Comments on: Well Thank Christ for That http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 06:15:54 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Tad Brennan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146166 Tad Brennan Tue, 28 Feb 2006 18:57:51 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146166 bmm60-- where did I reveal or offer to reveal my GRE scores? So far as I know, they are still a closely-guarded secret. I'm looking up-thread, and I just don't find it. Oh--I did say that I *took* them in the mid-80's. But I'm pretty sure that my *score* was higher than the mid-80's. I mean, I think I broke into at least the low triple-digits. bmm60—
where did I reveal or offer to reveal my GRE scores? So far as I know, they are still a closely-guarded secret. I’m looking up-thread, and I just don’t find it.

Oh—I did say that I took them in the mid-80’s. But I’m pretty sure that my score was higher than the mid-80’s. I mean, I think I broke into at least the low triple-digits.

]]> By: Harald Korneliussen http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146066 Harald Korneliussen Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:28:20 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146066 abb1 wrote: "Never heard of this “mode” thing. Only guessed it by elimination." Same here, actually, but I can defend myself by saying I learned mathemathics in norwegian (I may know the norwegian word for what mode is, but I can't think of it right now). As to the ambiguous questions that have been pointed out (is -7 prime? whole? etc), I solved all of them correctly by thinking about how the test makers would be thinking. Really, that's what you have to do, especially on tests with trick questions or tests with poorly defined questions (like IQ tests). It seems to me s.c mental tests mostly measure your ability to figure out what's expected of you, which may or may not correlate with your ability to actually do those things. For tests where I don't know the test makers personally, I assume they are complete jerks. I then resolve to not give them the satisfaction of me failing, and cooly and arrogantly see through their attempts to show off their own cleverness. It works. abb1 wrote: “Never heard of this “mode” thing. Only guessed it by elimination.”

Same here, actually, but I can defend myself by saying I learned mathemathics in norwegian (I may know the norwegian word for what mode is, but I can’t think of it right now).

As to the ambiguous questions that have been pointed out (is -7 prime? whole? etc), I solved all of them correctly by thinking about how the test makers would be thinking. Really, that’s what you have to do, especially on tests with trick questions or tests with poorly defined questions (like IQ tests). It seems to me s.c mental tests mostly measure your ability to figure out what’s expected of you, which may or may not correlate with your ability to actually do those things.

For tests where I don’t know the test makers personally, I assume they are complete jerks. I then resolve to not give them the satisfaction of me failing, and cooly and arrogantly see through their attempts to show off their own cleverness.

It works.

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146058 joel turnipseed Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:53:08 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146058 bmm60-- Alas, contrary to kb's suspicions, I revealed my scores only because a) they were not brilliant but didn't suck and b) it was empirically interesting (statistically and as an very obvious instance of the moral failure of self-aggrandizement). I only took the GREs, in fact, as a last ditch effort to salvage some attempt at academic career after doing very poorly early in college (several incompletes turned F, C's and D's in Calculus sort of thing) & when my just-below 3.0 average (though much, much higher within my philosophy major) and high GRE scores didn't cut it for early acceptance to grad schools at the end of my junior year I... dropped out. My two other passions, writing and software, both happened to be fields in which one could succeed regardless of academic credentials and I (rather foolishly, in retrospect--though I don't wholly regret it) decided it was high time to start <em>working</em> rather than studying if I was going to make something of myself. Having since started and sold both a book and a software company (and, as visiting writer, <em>taught</em> at universities), I can't say I've done too badly--though I hardly hold this as badge of honor--or, at least, if a badge of honor (I confess!), one badly tarnished by more than one act of foolhardy fuck-u-ism and unwarranted bravado. bmm60—
Alas, contrary to kb’s suspicions, I revealed my scores only because a) they were not brilliant but didn’t suck and b) it was empirically interesting (statistically and as an very obvious instance of the moral failure of self-aggrandizement). I only took the GREs, in fact, as a last ditch effort to salvage some attempt at academic career after doing very poorly early in college (several incompletes turned F, C’s and D’s in Calculus sort of thing) & when my just-below 3.0 average (though much, much higher within my philosophy major) and high GRE scores didn’t cut it for early acceptance to grad schools at the end of my junior year I… dropped out. My two other passions, writing and software, both happened to be fields in which one could succeed regardless of academic credentials and I (rather foolishly, in retrospect—though I don’t wholly regret it) decided it was high time to start working rather than studying if I was going to make something of myself. Having since started and sold both a book and a software company (and, as visiting writer, taught at universities), I can’t say I’ve done too badly—though I hardly hold this as badge of honor—or, at least, if a badge of honor (I confess!), one badly tarnished by more than one act of foolhardy fuck-u-ism and unwarranted bravado.

