Comments on: The Kingmaker, Part II http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:39:10 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: J Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145913 J Thomas Sun, 26 Feb 2006 16:25:37 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145913 Jet, you don't see Hamas doing any of those things either. It looks to me like you're trying to convert a small quantitative difference into a large qualitative difference. Jet, you don’t see Hamas doing any of those things either. It looks to me like you’re trying to convert a small quantitative difference into a large qualitative difference.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145894 abb1 Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:59:38 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145894 Btw, this has nothing to do with any transfers. Erasing a state is just that - erasing a <i>state</i>. The Soviet Union was recently erased. The third reich was erased. Austro-Hungarian empire was completely erased. Plenty of states got erased, it happens all the time. I don't see why Israel is so special that it can't be erased - obviously everyone can see that it doesn't function very well. Btw, this has nothing to do with any transfers. Erasing a state is just that – erasing a state. The Soviet Union was recently erased. The third reich was erased. Austro-Hungarian empire was completely erased. Plenty of states got erased, it happens all the time. I don’t see why Israel is so special that it can’t be erased – obviously everyone can see that it doesn’t function very well.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145892 abb1 Sun, 26 Feb 2006 13:50:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145892 Without having to support anything here, Hamas agenda of completey erasing Israel definitely has better justification than Likud/Kadima agenda - and practice - of completey erasing Palestinian state. If this is not obvious to you - you're insane. Or, rather, consumed by some medieval tribal stupidity, which is not much better. Without having to support anything here, Hamas agenda of completey erasing Israel definitely has better justification than Likud/Kadima agenda – and practice – of completey erasing Palestinian state.

If this is not obvious to you – you’re insane. Or, rather, consumed by some medieval tribal stupidity, which is not much better.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145850 jet Sun, 26 Feb 2006 05:23:16 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145850 J Thomas, One thing I keep in mind is that Israel went through decades of attacks on their civilians before beginning a program of expansion. And when you say <i>How many israelis support the policy of transfer?</i> I would answer, not enough to vote into power a party who's charter is to destroy Palestine as a state, take all of the Palestinian territory for Israel, and either convert or kill all the Jews. You can pretend their is parity here, but their are huges degrees of differences. Gross generalizations get us no where. Likud and Hamas are not different sides of the same coin. Because if they were, the overwhelming suppiority of the Israely military would be blowing up every pizza joint, school house, and open market in Palestine as we speak. J Thomas,
One thing I keep in mind is that Israel went through decades of attacks on their civilians before beginning a program of expansion. And when you say How many israelis support the policy of transfer? I would answer, not enough to vote into power a party who’s charter is to destroy Palestine as a state, take all of the Palestinian territory for Israel, and either convert or kill all the Jews. You can pretend their is parity here, but their are huges degrees of differences. Gross generalizations get us no where. Likud and Hamas are not different sides of the same coin. Because if they were, the overwhelming suppiority of the Israely military would be blowing up every pizza joint, school house, and open market in Palestine as we speak.

]]> By: J Thomas http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145844 J Thomas Sun, 26 Feb 2006 01:30:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145844 Jet, at least pretend to be a little reasonable. How many israelis support the policy of transfer? Between completely erasing palestine versus completely erasing israel, which has the greater chance to actually happen? So it's irresponsible to support which side? Jet, at least pretend to be a little reasonable.

How many israelis support the policy of transfer?

Between completely erasing palestine versus completely erasing israel, which has the greater chance to actually happen?

So it’s irresponsible to support which side?

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145840 jet Sun, 26 Feb 2006 00:00:00 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145840 Hank, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make, but I have a feeling you should read more closely what I said as you probably misinterpreted it. But in counter to your post on "ginormous-hugmungo-dectillion-huge-o-bigo-large-o" american bases that, my god, have (try not to faint) football and pizza, try <a href="http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20060225/1069636.asp" rel="nofollow">this</a>. Hank, I’m not sure what point you were trying to make, but I have a feeling you should read more closely what I said as you probably misinterpreted it.

