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	<title>Comments on: Nussbaum on the Animals</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-144024</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2006 06:50:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-144024</guid>
		<description>bro bartleby--explanation that says universe has started with &#039;big-bang&#039; is not &#039;mumbo jumbo&#039; and is preferable to invoking supernatural causes. The reason is simple, good explanations  should be : 

1)true and known to be true ( or at least very highly confirmed) 
2) shed light on the phenomena that are being explained

This is precisely what big bang meets but explanation in terms of supernatural person does not. You cannot know whether the universe was created so you cannot know whether such explanation is true ; simply no way to test such a claim . 
Secondly when you say &#039;god did it &#039;  you are trying to use explanation that is more obscure , more in need of explanation than the thing you want explained ( you are not explaining why your camera is not working when you say gremlin did it ) but this is precisely how supernatural explanations work. 
This point is made by D.Hume in his &#039;dialogues concerning natural religion&#039;.As far as I can tell there is no answer to this criticism Hume makes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bro bartleby&#8212;explanation that says universe has started with &#8216;big-bang&#8217; is not &#8216;mumbo jumbo&#8217; and is preferable to invoking supernatural causes. The reason is simple, good explanations  should be :</p>

	<p>1)true and known to be true ( or at least very highly confirmed)<br />
2) shed light on the phenomena that are being explained</p>

	<p>This is precisely what big bang meets but explanation in terms of supernatural person does not. You cannot know whether the universe was created so you cannot know whether such explanation is true ; simply no way to test such a claim .<br />
Secondly when you say &#8216;god did it &#8217;  you are trying to use explanation that is more obscure , more in need of explanation than the thing you want explained ( you are not explaining why your camera is not working when you say gremlin did it ) but this is precisely how supernatural explanations work.<br />
This point is made by D.Hume in his &#8216;dialogues concerning natural religion&#8217;.As far as I can tell there is no answer to this criticism Hume makes.</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143900</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:53:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143900</guid>
		<description>Bro. zdendek, you are reading more into what I say, than what I say, on the contrary, I think not &quot;idea that our lives must be empty&quot; for my argument is that you will over compensate, and have a life overfilled with material and or mental activity. And the puppet-master and all the rest of the frightening and spooky stuff comes from you, for I am only seeking a discussion on first cause (other than a mumbo-jumbo uncaused big bang). I&#039;m willing to leave myth, mumbo-jumbo, and folklore out of the discussion, yet it seems to me that these too are humans attempting to stuff the void.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bro. zdendek, you are reading more into what I say, than what I say, on the contrary, I think not &#8220;idea that our lives must be empty&#8221; for my argument is that you will over compensate, and have a life overfilled with material and or mental activity. And the puppet-master and all the rest of the frightening and spooky stuff comes from you, for I am only seeking a discussion on first cause (other than a mumbo-jumbo uncaused big bang). I&#8217;m willing to leave myth, mumbo-jumbo, and folklore out of the discussion, yet it seems to me that these too are humans attempting to stuff the void.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143882</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 11:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143882</guid>
		<description>bro bartleby-- two comments : first the idea that our lives must be empty etc. if there is no big brother calling the shots is countered nicely by Richard Dawkins ( I think &#039;unweaving the rainbow &#039;). But second isnt the idea that there is this supernatural puppet-master who knows what you think etc *spooky*? Is the picture you describe really that cool ? I mean universe with such a super intelligence that has that much power ( the deal we get in Judeo Christian deal: supernatural person )that is a person is frightening and spooky . Maybe the right sentiment then should be that we hope that there is no god.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bro bartleby&#8212;two comments : first the idea that our lives must be empty etc. if there is no big brother calling the shots is countered nicely by Richard Dawkins ( I think &#8216;unweaving the rainbow &#8216;). But second isnt the idea that there is this supernatural puppet-master who knows what you think etc <strong>spooky</strong>? Is the picture you describe really that cool ? I mean universe with such a super intelligence that has that much power ( the deal we get in Judeo Christian deal: supernatural person )that is a person is frightening and spooky . Maybe the right sentiment then should be that we hope that there is no god.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143879</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Feb 2006 10:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143879</guid>
		<description>bad jim-- the proposal that core of morality is known a priori does not say that all laws must be known in this manner . The idea is that only the foundation moral principles have this character. So &#039; act only on principles that can become universal law &#039; is then a priori. 
Or see Rawls whose principles that would be chosen behind the &#039;veil of ignorance&#039; have a priori character essentially but this does not apply to all legislation .  
So even if laws we have have essentially organic character  ( as you want to argue ) and took many years to evolve there is no reason why few basic moral principles are not involved that can be known a priori. Think of spiders constructing their webs which may be describable by few mathematical formulas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bad jim&#8212;the proposal that core of morality is known a priori does not say that all laws must be known in this manner . The idea is that only the foundation moral principles have this character. So &#8217; act only on principles that can become universal law &#8217; is then a priori.<br />
Or see Rawls whose principles that would be chosen behind the &#8216;veil of ignorance&#8217; have a priori character essentially but this does not apply to all legislation .<br />
So even if laws we have have essentially organic character  ( as you want to argue ) and took many years to evolve there is no reason why few basic moral principles are not involved that can be known a priori. Think of spiders constructing their webs which may be describable by few mathematical formulas.</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143812</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 15:34:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143812</guid>
		<description>My argument is that you folks are analyzing and operating on the freckles on the skin, and ignoring what underlays this thin veil. You are wrapped up in the &quot;our lives are bounded, fastened and festooned by laws and customs ...&quot; the surface, but either ignore, or are unwilling to take scalpel to freckled skin. 

