Comments on: Thrasymachus and Realism http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sat, 26 May 2012 21:58:23 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: David Nollmeyer http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-144371 David Nollmeyer Thu, 16 Feb 2006 04:06:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-144371 Dear John I would add the fall of the IDEAL STATE. Also I would consider the Master Passion cases also. The later is quite strong but no doubt our choices of objects is also transfered to the type of tyrant we support and how such eliminates us. This is modern terms yields the subjects of fatalism and dependency. The concepts of plutocracy should be stressed. Oligarchy Timarchy Democracy TYRANNY We live in a Perfect Dictator with convergent totalitarianism. The emperor has no clothes. There are no Philosopher Kings! PEACE and GOOD LUCK! David Nollmeyer Dear John

I would add the fall of the IDEAL STATE. Also I would consider the Master Passion cases also.

The later is quite strong but no doubt our choices of objects is also transfered to the type of tyrant we support and how such eliminates us.

This is modern terms yields the subjects of fatalism and dependency.

The concepts of plutocracy should be stressed.

Oligarchy
Timarchy
Democracy
TYRANNY

We live in a Perfect Dictator with convergent totalitarianism.

The emperor has no clothes.

There are no Philosopher Kings!
PEACE and GOOD LUCK!

David Nollmeyer

]]> By: John Holbo http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-144017 John Holbo Tue, 14 Feb 2006 04:12:24 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-144017 Thanks for all the suggestions. Keep 'em coming, if you wouldn't mind. Thanks for all the suggestions. Keep ‘em coming, if you wouldn’t mind.

]]> By: Dennis Whitcomb http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-144005 Dennis Whitcomb Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:57:23 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-144005 I like the first chapter of Walzer's book Just and Unjust Wars. It isn't online as far as I know, and it is a case *against* realism. But still it is good, and in the past it has gone over well with my students. I like the first chapter of Walzer’s book Just and Unjust Wars. It isn’t online as far as I know, and it is a case against realism. But still it is good, and in the past it has gone over well with my students.

]]> By: Another Damned Medievalist http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143997 Another Damned Medievalist Tue, 14 Feb 2006 00:14:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143997 Just because I'm picky ... I believe it's normally the <i>Melian Dialogue</i> and the <i>Mytilenean Debate</i>. Because, really, there's not much to debate on Melos -- the Melians are screwed. But the other is actually a debate over what to do about Mytilene. Just because I’m picky … I believe it’s normally the Melian Dialogue and the Mytilenean Debate. Because, really, there’s not much to debate on Melos—the Melians are screwed. But the other is actually a debate over what to do about Mytilene.

]]> By: elton http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143927 elton Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:48:05 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143927 <i>I know there’s a ton of stuff, but I want something clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, and preferably available online. Suggestions?</i> Sounds like my lazy students... I know there’s a ton of stuff, but I want something clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, and preferably available online. Suggestions?

Sounds like my lazy students…

]]> By: Duncan Bell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143893 Duncan Bell Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:56:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143893 Two more things. Thomas Nagel, "The Problem of Global Justice," Philosophy & Public Affairs, 33/2 (2005), can be read as a realist argument. And you should also check out Noel Malcolm's excellent essay on "Hobbes and International Relations" in his "Aspects of Hobbes" (OUP). This clears up many of the misleading readings offered by realists and their critics (including Mogenthau, Hedley Bull and Charles Beitz). A shorter version, called "What Hobbes Really Said," can be found in The National Interest (Fall 2005). Two more things. Thomas Nagel, “The Problem of Global Justice,” Philosophy & Public Affairs, 33/2 (2005), can be read as a realist argument. And you should also check out Noel Malcolm’s excellent essay on “Hobbes and International Relations” in his “Aspects of Hobbes” (OUP). This clears up many of the misleading readings offered by realists and their critics (including Mogenthau, Hedley Bull and Charles Beitz). A shorter version, called “What Hobbes Really Said,” can be found in The National Interest (Fall 2005).

]]> By: Duncan Bell http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143892 Duncan Bell Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:49:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143892 Aside from Michael Williams, "The Realist Tradition and the Limits of International Relations" (CUP), you might want to look over Richard Ned Lebow, "The Tragic Vision of Politics" (CUP), especially the long chapters on Morgenthau and Clausewitz. Williams also has an excellent article, "What is the National Interest? The Neoconservative Challenge in IR Theory," in the European Journal of International Relations (11/3:2005), which compares and contrasts the neo-cons and classcial realism. He is also editing a forthcoming OUP book on the legacy of Morgenthau. There is also some interesting material in Roger Spegele, "Political Realism in International Theory" (CUP). Simon Caney, in his recent "Justice Beyond Borders" (OUP), offers a series of criticisms of realists (mainly Waltz and Morgenthau) from a liberal-egalitarian position. Aside from Michael Williams, “The Realist Tradition and the Limits of International Relations” (CUP), you might want to look over Richard Ned Lebow, “The Tragic Vision of Politics” (CUP), especially the long chapters on Morgenthau and Clausewitz. Williams also has an excellent article, “What is the National Interest? The Neoconservative Challenge in IR Theory,” in the European Journal of International Relations (11/3:2005), which compares and contrasts the neo-cons and classcial realism. He is also editing a forthcoming OUP book on the legacy of Morgenthau. There is also some interesting material in Roger Spegele, “Political Realism in International Theory” (CUP). Simon Caney, in his recent “Justice Beyond Borders” (OUP), offers a series of criticisms of realists (mainly Waltz and Morgenthau) from a liberal-egalitarian position.

