if you are willing to accept the conclusions come what may. This hardly sounds like the vatican to me. Historically, of course, there is that whole Galileo business. Right now before our eyes they are going squishy on Darwin. Their attitude to the clear scientific fact that you cannot keep increasing the human population forever seems to be to deny that exponential curves actually grow the way math says they do. They strike me as basically no different from the Bushites --- happy with science as long as it delivers what they want, and no further --- ie absolutely not the people I want in charge of it. (And excuses about how "they believed what Galileo said, they just didn't want it to be publicly known" simply confirm my case.) “But seriously, the fact that the Church of Rome engages in straightforward astronomy is no more weird than General Motors doling out health insurance. Or even the State of Arizona hiring philosophers”

It only counts as astronomy (or science in general) if you are willing to accept the conclusions come what may.
This hardly sounds like the vatican to me.
Historically, of course, there is that whole Galileo business.
Right now before our eyes they are going squishy on Darwin.
Their attitude to the clear scientific fact that you cannot keep increasing the human population forever seems to be to deny that exponential curves actually grow the way math says they do.

They strike me as basically no different from the Bushites—- happy with science as long as it delivers what they want, and no further—- ie absolutely not the people I want in charge of it.
(And excuses about how “they believed what Galileo said, they just didn’t want it to be publicly known” simply confirm my case.)

]]> By: Peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142308 Peter Wed, 01 Feb 2006 18:23:15 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142308 46: Of course it is appropos: Newton wrote explictly that he thought his religious ideas dangerous if allowed to become known beyond a very small circle. He considered himself one of the select, chosen by God to discover and safeguard His law, whether revealed in Nature or in scripture. Same elitist view of knowledge as the RC Church at the time. Newton refrained from publishing his religious views also because they were heretical, and he would have suffered immensely for them if they'd been published. But, even his scientific theories he only published reluctantly; yet with these he mostly had no problems about heresy. The man was just not someone in favour of widening access to information. 46: Of course it is appropos: Newton wrote explictly that he thought his religious ideas dangerous if allowed to become known beyond a very small circle. He considered himself one of the select, chosen by God to discover and safeguard His law, whether revealed in Nature or in scripture. Same elitist view of knowledge as the RC Church at the time.

Newton refrained from publishing his religious views also because they were heretical, and he would have suffered immensely for them if they’d been published. But, even his scientific theories he only published reluctantly; yet with these he mostly had no problems about heresy. The man was just not someone in favour of widening access to information.

]]> By: Bro. Bartleby http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142303 Bro. Bartleby Wed, 01 Feb 2006 17:42:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142303 45. My previous thought of common knowledge has been revised. Of course we of the desert climes are but a stones throw of VATT, and by the way, are too stargazers ourselves. 45. My previous thought of common knowledge has been revised. Of course we of the desert climes are but a stones throw of VATT, and by the way, are too stargazers ourselves.

]]> By: Peter Erwin http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142301 Peter Erwin Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:49:40 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142301 The VATT is sometimes referred to as the "Pope-scope". The Vatican Observatory also runs a well-regarded <a href="http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VOSS.html" rel="nofollow">summer school</a> for astronomy students. Re Galileo: some historians have argued that the Church was worried about heliocentrism lending support to weird sun-worshipping heresies. Giordano Bruno had recently been burned at the stake for promoting the idea that what Europe really needed was a return to the true religion of ancient Egypt (as interpreted by Bruno). Bruno was very keen on heliocentric astronomy, perhaps because he was aware that the ancient Egyptians venerated the sun. A comparison of the Church suppressing heliocentric astronomy (and Galileo's scientific work) with Newton keeping his <i>own</i> ideas secret is hardly apropos. The VATT is sometimes referred to as the “Pope-scope”.

The Vatican Observatory also runs a well-regarded summer school for astronomy students.