Perhaps we need to look to the &#039;mad&#039; for advice? Certain &#039;disorders&#039; cause the individual to peer beneath the veil of &#039;humanity&#039; and confront the eternal void. We have amble labels for these poor folks. Prisons are full of individuals who think they understand that life is a &#039;joke&#039; or as some  say, &#039;cosmic joke&#039; ... so I&#039;m saying that if one really believes in no Higher Power, then for the most part evolution has &#039;kept that secret&#039; from all beings, until ... until the human mind crossed over into self awareness. Then the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, we need this powerful brain to survive, because our puny bodies can&#039;t stand against other more powerful animals, yet that powerful brain has a down side, it can now see the void of nothingness, and this too becomes a feared predator. All the &quot;festooned laws and customs&quot; keep that new predator at bay, and all of science and philosophy are but 2x4s nailed to the door in order that that door to the void is never really opened. A few poor souls manager by chance or circumstance to open that door, and all the rest of us pity these poor souls as they decend into &#039;madness&#039; ... 

The heart of the question, if no &quot;God&quot; then we are simply another accumulation of atoms that came together by chance and evolution and have a very brief existence before dissolving and disassembling into the original atoms that constucted us, and that is it. Birth, life, death. Period. No rhyme or reason. And yes, we can sit about and study all this, and even philosophize about it, but again, we are just hammering more 2x4s to that door from which behind is the ultimate reality -- nothing. And after all, isn&#039;t it Truth that we say we are seeking?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>My argument is that you folks are analyzing and operating on the freckles on the skin, and ignoring what underlays this thin veil. You are wrapped up in the &#8220;our lives are bounded, fastened and festooned by laws and customs &#8230;&#8221; the surface, but either ignore, or are unwilling to take scalpel to freckled skin.</p>