]]> By: bmm6o http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146057 bmm6o Tue, 28 Feb 2006 04:27:48 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146057 I was going to join tad and joel's math-GRE-score-revealing party until kb came and took the fun out of it. :-(. The subject-specific GRE tests that I am familiar with (math, physics) are ass-kickers, mostly because of their breadth. kb scored 300 on his/her math GRE's! I was going to join tad and joel’s math-GRE-score-revealing party until kb came and took the fun out of it. :-(.

The subject-specific GRE tests that I am familiar with (math, physics) are ass-kickers, mostly because of their breadth.

kb scored 300 on his/her math GRE’s!

]]> By: Steven Crane http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146046 Steven Crane Mon, 27 Feb 2006 22:19:34 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146046 <i>Hunh. So after my comments above I decided to go look at some other Grade 8 math problems. These ones are MUCH tougher, and also much tougher than I remember Grade 8 math being:</i> I should say so! Question 1 requires you to consider the time-value of money! "The Adams family was going to buy a car for $5800. The car dealer offered the Adams family two options for buying the car. They could pay the full amount in cash, or they could pay $1000.00 down and $230.00 a month for 24 months on the installment plan. How much more would they pay for the car on the installment plan?" If there's high inflation, all of a sudden the installment plan looks like it could be a sweet deal! Hunh. So after my comments above I decided to go look at some other Grade 8 math problems.

These ones are MUCH tougher, and also much tougher than I remember Grade 8 math being:

I should say so! Question 1 requires you to consider the time-value of money!

“The Adams family was going to buy a car for $5800. The car dealer offered the Adams family two options for buying the car. They could pay the full amount in cash, or they could pay $1000.00 down and $230.00 a month for 24 months on the installment plan. How much more would they pay for the car on the installment plan?”

If there’s high inflation, all of a sudden the installment plan looks like it could be a sweet deal!

]]> By: lalala http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146042 lalala Mon, 27 Feb 2006 21:22:45 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146042 The thing I remember about the quantitative section of the GRE is how out of whack the scores and percentiles are - because engineers and mathematicians are taking the same test as the lit scholars and so on, you have to get a very very high score to do very well on the percentile measure. I think I got in the very low 700s, which was 81st percentile, where a somewhat lower score on the SAT had put me in a higher percentile. The thing I remember about the quantitative section of the GRE is how out of whack the scores and percentiles are – because engineers and mathematicians are taking the same test as the lit scholars and so on, you have to get a very very high score to do very well on the percentile measure. I think I got in the very low 700s, which was 81st percentile, where a somewhat lower score on the SAT had put me in a higher percentile.

]]> By: TJ2 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146030 TJ2 Mon, 27 Feb 2006 18:49:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146030 This has always puzzled me, but what is the level of learning that graduate tests presume to test(other than a math-specific GRE)? I've only taken the GMAT (in the early '80s) and I (hazily) recall being a bit surprised that the quantitative portion seemed to top-out about 10th or 11th grade level; i.e., geometry and some Algebra 3-4 stuff, but minimal, if any, college-level calculus or statistics. I had always been a good, but not "advanced," math student, but nonetheless scored at the 99th percentile on the GMAT about 5 years after college with what today apparently would be minimal "preparation" (i.e, a half-day "prep class" for about $50 through UC Extension). I recall that the Harvard Biz School eliminsted the GMAT from their admissions process around 1990 or so, which struck me as a wise move, though don't know if it caught on elsewhere. This has always puzzled me, but what is the level of learning that graduate tests presume to test(other than a math-specific GRE)? I’ve only taken the GMAT (in the early ‘80s) and I (hazily) recall being a bit surprised that the quantitative portion seemed to top-out about 10th or 11th grade level; i.e., geometry and some Algebra 3-4 stuff, but minimal, if any, college-level calculus or statistics. I had always been a good, but not “advanced,” math student, but nonetheless scored at the 99th percentile on the GMAT about 5 years after college with what today apparently would be minimal “preparation” (i.e, a half-day “prep class” for about $50 through UC Extension). I recall that the Harvard Biz School eliminsted the GMAT from their admissions process around 1990 or so, which struck me as a wise move, though don’t know if it caught on elsewhere.

