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	<title>Comments on: Those cartoons: hypocrisy and inconsistency</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: J Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-143206</link>
		<dc:creator>J Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2006 16:25:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-143206</guid>
		<description>Mitchell, that&#039;s already happened here in the USA with fundamentalist christians. People who don&#039;t actually believe in fundamentalism have given up trying to understand them and just urge them to give up their superstitions.

It&#039;s sad that this approach doesn&#039;t win elections.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Mitchell, that&#8217;s already happened here in the <span class="caps">USA</span> with fundamentalist christians. People who don&#8217;t actually believe in fundamentalism have given up trying to understand them and just urge them to give up their superstitions.</p>

	<p>It&#8217;s sad that this approach doesn&#8217;t win elections.</p>
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		<title>By: mitchell porter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142898</link>
		<dc:creator>mitchell porter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2006 00:23:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142898</guid>
		<description>I predict that the majority liberalism of the future will be against imperialism in the West *and* against Islam in the East. People who don&#039;t actually believe in Islam will grow tired of trying to figure out who the moderates are and who the radicals are, and will openly urge the Muslim world to abandon its superstitions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I predict that the majority liberalism of the future will be against imperialism in the West <strong>and</strong> against Islam in the East. People who don&#8217;t actually believe in Islam will grow tired of trying to figure out who the moderates are and who the radicals are, and will openly urge the Muslim world to abandon its superstitions.</p>
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		<title>By: rollo</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142895</link>
		<dc:creator>rollo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 23:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142895</guid>
		<description>Aside from the obvious prejudice of non-believers toward the tenets of the faithful, there&#039;s the specious assumption here that this is happening in some kind of sociological vacuum, where any act can be weighed in the abstract according to universal principles.
Abb1&#039;s drift is more pragmatic, and pragmatism is what the rationalist non-believers pride themselves on having. 
Muslims feel attacked, reviled, opposed at every turn, and not just by other religions or nations, but by corrupt and demonic agencies of evil.
Because the smug rationalist sees this as absurd it has little weight in his assessment.
But fundamentalist Muslims view those cartoons the way  most of you view child pornography -  obscene, destructive, damaging to the innocent, and unrepentantly profane.
It isn&#039;t just free speech, it&#039;s a direct refutation of their beliefs, a denial of their right to believe. Publishing that cartoon says the Islamic belief that images of the Prophet are sacred are meaningless and inconsequential. The polite middle vanishes.
The photographs  from Abu Ghraib may have been delivered to the world as evidence of grotesque crime, but their publication was also a compounding of the degradation they showed. 
This cartoon exists in a line of degradations that looks to the Muslim world like a continuous act of war. Because it is.
Couching the debate in the abstract is a collegiate exercise, and playing it off against racism as though religious bigotry were less harmful is timid and weak.
Muslims believe images are powerful, and images of Mohammed are even more powerful - close to the core of their faith. That has to be recognized, and  either honored or discounted. 
Reducing this issue to the legalities of satire isn&#039;t the unbiased egalitarianism it purports to be. 
There isn&#039;t any neutral ground left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Aside from the obvious prejudice of non-believers toward the tenets of the faithful, there&#8217;s the specious assumption here that this is happening in some kind of sociological vacuum, where any act can be weighed in the abstract according to universal principles.<br />
Abb1&#8217;s drift is more pragmatic, and pragmatism is what the rationalist non-believers pride themselves on having.<br />
Muslims feel attacked, reviled, opposed at every turn, and not just by other religions or nations, but by corrupt and demonic agencies of evil.<br />
Because the smug rationalist sees this as absurd it has little weight in his assessment.<br />
But fundamentalist Muslims view those cartoons the way  most of you view child pornography &#8211;  obscene, destructive, damaging to the innocent, and unrepentantly profane.<br />
It isn&#8217;t just free speech, it&#8217;s a direct refutation of their beliefs, a denial of their right to believe. Publishing that cartoon says the Islamic belief that images of the Prophet are sacred are meaningless and inconsequential. The polite middle vanishes.<br />
The photographs  from Abu Ghraib may have been delivered to the world as evidence of grotesque crime, but their publication was also a compounding of the degradation they showed.<br />
This cartoon exists in a line of degradations that looks to the Muslim world like a continuous act of war. Because it is.<br />
Couching the debate in the abstract is a collegiate exercise, and playing it off against racism as though religious bigotry were less harmful is timid and weak.<br />
Muslims believe images are powerful, and images of Mohammed are even more powerful &#8211; close to the core of their faith. That has to be recognized, and  either honored or discounted.<br />
Reducing this issue to the legalities of satire isn&#8217;t the unbiased egalitarianism it purports to be.<br />
There isn&#8217;t any neutral ground left.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Baugh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142887</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Baugh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 20:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142887</guid>
		<description>Doctor Slack touch on something above, as does Lenin in Abb1&#039;s link: this is not a dispute occurring against a basically neutral, civil background.

