Right, Zdenek. Nazis, actually, were so kind – they insisted the Jews wore mogendavid – the emblem of Judaism – at all times. Even provided them free of charge in the camps. That’s what “humane treatment” is all about.

So the conclusion you want to draw ( that these are gulags ? )is not supported by balanced look at the evidence I am affraid. The conclusion you want to draw follows only if one selectively picks evidence that one likes. What does this remind you of ?

‘TORTURE: QUICK FACTS

At least 45 detainees died in U.S. custody due to suspected or confirmed criminal homicides.[1] At least eight people were tortured to death. At least 98 detainees have died while in U.S. custody in Iraq or Afghanistan;[2]

At least 69 of the detainees died at locations other than Abu Ghraib;[3]

At least 51 detainees have died in U.S. custody since Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld was informed of the abuses at Abu Ghraib on January 16, 2004;[4]

12 deaths have led to punishments of U.S. personnel;[5]

0 CIA personnel have been charged with wrongdoing in connection with alleged involvement in at least 5 deaths;[6]

As of November 2005, over 83,000 people have been held in U.S. custody, and about 30,000 of those were entered “into the system,” and assigned internment serial numbers in Iraq, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan;[7]

There have been nearly 600 criminal investigations into allegations of detainee abuse; each investigation tends to include more than one U.S. soldier, more than one instance of abuse, and more than one victim. Allegations against 250 Soldiers have been addressed in courts-martial, non-judicial punishments, and other adverse administrative punishments. The highest ranking military member judicially punished in connection with the death of a detainee is Marine Major Clarke Paulus, who was found guilty of maltreatment and dereliction of duty and dismissed from the service.[8]

Reportedly 100-150 individuals have been rendered from U.S. custody to a foreign country known to torture prisoners, including to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Pakistan;[9]

There are 6 main acknowledged U.S. detention facilities worldwide—3 in Iraq, 2 in Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay;[10]

There are approximately 25 transient facilities – field prisons designed to house detainees only for a short period until they can be released or transferred to a more permanent facility-in Afghanistan and Iraq;[11]

There are believed to be at least 11 ‘secret’ detention locations used since September 2001. They are/were CIA facilities in Afghanistan, Guantanamo, Poland, Romania, and Jordan, detention facilities in Alizai, Kohat and Peshawar in Pakistan, a facility on the U.S. Naval Base on the island of Diego-Garcia, and detentions of prisoners on U.S. ships, particularly the USS Peleliu and USS Bataan.[12]

Over 15,000 people are currently in U.S. detention in just Iraq, Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay. As of February 16, 2006, in Iraq, there were 14,389 detainees in U.S. custody; as of December 2005, the U.S. was holding approximately 500 detainees in Afghanistan; as of February 10, 2006 there are approximately 490 detainees held at Guantanamo Bay and one enemy combatants held in the U.S.;[13]

36 prisoners are believed to be held in unknown locations;[14]

At least 376 foreign fighters detained in Iraq to whom the Administration has asserted the Geneva Conventions do not apply;[15]

There were up to 100 ghost detainees in Iraq;[16]

The U.S. transferred at least one dozen prisoners out of Iraq for further interrogation in violation of the Geneva Conventions;[17]

8 percent of 517 Guantanamo detainees were considered al Qaeda fighters by the U.S. Government. Of the remaining detainees, 40% have no definitive connection to al Qaeda or Taliban.[18] ’

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/misc/factsheet.htm

‘So in Cuba for instance ( you should go for a visit sometime to get a real perspective on oppresion instead of this cheap boutique left talk of US hegemony )’.

I know I should shouldn’t I. Things are terrible in Cuba right now aren’t they?.

Anyway the joy of democracy is that it doesn’t MATTER what I think. It also doesn’t matter what you think. What matters is what the majority thinks.

‘Asked what they would like the newly elected Iraqi government to ask the US led forces to do, 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces. This number divides evenly between 35% who favor a short time frame of “within six months” and 35% who favor a gradual reduction over two years. Just 29% say it should “only reduce US-led forces as the security situation improves in Iraq.”’

‘Just 30 percent approve of how Mr. Bush is handling the Iraq war, another all-time low.