]]> By: KB http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146016 KB Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:09:46 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146016 I got a 10/10 on 8th grade math and I got a above average, but nothing special score on the GRE. Have you ever noticed that those who get 750-800 are the only people who talk about the quantitative section of the GRE past, say, when they've been accepted to a graduate school? I got a 10/10 on 8th grade math and I got a above average, but nothing special score on the GRE.

Have you ever noticed that those who get 750-800 are the only people who talk about the quantitative section of the GRE past, say, when they’ve been accepted to a graduate school?

]]> By: Andrew Edwards http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146014 Andrew Edwards Mon, 27 Feb 2006 16:02:49 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146014 For what it's worth, I worte the GMAT a couple years ago and they've set it up as an adaptive test, so that as you kick the crap out of the easy math questions (or verbal questions), the questions get harder, but if you fail at the easy ones, they get easier. This means that there is still a lot of gradation at the top of the scale. I also think that it's kinda cool. That said, my business school has done some regression to determine what impact GMAT scores have on grades. This research has been informally communicated to me. Turns out that the best performers are not people with high scores per se, but people whose verbal and quant scores do not deviate much from each other. So, all else equal, you'd rather have a person with 85th percentile scores in both math and verbal than a person with 99th percentile math and 75th percentile verbal. For what it’s worth, I worte the GMAT a couple years ago and they’ve set it up as an adaptive test, so that as you kick the crap out of the easy math questions (or verbal questions), the questions get harder, but if you fail at the easy ones, they get easier.

This means that there is still a lot of gradation at the top of the scale. I also think that it’s kinda cool.

That said, my business school has done some regression to determine what impact GMAT scores have on grades. This research has been informally communicated to me. Turns out that the best performers are not people with high scores per se, but people whose verbal and quant scores do not deviate much from each other.

So, all else equal, you’d rather have a person with 85th percentile scores in both math and verbal than a person with 99th percentile math and 75th percentile verbal.

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146013 joel turnipseed Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:59:25 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146013 tad, Or, at least, makes the manques so attractive to (roll drums): editors! Of course, it can also be a hindrance to writing. I was watching the <em>Derrida</em> biography last night (was he embarrassed by that thing? what's with the hair fetish?) & noticed that he said he could not tell stories, because he was always aware of the ways in which they are insufficient accounts: too true. OK, enough of this damned humility thing... gonna have to go get me some Mailer Juice & get back to the day's writing. tad,

Or, at least, makes the manques so attractive to (roll drums): editors! Of course, it can also be a hindrance to writing. I was watching the Derrida biography last night (was he embarrassed by that thing? what’s with the hair fetish?) & noticed that he said he could not tell stories, because he was always aware of the ways in which they are insufficient accounts: too true.

OK, enough of this damned humility thing… gonna have to go get me some Mailer Juice & get back to the day’s writing.

]]> By: Tad Brennan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146012 Tad Brennan Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:45:57 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146012 That's right, joel--no professional philosopher would *ever* inflate their own credentials to make themselves look smarter--even in informal recollection. Unflnching honesty and humility about our intellectual limitations--that's what sets us academic philosophers apart. That’s right, joel—no professional philosopher would ever inflate their own credentials to make themselves look smarter—even in informal recollection. Unflnching honesty and humility about our intellectual limitations—that’s what sets us academic philosophers apart.

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146011 joel turnipseed Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:37:33 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146011 OK, I am on drugs. Was curious about Michael's assertion that "720/800" was 97th percentile and a perfect score would be 92nd percentile. So... I looked things up on my old GRE records. How I embellish myself in my memory... a 670 is in fact what I got on verbal & this is 93rd percentile; 770 on quant turned out to be 93rd percentile, too; while my 720 analytical was just 91st percentile. 800's come down, in order, as 99, 98, and 99 percentile. So: still a pretty damned good score, even if logic is <em>somewhat</em> easier. Guess that penchant for fudge-making (and my dim grades) is why I'm now a writer and not a philosopher... OK, I am on drugs. Was curious about Michael’s assertion that “720/800” was 97th percentile and a perfect score would be 92nd percentile. So… I looked things up on my old GRE records.