	<p>Perhaps we need to look to the &#8216;mad&#8217; for advice? Certain &#8216;disorders&#8217; cause the individual to peer beneath the veil of &#8216;humanity&#8217; and confront the eternal void. We have amble labels for these poor folks. Prisons are full of individuals who think they understand that life is a &#8216;joke&#8217; or as some  say, &#8216;cosmic joke&#8217; &#8230; so I&#8217;m saying that if one really believes in no Higher Power, then for the most part evolution has &#8216;kept that secret&#8217; from all beings, until &#8230; until the human mind crossed over into self awareness. Then the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, we need this powerful brain to survive, because our puny bodies can&#8217;t stand against other more powerful animals, yet that powerful brain has a down side, it can now see the void of nothingness, and this too becomes a feared predator. All the &#8220;festooned laws and customs&#8221; keep that new predator at bay, and all of science and philosophy are but 2&#215;4s nailed to the door in order that that door to the void is never really opened. A few poor souls manager by chance or circumstance to open that door, and all the rest of us pity these poor souls as they decend into &#8216;madness&#8217; &#8230;</p>

	<p>The heart of the question, if no &#8220;God&#8221; then we are simply another accumulation of atoms that came together by chance and evolution and have a very brief existence before dissolving and disassembling into the original atoms that constucted us, and that is it. Birth, life, death. Period. No rhyme or reason. And yes, we can sit about and study all this, and even philosophize about it, but again, we are just hammering more 2&#215;4s to that door from which behind is the ultimate reality&#8212;nothing. And after all, isn&#8217;t it Truth that we say we are seeking?</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143807</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 11:43:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143807</guid>
		<description>The notion that morals can be derived &lt;em&gt;a priori&lt;/em&gt; is as difficult to digest as the thought they could be god-given. 

The laws we have are the product of thousands of years of contentious negotiation. They were not conferred upon us by the last millennium&#039;s favorite text, nor were they derived from a collection of axioms.

Our lives are bounded, fastened and festooned by laws and customs we and our predecessors brought into existence, which we are at liberty to modify at will. At least in theory, this is an experimental discipline.

And, of course, at every moment, each of us is both the designer of the experiment and one of the subjects. We ought to insist that our various polities extend their planning horizons at least into the immediate future. Now that we&#039;ve scraped the last fish from our oceans, where will our next dish come from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The notion that morals can be derived <em>a priori</em> is as difficult to digest as the thought they could be god-given.</p>

	<p>The laws we have are the product of thousands of years of contentious negotiation. They were not conferred upon us by the last millennium&#8217;s favorite text, nor were they derived from a collection of axioms.</p>

	<p>Our lives are bounded, fastened and festooned by laws and customs we and our predecessors brought into existence, which we are at liberty to modify at will. At least in theory, this is an experimental discipline.</p>

	<p>And, of course, at every moment, each of us is both the designer of the experiment and one of the subjects. We ought to insist that our various polities extend their planning horizons at least into the immediate future. Now that we&#8217;ve scraped the last fish from our oceans, where will our next dish come from?</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143804</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 10:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143804</guid>
		<description>Bro-- I must confess that I have been avoiding a deeper question that you raise and I will try to answer it; it is a problem for all secular ethics and arguably for non secular once too. The question is simply *why should I be moral ?* Can secular ethics answer this question ? The answer from sort of Kantian perspective ( actually Thomas Nagel to be exact ) looks like this : 
&#039; how would you like it if someone did that to you ?&#039; 

suppose you are about to steal someone&#039;s information from their computer and someone said to you &#039; how would you like it if someone did that to you ? This is somehow supposed to stop you but why ?
The answer is because if you hated it when someone did it to you you admit that she has a  reason  not do it to you. If you admit that, you have to ask what that reason is. It cannot be that it is *you* that she is hurting of all people in the world but rather a more general reason anyone in her position including you , if you were in that position has also.
But if anyone in the position where they can steel info from someone elses computer has for not stealing it then that applies to you too. In other words you have a reason not to steal the stuff. As Nagel points out this is a matter of simple consistency .
This is Kantian because it involves the idea that acting morally involves acting from a nonpersonal perspective ; moral point of view is  universal point of view , kind of like when you do math : you reason as a member of a community of reasoners who can see that 2+2=4 .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bro&#8212;I must confess that I have been avoiding a deeper question that you raise and I will try to answer it; it is a problem for all secular ethics and arguably for non secular once too. The question is simply *why should I be moral ?* Can secular ethics answer this question ? The answer from sort of Kantian perspective ( actually Thomas Nagel to be exact ) looks like this :<br />
&#8217; how would you like it if someone did that to you ?&#8217;</p>