By two to one, the poll finds Americans think U.S. efforts to bring stability to Iraq are going badly – the worst assessment yet of progress in Iraq. ’

‘The war in Iraq has increased the likelihood of terrorist attacks around the world and U.S.-led coalition troops should withdraw from the Middle Eastern nation, according to the majority of people polled in 35 countries in a British Broadcasting Corp. survey. ’

‘AN overwhelming 85 per cent of people blame the Iraq invasion for the London bombings, a Daily Mirror/GMTV poll reveals today.’

‘An October poll of six Arab nations indicates 78 percent of respondents thought “there was more terrorism because of the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, with four out of five saying the war had brought less peace to the region.”’

Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

so: how can the vast majority of ordinary people round the world ‘see through the disguise and pretence and are able to look behind the mask of all the pretence and see the truth : racism , sexism , exploitation , selfishness , greed.’

Well I don’t know mate. The question, perhaps, is how can ordinary people see this when assimilated Borg like conformists like yourself CAN’T see these things?

Perhaps cos ordinary people aren’t completely fucking stupid?

Do you think?

Bullshit and you know it. My point was (very very very obviously) that the WORD democracy and the CONCEPT of certain cultures that are (apparently) ‘naturally’ democratic was used as a battering ram to beat down the natives.

Self-evidently I have no problems with the actuality of democracy. In fact I strongly approve of it. That is why I disapprove strongly of apartheid. Never forget, South Africa posited itself as a democracy and part of the free world, with the ‘bantustans’ as being other democratic states that just happened to be in the worst part of the country.

Likewise, the US (until 1965) and Australia (also 1965) were not true democracies (and if you don’t know what happened in 1965, you really should). Other ‘Western’ countries that prattled on about democracy were even later: Switzerland did not give women the vote until 1971. The fact is that until incredibly recently the West was much happier giving the rhetoric and illusion of democracy than the reality. As was the case in South Africa. As is the case in Iraq.

You did not mention my point, incidentally, that at the moment Equatorial Guinea, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE, Pakistan (and i could go on….) are currently part of the ‘free world’. Venezuela, on the other hand, apparently isn’t. Does this tell us anything about the use of the word ‘free’ by Bush and Blair?

‘3 small observations: first it may have escaped your attention that the leaders of the coalition are all democratically elected and that Bush was reelected during the war.’

It may have escaped YOUR attention that in the US the only choices for the presidence (democrats and republicans) both back the war to a greater or lesser extent so voters have no choice but to vote for the war: this despite the fact that huge and consistent majorities oppose it. Of course the fact that in, allegedly, the freest country in the world voters have no choice about what is without doubt the most serious issue facing the country doesn’t bother you. See my point about the illusion versus the reality of democracy above.

‘Second the argument which says that the war must be unjustified because it is waged by the elites and in their own iterests is a non sequitur.’

I didn’t say it was unjustified because it was waged by elites. I said it was unjustified because it was illegal (which is was). My point was that pro-invasioners continue to bleat on about ‘why is it that the left who once fought….’ etc. That’s irrelevant. it is not the LEFT who oppose the war (in case you hadn’t noticed, in the UK, the ‘left’ are in government). It is the majority of British, American and Iraqi people who oppose the occupation. It is only a tiny minority, based in the media, politics, and certain strands of the business community (not all of them) who are in favour of the war.

Incidentally I have a big problem with totalitarianism. You on the other hand support Bush and Blair as they give it succour in Pakistan, Egypt, Equatorial Guinea, (etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.) and large chunks of Iraq. Bush and Blair loved totalitarianism and they still do. CF their assault on civil liberties in their own countries.

Here’s another opinion poll that was under reported and then outrageously spun in our allegedly free press. Anyway the money shot is this: ‘Asked what they would like the newly elected Iraqi government to ask the US led forces to do, 70% of Iraqis favor setting a timeline for the withdrawal of US forces. This number divides evenly between 35% who favor a short time frame of “within six months” and 35% who favor a gradual reduction over two years. Just 29% say it should “only reduce US-led forces as the security situation improves in Iraq.”’

Likewise, solid majorities in favour of a phased withdrawal have also been apparent in British opinion polls too.

It can’t be said enough that this is NOT a war that has democratic backing or democratic legitimacy. This has been a war by elites, in the US, the UK and, yes, Iraq, waging war for their own purposes, and if ordinary (real) people don’t like it, they can go and whistle.

Zdenek and his like parrot the phrases: ‘democracy’, ‘liberty’ etc. but in fact they are opposed to democracy in every fibre of their being. They wanted a government BY smug public school boys with a background in the media, FOR smug public schoolboys with a background in the media.