The US is at war with whoever it wants to be at war with at the moment, and if it&#039;s not trying to manufacture an Iranian front, then the unintended similarities of maneuvers before the opening of an Iraqi front are truly remarkable. The leader of the folks whose actions justify all this sits comfortably; so do the two nations who produce his patronage and followers. Everyone else who can be conveniently tagged as Other, islamofascist, and the like is pretty well screwed. Furthermore, this is a war being fought with active commitment to breaking legal and moral norms. Everything&#039;s on the board - no treaty, no ethical guideline can ever stand in the way of what someone in the chain of command think useful or just plain fun at the moment.

Along with this, we know that the US administration treats the press as purely a tool of propaganda: planting stories and columnists, getting a gay pimp to ask easy questions at press conferences, all kinds of backroom wheeling and dealing. 

Now here comes an effort specifically to provoke hostile reactions. Are we really that sure that there&#039;s no US money or leverage here? There&#039;s apparently some deliberate rabble-rousing based on lies and misdirection in the Muslim world, too? Are we so sure that the ghost of COINTELPRO is that calmly laid to rest?

I&#039;m not sure I&#039;m paranoid enough to answer either of those questions with a fully committed denial...but I think that there&#039;s more than enough reason to ask them, and not to accept as given any clearing unless there&#039;s a whole lot of evidence behind it.

Here&#039;s a question - a genuine one, since I don&#039;t know the answer and didn&#039;t have much luck trying to research it - for those more up on the law than I am. What laws and other obligations govern the treatment of propaganda mills in wartime? There must be some spectrum from &quot;openly manufactured at the home office&quot; to &quot;created independently in hopes of supporting the struggle without any direct patronage at all&quot;, but I don&#039;t know what the categories are or how they work. I do know that the US obviously regards sympathetic independent media in the Middle East as fair game, and it seems like it would be no great stretch or surprise for a lot of Muslims to regard such an effort as equally obviously part of the war effort aimed at them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Doctor Slack touch on something above, as does Lenin in Abb1&#8217;s link: this is not a dispute occurring against a basically neutral, civil background.</p>

	<p>The US is at war with whoever it wants to be at war with at the moment, and if it&#8217;s not trying to manufacture an Iranian front, then the unintended similarities of maneuvers before the opening of an Iraqi front are truly remarkable. The leader of the folks whose actions justify all this sits comfortably; so do the two nations who produce his patronage and followers. Everyone else who can be conveniently tagged as Other, islamofascist, and the like is pretty well screwed. Furthermore, this is a war being fought with active commitment to breaking legal and moral norms. Everything&#8217;s on the board &#8211; no treaty, no ethical guideline can ever stand in the way of what someone in the chain of command think useful or just plain fun at the moment.</p>

	<p>Along with this, we know that the US administration treats the press as purely a tool of propaganda: planting stories and columnists, getting a gay pimp to ask easy questions at press conferences, all kinds of backroom wheeling and dealing.</p>

	<p>Now here comes an effort specifically to provoke hostile reactions. Are we really that sure that there&#8217;s no US money or leverage here? There&#8217;s apparently some deliberate rabble-rousing based on lies and misdirection in the Muslim world, too? Are we so sure that the ghost of <span class="caps">COINTELPRO</span> is that calmly laid to rest?</p>