How I embellish myself in my memory… a 670 is in fact what I got on verbal & this is 93rd percentile; 770 on quant turned out to be 93rd percentile, too; while my 720 analytical was just 91st percentile. 800’s come down, in order, as 99, 98, and 99 percentile. So: still a pretty damned good score, even if logic is somewhat easier.

Guess that penchant for fudge-making (and my dim grades) is why I’m now a writer and not a philosopher…

]]> By: joel turnipseed http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146008 joel turnipseed Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:18:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146008 tad, michael - I took the GREs in early 90s. It should be noted, however, that I was an undergraduate teaching assistant in formal logic for 2 1/2 years--so I expected to do well in math and logic sections. What I didn't expect, and what threw me for a loop, was that I'd get such a low verbal score (670 or something, based on at least two questions I now remember getting wrong on that damned electronic version, which doesn't let you change your answers) && that, when the 800s came in for math and logic they'd be, as you said, so low percentile-wise (though I remember the logic being a stronger score than the math). Also--there <em>is</em> a math-specific GRE that's much more difficult. tad, michael –
I took the GREs in early 90s. It should be noted, however, that I was an undergraduate teaching assistant in formal logic for 2 1/2 years—so I expected to do well in math and logic sections. What I didn’t expect, and what threw me for a loop, was that I’d get such a low verbal score (670 or something, based on at least two questions I now remember getting wrong on that damned electronic version, which doesn’t let you change your answers) && that, when the 800s came in for math and logic they’d be, as you said, so low percentile-wise (though I remember the logic being a stronger score than the math).

Also—there is a math-specific GRE that’s much more difficult.

]]> By: Steve LaBonne http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146004 Steve LaBonne Mon, 27 Feb 2006 15:03:30 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146004 Wow, if that's really considered 8th grade math we're in even deeper trouble than I thought. Thank goodness my daughter's current 8th grade Algebra 1 class is teaching a bit more than that! Wow, if that’s really considered 8th grade math we’re in even deeper trouble than I thought. Thank goodness my daughter’s current 8th grade Algebra 1 class is teaching a bit more than that!

]]> By: Tad Brennan http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/comment-page-2/#comment-146000 Tad Brennan Mon, 27 Feb 2006 14:44:42 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/02/25/well-thank-christ-for-that/#comment-146000 Michael-- Not sure about that. I, like you, took my GRE's in the mid-80s, and I, like you, have been struck when doing grad admissions by the increasing discrepancy between the absolute and percentile score in the math GRE. (I.e., the fact that a very high absolute score is now a relatively unimpressive percentile score). Could be they have watered the test down. But it could also be that the GRE is taken by a much larger number of people now, including a very large contingent of foreign applicants to engineering, math, science, etc. It's a big world out there, and there's a lot of mathematical talent that would like a US graduate education. So it may be that the test has stayed just as hard, but there are a lot more people scoring 800's on it. This would also explain why the same inflation has not occurred in the Verbal portion, i.e. that it is still providing anglophones with the Mandarin advantage. In philosophy admissions, I take the math GRE very seriously, but it's far from the only criterion. I feel sorry for people doing graduate admissions to a math program, though, since that's exactly where you would hope the Math GRE would provide valuable information, and it really cannot. Presumably there is some sort of informal super-GRE that people who care about math refer to, when trying to select among the hundreds of people who maxed out on their math GRE. Michael—
Not sure about that. I, like you, took my GRE’s in the mid-80s, and I, like you, have been struck when doing grad admissions by the increasing discrepancy between the absolute and percentile score in the math GRE. (I.e., the fact that a very high absolute score is now a relatively unimpressive percentile score).

Could be they have watered the test down. But it could also be that the GRE is taken by a much larger number of people now, including a very large contingent of foreign applicants to engineering, math, science, etc. It’s a big world out there, and there’s a lot of mathematical talent that would like a US graduate education. So it may be that the test has stayed just as hard, but there are a lot more people scoring 800’s on it.

This would also explain why the same inflation has not occurred in the Verbal portion, i.e. that it is still providing anglophones with the Mandarin advantage.

In philosophy admissions, I take the math GRE very seriously, but it’s far from the only criterion. I feel sorry for people doing graduate admissions to a math program, though, since that’s exactly where you would hope the Math GRE would provide valuable information, and it really cannot. Presumably there is some sort of informal super-GRE that people who care about math refer to, when trying to select among the hundreds of people who maxed out on their math GRE.

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