]]> By: Chris W. http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143864 Chris W. Mon, 13 Feb 2006 04:18:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143864 Mark mentioned Mearsheimer's article, you could also use the introduction to his book "The Tragedy of Great Power Politics" which gives a pretty good (albeit brief) overview of twentieth century realist thought and lays out the basic tenets of his own theory of offensive realism. The only problem with it is that Mearsheimer is very specifically concerned with explaining the patterns of great power war over the 19th and 20th centuries. Mark mentioned Mearsheimer’s article, you could also use the introduction to his book “The Tragedy of Great Power Politics” which gives a pretty good (albeit brief) overview of twentieth century realist thought and lays out the basic tenets of his own theory of offensive realism. The only problem with it is that Mearsheimer is very specifically concerned with explaining the patterns of great power war over the 19th and 20th centuries.

]]> By: Matt http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143857 Matt Mon, 13 Feb 2006 03:15:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143857 Isn't there some sort of expert on international relations, one who might know something on this, who works right here, on this blog? Isn’t there some sort of expert on international relations, one who might know something on this, who works right here, on this blog?

]]> By: otto http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143849 otto Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:26:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143849 Not sure that the text of the Baker/Aziz letter is available anywhere. Not sure that the text of the Baker/Aziz letter is available anywhere.

]]> By: bloop http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143847 bloop Mon, 13 Feb 2006 02:12:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143847 I recommend Kenneth Waltz <i>Man, the State, and War</i> I recommend Kenneth Waltz Man, the State, and War

]]> By: Joe Miller http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143843 Joe Miller Mon, 13 Feb 2006 00:54:28 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143843 It's not exactly contemporary, but if you want to talk realism, Clausewitz isn't a bad place to start. Chapter one of <i>On War</i> is available <a HREF="http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/61/108/frameset.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. If you have JSTOR, then George Mavrodes' "Conventions and the Morality of War" (<i>Philosophy & Public Affairs</i> 4.2 (Winter 1975): 117-131. Not online but still worth looking at is Robert Osgood, <i>Ideals and Self-Interest in America’s Foreign Relations</i> (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1953). It’s not exactly contemporary, but if you want to talk realism, Clausewitz isn’t a bad place to start. Chapter one of On War is available here.

If you have JSTOR, then George Mavrodes’ “Conventions and the Morality of War” (Philosophy & Public Affairs 4.2 (Winter 1975): 117-131.

Not online but still worth looking at is Robert Osgood, Ideals and Self-Interest in America’s Foreign Relations (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1953).

]]> By: Martin James http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143835 Martin James Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:37:39 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143835 Does anybody know if the letter James Baker gave Tariq Aziz to give to Saddam Hussein before the First Gulf War that Mr. Aziz declined to pass along is available? It passes the clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, tests but what about preferably available online.? Does anybody know if the letter James Baker gave Tariq Aziz to give to Saddam Hussein before the First Gulf War that Mr. Aziz declined to pass along is available?

It passes the clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, tests but what about preferably available online.?

]]> By: Mark http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143825 Mark Sun, 12 Feb 2006 19:53:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143825 I would second Dan Kervick's recommendation of Morgenthau as the classic statement of 20th century realism. A couple of other pieces that I use in my IR intro course are William Wohlforth - "The Stability of a Unipolar World" (International Security, Vol. 14, No. 1) (especially useful for thinking about current events) and John Mearsheimer's article from Atlantic Monthly "Why We Will Soon Miss the Cold War" from August 1990 (available to registered users of the Atlantic website, but also, apparently, here: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=713) The Mearsheimer article has lost a bit of its initial shock value and has been overtaken by events (the post-Cold War world is clearly not the multipolar system that he seemed to envision,) but still gets to the heart of much of the realist worldview (balance of power, self-help, etc.) I would second Dan Kervick’s recommendation of Morgenthau as the classic statement of 20th century realism.
A couple of other pieces that I use in my IR intro course are William Wohlforth – “The Stability of a Unipolar World” (International Security, Vol. 14, No. 1) (especially useful for thinking about current events) and John Mearsheimer’s article from Atlantic Monthly “Why We Will Soon Miss the Cold War” from August 1990 (available to registered users of the Atlantic website, but also, apparently, here: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=713)

The Mearsheimer article has lost a bit of its initial shock value and has been overtaken by events (the post-Cold War world is clearly not the multipolar system that he seemed to envision,) but still gets to the heart of much of the realist worldview (balance of power, self-help, etc.)

]]> By: C. L. Ball http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/12/thrasymachus-and-realism/comment-page-1/#comment-143819 C. L. Ball Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:40:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4301#comment-143819 <blockquote> I want something clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, and preferably available online. </blockquote> Good luck. But since you didn't say contemporary and if your students have access to JSTOR, see Robert Gilpin, "The Theory of Hegemonic War," <i>Journal of Interdisciplinary History</i> Vol. 18, No. 4, (Spring, 1988) , pp. 591-613. Keep in mind that Gilpin tends to regard realism more as a philosophy of history than an empirical theory per se. The virtue of this piece is that it draws heavily on Thucydides. If you want more on realism as normative theory of foreign policy rather than as an empirical theory of international politics, I haven't seen anything I've liked recently.

I want something clear, lively, not too hard, not too long, and preferably available online.

Good luck. But since you didn’t say contemporary and if your students have access to JSTOR, see Robert Gilpin, “The Theory of Hegemonic War,” Journal of Interdisciplinary History Vol. 18, No. 4, (Spring, 1988) , pp. 591-613.

Keep in mind that Gilpin tends to regard realism more as a philosophy of history than an empirical theory per se. The virtue of this piece is that it draws heavily on Thucydides. If you want more on realism as normative theory of foreign policy rather than as an empirical theory of international politics, I haven’t seen anything I’ve liked recently.

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