But in counter to your post on “ginormous-hugmungo-dectillion-huge-o-bigo-large-o” american bases that, my god, have (try not to faint) football and pizza, try this.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145837 jet Sat, 25 Feb 2006 22:45:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145837 Abb1, <blockquote>have to admit that Hamas has a much better case for “Muslim state” in Palestine than your Likud/Kadima boys for a “Jewish state”.</blockquote>Wow, this should be immortalized. You appear to support the Hamas agenda of completey erasing Israel. I'm sure you hear this several times a day, but just in case you haven't, let me remind you. You are insane. Abb1,
have to admit that Hamas has a much better case for “Muslim state” in Palestine than your Likud/Kadima boys for a “Jewish state”.
Wow, this should be immortalized. You appear to support the Hamas agenda of completey erasing Israel. I’m sure you hear this several times a day, but just in case you haven’t, let me remind you. You are insane.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145821 abb1 Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:41:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145821 Well, I wouldn't go so far as to call those Hamas fellas "the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers" as Mr. Reagan did. I, however, have to admit that Hamas has a much better case for "Muslim state" in Palestine than your Likud/Kadima boys for a "Jewish state". So, you, Jet, being pretty much their equivalent with much weaker justification and much beter weapons, you don't really have any reason to complain about Hamas. Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to call those Hamas fellas “the moral equivalent of our Founding Fathers” as Mr. Reagan did. I, however, have to admit that Hamas has a much better case for “Muslim state” in Palestine than your Likud/Kadima boys for a “Jewish state”.

So, you, Jet, being pretty much their equivalent with much weaker justification and much beter weapons, you don’t really have any reason to complain about Hamas.

]]> By: hank http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-2/#comment-145820 hank Sat, 25 Feb 2006 17:26:11 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145820 Look for the obvious, eh? Remember, developing alternative sources of energy would be dishonoring our war dead. Can You Say "Permanent Bases"? The American Press Can't By Tom Engelhardt "... nothing could be more concrete -- though less generally discussed in our media -- than the set of enormous bases the Pentagon has long been building in that country. ... "...Representing a staggering investment of resources, effort, and geostrategic dreaming, they are the unlikeliest places for the Bush administration to hand over willingly to even the friendliest of Iraqi governments. "... For the first time, we have actual descriptions of a couple of the "super-bases" built in Iraq in the last two and a half years and, despite being written by reporters under Pentagon information restrictions, they are sobering. Thomas Ricks of the Washington Post paid a visit to Balad Air Base, the largest American base in the country, 68 kilometers north of Baghdad .... ... ".... of the troops at Balad, "only several hundred have jobs that take them off base. Most Americans posted here never interact with an Iraqi." ... "Recently, Oliver Poole, a British reporter, visited another of the American "super-bases," the still-under-construction al-Asad Airbase (Football and pizza point to US staying for long haul). He observes, of "the biggest Marine camp in western Anbar province," .... There are at least four such "super-bases" in Iraq, none of which have anything to do with "withdrawal" from that country. ....Whatever top administration officials and military commanders say -- and they always deny that we seek "permanent" bases in Iraq -– facts-on-the-ground speak with another voice entirely. These bases practically scream "permanency." "Unfortunately, there's a problem here. American reporters adhere to a simple rule: The words "permanent," "bases," and "Iraq" should never be placed in the same sentence ....such bases, imposing as they are, generally only exist in our papers in the negative.) ..." http://www.google.com/search?q=%22permanent+US+bases+in+Iraq%22&start=0 Look for the obvious, eh?

Remember, developing alternative sources of energy would be dishonoring our war dead.

Can You Say “Permanent Bases”?
The American Press Can’t
By Tom Engelhardt

“… nothing could be more concrete—though less generally discussed in our media—than the set of enormous bases the Pentagon has long been building in that country. …
“…Representing a staggering investment of resources, effort, and geostrategic dreaming, they are the unlikeliest places for the Bush administration to hand over willingly to even the friendliest of Iraqi governments.
“… For the first time, we have actual descriptions of a couple of the “super-bases” built in Iraq in the last two and a half years and, despite being written by reporters under Pentagon information restrictions, they are sobering. Thomas Ricks of the Washington Post paid a visit to Balad Air Base, the largest American base in the country, 68 kilometers north of Baghdad ….
…
“…. of the troops at Balad, “only several hundred have jobs that take them off base. Most Americans posted here never interact with an Iraqi.”
…
“Recently, Oliver Poole, a British reporter, visited another of the American “super-bases,” the still-under-construction al-Asad Airbase (Football and pizza point to US staying for long haul). He observes, of “the biggest Marine camp in western Anbar province,” ….

There are at least four such “super-bases” in Iraq, none of which have anything to do with “withdrawal” from that country. ….Whatever top administration officials and military commanders say—and they always deny that we seek “permanent” bases in Iraq -– facts-on-the-ground speak with another voice entirely. These bases practically scream “permanency.”