Re Galileo: some historians have argued that the Church was worried about heliocentrism lending support to weird sun-worshipping heresies. Giordano Bruno had recently been burned at the stake for promoting the idea that what Europe really needed was a return to the true religion of ancient Egypt (as interpreted by Bruno). Bruno was very keen on heliocentric astronomy, perhaps because he was aware that the ancient Egyptians venerated the sun.

A comparison of the Church suppressing heliocentric astronomy (and Galileo’s scientific work) with Newton keeping his own ideas secret is hardly apropos.

]]> By: Kieran Healy http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142300 Kieran Healy Wed, 01 Feb 2006 16:07:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142300 <i>what I previously thought common knowledge</i> It's certainly well known that the church has made lots of contributions to science over the centuries. I don't think it's common knowledge that the Vatican presently runs a telescope in Arizona. what I previously thought common knowledge

It’s certainly well known that the church has made lots of contributions to science over the centuries. I don’t think it’s common knowledge that the Vatican presently runs a telescope in Arizona.

]]> By: Bro. Bartleby http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142287 Bro. Bartleby Wed, 01 Feb 2006 14:31:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142287 39. "Rather, it’s surprising and delightful." What I think is surprising, is that some folks are surprised with what I previously thought common knowledge. 43. I think it was Galileo who kept to the belief of circular orbits as opposed to Kempler's elliptical orbits, of which some Jesuit astronomers agreed with through observation. 41. Tsze-kung asked about friendship. The Master said, "Faithfully admonish your friend, and skillfully lead him on. If you find him impracticable, stop. Do not disgrace yourself." 39. “Rather, it’s surprising and delightful.” What I think is surprising, is that some folks are surprised with what I previously thought common knowledge.

43. I think it was Galileo who kept to the belief of circular orbits as opposed to Kempler’s elliptical orbits, of which some Jesuit astronomers agreed with through observation.

41. Tsze-kung asked about friendship. The Master said, “Faithfully admonish your friend, and skillfully lead him on. If you find him impracticable, stop. Do not disgrace yourself.”

]]> By: Peter http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142278 Peter Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:04:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142278 Bob B (post 30): For too long, scientists have managed to spin the supression of Galileo's work by the Catholic Church as one of truth vs. falsity. The philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend argued that the Church supressed Galileo's work not because they believed it was false (in fact, the opposite), but because they thought the social consequences of the theory becoming widely known would be deleterious, both in general and to their own particular social position. Feyerabend argued that they were quite rational to act as they did. In any case, the RC Church was not alone in supressing ideas they considered dangerous for society. Isaac Newton did the same with his theological works, claiming that only a small elite should have access to his knowledge. Bob B (post 30):

For too long, scientists have managed to spin the supression of Galileo’s work by the Catholic Church as one of truth vs. falsity. The philosopher of science Paul Feyerabend argued that the Church supressed Galileo’s work not because they believed it was false (in fact, the opposite), but because they thought the social consequences of the theory becoming widely known would be deleterious, both in general and to their own particular social position. Feyerabend argued that they were quite rational to act as they did.

In any case, the RC Church was not alone in supressing ideas they considered dangerous for society. Isaac Newton did the same with his theological works, claiming that only a small elite should have access to his knowledge.

]]> By: Kieran Healy http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/comment-page-1/#comment-142277 Kieran Healy Wed, 01 Feb 2006 13:01:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/01/31/god-in-his-heavens/#comment-142277 Just by the by, I was well aware that the church had a long history of involvement in astronomy -- and other sciences, too. (Mendel, anyone?) What I didn't know was that it presently operated a large telescope in Arizona, let alone that it had the excellent name of "VATT." Oh, and thanks for the advice, Ted at #34. Just by the by, I was well aware that the church had a long history of involvement in astronomy—and other sciences, too. (Mendel, anyone?) What I didn’t know was that it presently operated a large telescope in Arizona, let alone that it had the excellent name of “VATT.”

Oh, and thanks for the advice, Ted at #34.

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