	<p>suppose you are about to steal someone&#8217;s information from their computer and someone said to you &#8217; how would you like it if someone did that to you ? This is somehow supposed to stop you but why ?<br />
The answer is because if you hated it when someone did it to you you admit that she has a  reason  not do it to you. If you admit that, you have to ask what that reason is. It cannot be that it is <strong>you</strong> that she is hurting of all people in the world but rather a more general reason anyone in her position including you , if you were in that position has also.<br />
But if anyone in the position where they can steel info from someone elses computer has for not stealing it then that applies to you too. In other words you have a reason not to steal the stuff. As Nagel points out this is a matter of simple consistency .<br />
This is Kantian because it involves the idea that acting morally involves acting from a nonpersonal perspective ; moral point of view is  universal point of view , kind of like when you do math : you reason as a member of a community of reasoners who can see that 2+2=4 .</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143802</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143802</guid>
		<description>Bro -- regarding &#039;no ultimate game plan&#039;.  The way people look on the role of evolution in the apearance of morality ( se Eliot Sober , Brian Skyrms or D. Dennett ) is that morality is needed to coordinate our social activities and interactions so that conflict is minimised ( and so morality is just an adaptation just like an eye is ). And by using game theory it can be shown that people who act altruistically will have an advantage over selfish freeriders and so morality can be shown to have evolved by natural selection. 
To say that we are just selfish and hence morality could not evolve is not the accepted view. What most peolple seem to think is that a type of pluralist picture of our motivation is true ( Eliot Sober ): we can act selfisly , we can act altruistically and we can act in between . Also observe that there is lots of cooperation in nature as Darwin already observed so the idea that evolution involves only selfish behaviour is not true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bro&#8212;regarding &#8216;no ultimate game plan&#8217;.  The way people look on the role of evolution in the apearance of morality ( se Eliot Sober , Brian Skyrms or D. Dennett ) is that morality is needed to coordinate our social activities and interactions so that conflict is minimised ( and so morality is just an adaptation just like an eye is ). And by using game theory it can be shown that people who act altruistically will have an advantage over selfish freeriders and so morality can be shown to have evolved by natural selection.<br />
To say that we are just selfish and hence morality could not evolve is not the accepted view. What most peolple seem to think is that a type of pluralist picture of our motivation is true ( Eliot Sober ): we can act selfisly , we can act altruistically and we can act in between . Also observe that there is lots of cooperation in nature as Darwin already observed so the idea that evolution involves only selfish behaviour is not true.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143801</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Feb 2006 09:15:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143801</guid>
		<description>Bro Bartleby-- regarding your take on Aristotle the answer is that what happiness consists in and what promotes it is real in a sense that it is like the question of what promotes health. It is certainly not a fiction that contaminated water will make you ill or that overeating may give you host of health problems. The Greeks see ethics in a similar way. So having a virtuous character ( psychological fact ) enhances your happiness in a way in which healthy diet enhances your health . Job of the philosopher is to just observe what type of activities and behaviour lead to &#039;Eudaimonic life&#039; . Just as medical doctor does not posit any fictions when he advises on health matters so similarly with a philosopher who gives you advice on what you ought to do : he is not dealing with any fictions but only with facts about human nature. Again god plays no role at all in this picture 