“Unfortunately, there’s a problem here. American reporters adhere to a simple rule: The words “permanent,” “bases,” and “Iraq” should never be placed in the same sentence ….such bases, imposing as they are, generally only exist in our papers in the negative.) …”

http://www.google.com/search?q=%22permanent+US+bases+in+Iraq%22&start=0

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145817 jet Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:18:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145817 Abb1, <a href="http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=98189" rel="nofollow">This</a> should give you something a little more recent to work with. Yes, this is the group that was elected by an overwhelming majority by your "chosen people". Abb1,
This should give you something a little more recent to work with. Yes, this is the group that was elected by an overwhelming majority by your “chosen people”.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145816 jet Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:10:14 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145816 Abb1, I dare you to say something bad about Hamas, Fatah, or the PLO. Just for once prove you can actually utter something with a negative connotation about your chosen people. Come on, it really is easy. Fatah being the group that through their terrorist activities in Israel and Jordan instigated the events that led up to Black September, where 10's of thousands of civilians died, and most Palestinians were expelled from Jordan. You have to especially appreciate how Fatah milita would execute Jordanian soldiers, they had kidnapped on leave, by driving 9 inch nails into their heads. Or Perhaps you could check out the PLO aligned groups in Lebanon which shelled dense urban civilian areas causing thousands of deaths. Or maybe you could just say something about the corrupt government that is run like the mafia terrorizing its own people far worse than Israel ever could. Be strong abb1, but you can do it. Abb1,
I dare you to say something bad about Hamas, Fatah, or the PLO. Just for once prove you can actually utter something with a negative connotation about your chosen people. Come on, it really is easy. Fatah being the group that through their terrorist activities in Israel and Jordan instigated the events that led up to Black September, where 10’s of thousands of civilians died, and most Palestinians were expelled from Jordan. You have to especially appreciate how Fatah milita would execute Jordanian soldiers, they had kidnapped on leave, by driving 9 inch nails into their heads. Or Perhaps you could check out the PLO aligned groups in Lebanon which shelled dense urban civilian areas causing thousands of deaths. Or maybe you could just say something about the corrupt government that is run like the mafia terrorizing its own people far worse than Israel ever could.

Be strong abb1, but you can do it.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145814 jet Sat, 25 Feb 2006 16:02:09 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145814 Are you sore I don't share your love of Hamas? Are you sore I don’t share your love of Hamas?

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145677 abb1 Fri, 24 Feb 2006 16:12:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145677 <i>I had the idea you were in IT and would have something a little cleverer like inserting keywords randomly through your comments.</i> Are you sore because I don't share your admiration for Israel's "aid to Palestine" activities? I had the idea you were in IT and would have something a little cleverer like inserting keywords randomly through your comments.

Are you sore because I don’t share your admiration for Israel’s “aid to Palestine” activities?

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145665 jet Fri, 24 Feb 2006 14:31:58 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145665 tw, Why would you call it a theocratic oligarchy? Given the diverse number of people sharing power in Iraq, I certainly wouldn't call it an oligarchy. And barring in grave changes to the Iraqi constitution, it will be one of the most democratic countries in the region. And if the free press remains fairly free, this stands a chance of staying so. Don't take this as a defense of the war. Given the lack of WMD's, I can't find a convincing argument for the invasion. But those soldiers haven't died in vain just yet. tw,
Why would you call it a theocratic oligarchy? Given the diverse number of people sharing power in Iraq, I certainly wouldn’t call it an oligarchy. And barring in grave changes to the Iraqi constitution, it will be one of the most democratic countries in the region. And if the free press remains fairly free, this stands a chance of staying so.

Don’t take this as a defense of the war. Given the lack of WMD’s, I can’t find a convincing argument for the invasion. But those soldiers haven’t died in vain just yet.

]]> By: TW http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-145628 TW Fri, 24 Feb 2006 08:36:04 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/22/the-kingmaker-part-ii/#comment-145628 not that anyone's still reading, but ... i think the lesson is that it's unbearably painful to face the fact that 2,000 American kids have given up their lives to bring theocratic oligarchy & civil war to a country that posed no threat to us. it's UNBEARABLE. literally, my stomach turns in knots & i get a headache when i let myself really think about it for more than a couple of minutes at a time. it says nothing about our ambition or stomach for empire, and everything about the universal tendency toward cognitive dissonance. not that anyone’s still reading, but …

i think the lesson is that it’s unbearably painful to face the fact that 2,000 American kids have given up their lives to bring theocratic oligarchy & civil war to a country that posed no threat to us. it’s UNBEARABLE. literally, my stomach turns in knots & i get a headache when i let myself really think about it for more than a couple of minutes at a time. it says nothing about our ambition or stomach for empire, and everything about the universal tendency toward cognitive dissonance.

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