	<p>I&#8217;m not sure I&#8217;m paranoid enough to answer either of those questions with a fully committed denial&#8230;but I think that there&#8217;s more than enough reason to ask them, and not to accept as given any clearing unless there&#8217;s a whole lot of evidence behind it.</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s a question &#8211; a genuine one, since I don&#8217;t know the answer and didn&#8217;t have much luck trying to research it &#8211; for those more up on the law than I am. What laws and other obligations govern the treatment of propaganda mills in wartime? There must be some spectrum from &#8220;openly manufactured at the home office&#8221; to &#8220;created independently in hopes of supporting the struggle without any direct patronage at all&#8221;, but I don&#8217;t know what the categories are or how they work. I do know that the US obviously regards sympathetic independent media in the Middle East as fair game, and it seems like it would be no great stretch or surprise for a lot of Muslims to regard such an effort as equally obviously part of the war effort aimed at them.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142885</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:24:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142885</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006/02/metastasis-enjoyment.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Lenin here&lt;/a&gt; is absolutely right, btw. This is just anothe one of these: we&#039;ll be bombing and occupying your countries, killing you and your children, insulting you and your religion - and we&#039;ll tell you what your reaction should be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006/02/metastasis-enjoyment.html" rel="nofollow">Lenin here</a> is absolutely right, btw. This is just anothe one of these: we&#8217;ll be bombing and occupying your countries, killing you and your children, insulting you and your religion &#8211; and we&#8217;ll tell you what your reaction should be.</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142863</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 10:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142863</guid>
		<description>Hmm, I was wondering when this was all going to peter out ... (alas, peter out?! a reference to Peter the apostle???) Nevertheless, not one of you has mentioned the burning of Christian churches in America, the latest were still sending embers into the air as you all were busy parsing cartoons. I propose that academia take a stand, send civil rights marchers to Alabama to safeguard the civil rights of Christians there. Too radical? Or is burning churches in America just stories that will soon peter out?
Bro. Bartleby</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hmm, I was wondering when this was all going to peter out &#8230; (alas, peter out?! a reference to Peter the apostle???) Nevertheless, not one of you has mentioned the burning of Christian churches in America, the latest were still sending embers into the air as you all were busy parsing cartoons. I propose that academia take a stand, send civil rights marchers to Alabama to safeguard the civil rights of Christians there. Too radical? Or is burning churches in America just stories that will soon peter out?<br />
Bro. Bartleby</p>
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		<title>By: Infidel With An Explanation</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142856</link>
		<dc:creator>Infidel With An Explanation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 05:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142856</guid>
		<description>Certainly vincent singleton is a right wing extremist.  The Islamists can kill those with whom they disagree, but they can&#039;t be criticized for doing so.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Certainly vincent singleton is a right wing extremist.  The Islamists can kill those with whom they disagree, but they can&#8217;t be criticized for doing so.</p>
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		<title>By: Vincent Singleton</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142800</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Singleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Feb 2006 16:33:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142800</guid>
		<description>Yes, Muslims have a right to be mad but I draw the line at physical harm. Boycott, march it&#039;s ok, but advocating killing is wrong!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Yes, Muslims have a right to be mad but I draw the line at physical harm. Boycott, march it&#8217;s ok, but advocating killing is wrong!</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Harrison</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142720</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:20:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142720</guid>
		<description>The old strategic doctrine of mutual assured destruction worked because each side had the power to destroy the other. Something similar accounts for the convention that religions are not to be made fun of, not because all the religions are so strong, but because they are all so weak. They can&#039;t withstand even feeble criticism. Since all religions, at least in their traditional forms, are obviously false, it behooves their adherents not to throw stones.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The old strategic doctrine of mutual assured destruction worked because each side had the power to destroy the other. Something similar accounts for the convention that religions are not to be made fun of, not because all the religions are so strong, but because they are all so weak. They can&#8217;t withstand even feeble criticism. Since all religions, at least in their traditional forms, are obviously false, it behooves their adherents not to throw stones.</p>
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		<title>By: a</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142696</link>
		<dc:creator>a</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 18:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142696</guid>
		<description>#145.  Some Indonesians stormed the builiding where the Danish embassy in Djakarta is located.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#145.  Some Indonesians stormed the builiding where the Danish embassy in Djakarta is located.</p>
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		<title>By: Fergal</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-4/#comment-142693</link>
		<dc:creator>Fergal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 18:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142693</guid>
		<description>Seeing as Norman Geras is unlikely to reply to Chris&#039; post himself (and seeing where the thread has been heading in recent comments), here are words he wrote at a different time, but eminently applicable now:

&lt;i&gt;&quot;One thing seems to be the treatment of those who practise terror as though they were part of some natural environment we have to take as given - not themselves free and responsible agents, but like a vicious dog or a hive of bees. If we do anything that provokes them, that must make us morally responsible, for they can be expected to react as they do. If this isn&#039;t a form of covert racism, then it&#039;s a kind of diminishing culturalism and is equally insulting to the people transformed by it into amoral beings incapable of choice or judgement.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Seeing as Norman Geras is unlikely to reply to Chris&#8217; post himself (and seeing where the thread has been heading in recent comments), here are words he wrote at a different time, but eminently applicable now:</p>

	<p><i>&#8220;One thing seems to be the treatment of those who practise terror as though they were part of some natural environment we have to take as given &#8211; not themselves free and responsible agents, but like a vicious dog or a hive of bees. If we do anything that provokes them, that must make us morally responsible, for they can be expected to react as they do. If this isn&#8217;t a form of covert racism, then it&#8217;s a kind of diminishing culturalism and is equally insulting to the people transformed by it into amoral beings incapable of choice or judgement.&#8221;</i></p>
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		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-3/#comment-142681</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142681</guid>
		<description>http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PROPHET_DRAWINGS?SITE=PAYOK&amp;SECTION=HOME&amp;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- Tens of thousands of angry Muslims marched through Palestinian cities, burning the Danish flag and calling for vengeance Friday against European countries where caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad were published. In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them &quot;offensive to the beliefs of Muslims.&quot;

While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.