(btw recognition of how powerful an approach this is is the recognition of the roman catholic Saint Thomas Aquinas that this approach can be absorbed by RC church ; in fact Aquinas adopts and incorporates almost without modification . Aristotle&#039;s ethics into Christian approach )</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Bro Bartleby&#8212;regarding your take on Aristotle the answer is that what happiness consists in and what promotes it is real in a sense that it is like the question of what promotes health. It is certainly not a fiction that contaminated water will make you ill or that overeating may give you host of health problems. The Greeks see ethics in a similar way. So having a virtuous character ( psychological fact ) enhances your happiness in a way in which healthy diet enhances your health . Job of the philosopher is to just observe what type of activities and behaviour lead to &#8216;Eudaimonic life&#8217; . Just as medical doctor does not posit any fictions when he advises on health matters so similarly with a philosopher who gives you advice on what you ought to do : he is not dealing with any fictions but only with facts about human nature. Again god plays no role at all in this picture</p>

	<p>(btw recognition of how powerful an approach this is is the recognition of the roman catholic Saint Thomas Aquinas that this approach can be absorbed by RC church ; in fact Aquinas adopts and incorporates almost without modification . Aristotle&#8217;s ethics into Christian approach )</p>
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		<title>By: Bro. Bartleby</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143758</link>
		<dc:creator>Bro. Bartleby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 15:54:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143758</guid>
		<description>#24:&quot;the idea that ‘anything goes if you dont believe in god’ is a common misunderstanding ...&quot;

#25: &quot;Danish position is amoral because there can be no right/wrong without belief in god&quot;

Let me attempt to clarify what I am saying, it isn&#039;t a question of &quot;there can be no right/wrong without belief ...&quot; it is &quot;there is no need, other than selfishness (and group survival), for right/wrong ...&quot; 

I posit that the &quot;god&quot; of the secular world is: you and I and everyone else. When one doesn&#039;t believe in a higher power/God/Creator, then one either believes in self and other &#039;selves&#039; as arbitrators of how we will survive, either as individuals, or as groups. 

What Aristotle is doing is creating an intellectual fiction in order to create the most comfort for the most folks. Are these &#039;fictions&#039; real? As in the essences of Plato? Or are they evolutionary constructs that these clever animals (humans) came up with in order to live in packs.

I am saying, if no Higher Intelligency, no eternal &#039;essences&#039; floating about awaiting for us to grab, then no ultimate &#039;game plan&#039; ... it is all us animals attempting to survive, simply because evolution hardwired us to attempt to survive, and evolution has shown that seeking comfort (being free from pain, extremes in clime, predators) raises the chance for survival. So the evolving human brain was perfect up until we moved from small hunting and gathering units, once we became creatures of the pack, then this now highly evolved brain was able to come up with stragegies for moving from small packs to large herds. Other herd animals didn&#039;t have this &#039;problem&#039; because their brains had not evolved to the point where they had self awareness, and all the problems that that creates.
...
gotta go, work to do in the vineyard today.
Shalom, Bro. Bartleby</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>#24:&#8221;the idea that &#8216;anything goes if you dont believe in god&#8217; is a common misunderstanding &#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>#25: &#8220;Danish position is amoral because there can be no right/wrong without belief in god&#8221;</p>

	<p>Let me attempt to clarify what I am saying, it isn&#8217;t a question of &#8220;there can be no right/wrong without belief &#8230;&#8221; it is &#8220;there is no need, other than selfishness (and group survival), for right/wrong &#8230;&#8221;</p>

	<p>I posit that the &#8220;god&#8221; of the secular world is: you and I and everyone else. When one doesn&#8217;t believe in a higher power/God/Creator, then one either believes in self and other &#8216;selves&#8217; as arbitrators of how we will survive, either as individuals, or as groups.</p>

	<p>What Aristotle is doing is creating an intellectual fiction in order to create the most comfort for the most folks. Are these &#8216;fictions&#8217; real? As in the essences of Plato? Or are they evolutionary constructs that these clever animals (humans) came up with in order to live in packs.</p>

	<p>I am saying, if no Higher Intelligency, no eternal &#8216;essences&#8217; floating about awaiting for us to grab, then no ultimate &#8216;game plan&#8217; &#8230; it is all us animals attempting to survive, simply because evolution hardwired us to attempt to survive, and evolution has shown that seeking comfort (being free from pain, extremes in clime, predators) raises the chance for survival. So the evolving human brain was perfect up until we moved from small hunting and gathering units, once we became creatures of the pack, then this now highly evolved brain was able to come up with stragegies for moving from small packs to large herds. Other herd animals didn&#8217;t have this &#8216;problem&#8217; because their brains had not evolved to the point where they had self awareness, and all the problems that that creates.<br />
&#8230;<br />
gotta go, work to do in the vineyard today.<br />
Shalom, Bro. Bartleby</p>
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		<title>By: eyerouge</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143752</link>
		<dc:creator>eyerouge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143752</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;bad jim:&lt;/b&gt;

First of all, you sound like a speciesist and seem to have an antropocentric point of view.

Second, ethics must not and aren&#039;t in most cases derived from &quot;economical or game-theoretical considerations&quot;. How that is explains itself if you study ethics a year or two.

Third, even if ethics were derived the way you suggest, you could still think of hypothetical cases where you wouldn&#039;t accept the outcome. A  classy example is the one with aliens visiting earth that start treating us as we treat animlas in the meatindustry. The fact that the aliens and we do not &quot;interact with each other in a mutually comprehensible fashion&quot; (say because of the aliens non-interest) doesn&#039;t prove anything or make it more justifiable to treat us as slaves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><b>bad jim:</b></p>

	<p>First of all, you sound like a speciesist and seem to have an antropocentric point of view.</p>

	<p>Second, ethics must not and aren&#8217;t in most cases derived from &#8220;economical or game-theoretical considerations&#8221;. How that is explains itself if you study ethics a year or two.</p>

	<p>Third, even if ethics were derived the way you suggest, you could still think of hypothetical cases where you wouldn&#8217;t accept the outcome. A  classy example is the one with aliens visiting earth that start treating us as we treat animlas in the meatindustry. The fact that the aliens and we do not &#8220;interact with each other in a mutually comprehensible fashion&#8221; (say because of the aliens non-interest) doesn&#8217;t prove anything or make it more justifiable to treat us as slaves.</p>
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		<title>By: pvk16</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143751</link>
		<dc:creator>pvk16</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 14:04:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143751</guid>
		<description>Typing on a plastic polymeric keyboard produced from petrochemicals derived from the deaths of countless animals.  Living in a house built on the annihilation of the habitat of countless insects.  

Somewhere maybe a line has to be drawn on the suffering of animals for our comfort. Just seems that compassion for vertebrates seems a particularly human &quot;apartheid.&quot;  Or maybe antennae don&#039;t feel.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Typing on a plastic polymeric keyboard produced from petrochemicals derived from the deaths of countless animals.  Living in a house built on the annihilation of the habitat of countless insects.</p>

	<p>Somewhere maybe a line has to be drawn on the suffering of animals for our comfort. Just seems that compassion for vertebrates seems a particularly human &#8220;apartheid.&#8221;  Or maybe antennae don&#8217;t feel.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143745</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 11:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143745</guid>
		<description>bad jim-- number of good points but what you say is really an alternative approach to the one Nussbaum offers. Second comment :the game theory and economics come in only as *explanations* of how say cooperation evolved but this does not give you &#039;derivation&#039; of specific norms. That is to say you cannot derive any norms from naturalistic aconts of behaviour ( naturalistic fallacy problem ). Now Nussbaum on the other hand with her Aristotelianism does not have this problem with norms  and hence ( at least for this reason ) her position is better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bad jim&#8212;number of good points but what you say is really an alternative approach to the one Nussbaum offers. Second comment :the game theory and economics come in only as <strong>explanations</strong> of how say cooperation evolved but this does not give you &#8216;derivation&#8217; of specific norms. That is to say you cannot derive any norms from naturalistic aconts of behaviour ( naturalistic fallacy problem ). Now Nussbaum on the other hand with her Aristotelianism does not have this problem with norms  and hence ( at least for this reason ) her position is better.</p>
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		<title>By: bad Jim</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143742</link>
		<dc:creator>bad Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 09:33:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143742</guid>
		<description>If we derive ethics from economical or game-theoretical considerations (and there&#039;s a good argument that we share and reinforce certain rules just because they work) they&#039;re not easily generalized to other species, or even to humans in societies sufficiently distinct from ours.