This makes it official. It was the right and proper thing to do to print those cartoons.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><a href="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PROPHET_DRAWINGS?SITE=PAYOK&#038;SECTION=HOME&#038;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT" rel="nofollow">http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/P/PROPHET_DRAWINGS?SITE=PAYOK&#038;SECTION=HOME&#038;TEMPLATE=DEFAULT</a></p>

	<p><span class="caps">GAZA CITY</span>, Gaza Strip (AP)&#8212;Tens of thousands of angry Muslims marched through Palestinian cities, burning the Danish flag and calling for vengeance Friday against European countries where caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad were published. In Washington, the State Department criticized the drawings, calling them &#8220;offensive to the beliefs of Muslims.&#8221;</p>

	<p>While recognizing the importance of freedom of the press and expression, State Department press officer Janelle Hironimus said these rights must be coupled with press responsibility.</p>



	<p>This makes it official. It was the right and proper thing to do to print those cartoons.</p>
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		<title>By: mc</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-3/#comment-142675</link>
		<dc:creator>mc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 17:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142675</guid>
		<description>30 says:
&quot;what is the point of a law under which, Daniel says, “there has been precisely one prosecution … in the last 35 years”? Its deterrence value seems rather low...If the defeated parts of the Bill would have led to no prosecutions, would they have counted as vanity-lawmaking? If such legislation really is toothless and mostly a PR stunt and a sop to a minority, isn’t it an incredible misuse of Parliamentary time?&quot;

First - I think &#039;no&#039; should be replaced by &#039;very few&#039;.
Second, do the writer and others who share this view know how many prosecutions there are per year under the incitement-to-racial-hatred laws?

If not, they could try the following exercise: ask yourself (before checking the answer) how low the number would have to be for you to take the same view (vanity, stunt, sop, misuse of parliamentary time etc.) of that legislation.

For those genuinely interested, I see there is a short essay on this subject (the symbolic element of legislation) in the current (Feb) edition of Prospect (not free online).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>30 says:<br />
&#8220;what is the point of a law under which, Daniel says, &#8220;there has been precisely one prosecution &#8230; in the last 35 years&#8221;? Its deterrence value seems rather low&#8230;If the defeated parts of the Bill would have led to no prosecutions, would they have counted as vanity-lawmaking? If such legislation really is toothless and mostly a PR stunt and a sop to a minority, isn&#8217;t it an incredible misuse of Parliamentary time?&#8221;</p>

	<p>First &#8211; I think &#8216;no&#8217; should be replaced by &#8216;very few&#8217;.<br />
Second, do the writer and others who share this view know how many prosecutions there are per year under the incitement-to-racial-hatred laws?</p>

	<p>If not, they could try the following exercise: ask yourself (before checking the answer) how low the number would have to be for you to take the same view (vanity, stunt, sop, misuse of parliamentary time etc.) of that legislation.</p>

	<p>For those genuinely interested, I see there is a short essay on this subject (the symbolic element of legislation) in the current (Feb) edition of Prospect (not free online).</p>
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		<title>By: Donald Johnson</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-3/#comment-142668</link>
		<dc:creator>Donald Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:42:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142668</guid>
		<description>I think stostoto was right about this thread dying from too many analogies.  

Sometimes the heated discussions that occur in threads at this blog are about real issues, and I disagree with the way Chris B cut off a discussion about the I/P conflict a few weeks ago simply because it was, um, being forcefully conducted, but this thread is begging for a pair of scissors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think stostoto was right about this thread dying from too many analogies.</p>

	<p>Sometimes the heated discussions that occur in threads at this blog are about real issues, and I disagree with the way Chris B cut off a discussion about the I/P conflict a few weeks ago simply because it was, um, being forcefully conducted, but this thread is begging for a pair of scissors.</p>
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		<title>By: Antti Nannimus</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/02/those-cartoons/comment-page-3/#comment-142666</link>
		<dc:creator>Antti Nannimus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:31:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4271#comment-142666</guid>
		<description>Hi,

All the peoples of the Abrahamic religions should simply get on with exterminating each other as quickly and completely as possible so the rest of us can then live in peace and quiet. These constant arguments about who has most offended whom are giving me a headache.

Have a nice day,
Antti</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hi,</p>

	<p>All the peoples of the Abrahamic religions should simply get on with exterminating each other as quickly and completely as possible so the rest of us can then live in peace and quiet. These constant arguments about who has most offended whom are giving me a headache.</p>

	<p>Have a nice day,<br />
Antti</p>
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