The basic notion of reciprocity (whether expressed by the Golden Rule, the Categorical Imperative, or Rapoport&#039;s &quot;Tit for tat&quot;) only enjoins cooperation within populations which continually interact with each other in a mutually comprehensible fashion.

In practical terms this suggests nearly nothing about how other animals should be treated. It&#039;s less reciprocity than lifelong familiarity that gives me an easy relationship with most dogs. Pigeons don&#039;t seem to care that I yield to them, and I&#039;ve retaliated by eating one (rôti au cacao). Pigs, cows and fish in general are nearly as unresponsive, and I&#039;m untroubled by eating them and wearing their skins.

We&#039;re more likely to reach consensus on how to treat our fellow creatures by considering our health, and taking a long term perspective on economics and the environment, than by pondering the bounds posed by the various moral obligations which one might choose to assume.

Taking a long enough view requires us to save as many species as we can, if only for the delight of future generations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>If we derive ethics from economical or game-theoretical considerations (and there&#8217;s a good argument that we share and reinforce certain rules just because they work) they&#8217;re not easily generalized to other species, or even to humans in societies sufficiently distinct from ours.</p>

	<p>The basic notion of reciprocity (whether expressed by the Golden Rule, the Categorical Imperative, or Rapoport&#8217;s &#8220;Tit for tat&#8221;) only enjoins cooperation within populations which continually interact with each other in a mutually comprehensible fashion.</p>

	<p>In practical terms this suggests nearly nothing about how other animals should be treated. It&#8217;s less reciprocity than lifelong familiarity that gives me an easy relationship with most dogs. Pigeons don&#8217;t seem to care that I yield to them, and I&#8217;ve retaliated by eating one (r&#244;ti au cacao). Pigs, cows and fish in general are nearly as unresponsive, and I&#8217;m untroubled by eating them and wearing their skins.</p>

	<p>We&#8217;re more likely to reach consensus on how to treat our fellow creatures by considering our health, and taking a long term perspective on economics and the environment, than by pondering the bounds posed by the various moral obligations which one might choose to assume.</p>

	<p>Taking a long enough view requires us to save as many species as we can, if only for the delight of future generations.</p>
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		<title>By: zdenek</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/09/nussbaum-on-the-animals/comment-page-1/#comment-143741</link>
		<dc:creator>zdenek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2006 08:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4296#comment-143741</guid>
		<description>bro. bartleby-- in the Danish cartoon dispute one side viz. the islamist side bases its criticism of the Danish position on religious morality ; the Danes on the other hand are completely secular. The picture then according to bro bartebly looks like this : the Danish position is amoral because there can be no right/wrong without belief in god . The Islamist position on the other hand is ethical because it is grounded in religion . So you must side with the Islamists in this case ? :-/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bro. bartleby&#8212;in the Danish cartoon dispute one side viz. the islamist side bases its criticism of the Danish position on religious morality ; the Danes on the other hand are completely secular. The picture then according to bro bartebly looks like this : the Danish position is amoral because there can be no right/wrong without belief in god . The Islamist position on the other hand is ethical because it is grounded in religion . So you must side with the Islamists in this case ? :-/</p>
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