Comments on: Oceania has always been at war with Eurasia http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/ Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made Sun, 22 Nov 2009 10:39:04 -0800 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146659 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 14:05:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146659 abb1 -- lets not quible about words. What is more important is that capitalists are not united by single ideology see African National Gongress which is the ruling party in South Africa and which is essentially socialist but is also capitalist ! abb1—lets not quible about words. What is more important is that capitalists are not united by single ideology see African National Gongress which is the ruling party in South Africa and which is essentially socialist but is also capitalist !

]]> By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146657 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 13:56:53 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146657 abb1-you are confusing the ideology which typically underwrites capitalism in US viz. liberalism or libertarianism and capitalism . These are different things and nothing follows from the fact that they go historically together. You certainly can be a capitalist and be an egalitarian e.g Soros. who is virulently against Bush and against interventionism and against neocons. Or you can be a neocon and anti-capitalist like Blair. You are misusing the term 'ideology'! abb1-you are confusing the ideology which typically underwrites capitalism in US viz. liberalism or libertarianism and capitalism . These are different things and nothing follows from the fact that they go historically together.
You certainly can be a capitalist and be an egalitarian e.g Soros. who is virulently against Bush and against interventionism and against neocons. Or you can be a neocon and anti-capitalist like Blair.
You are misusing the term ‘ideology’!

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146655 abb1 Sun, 05 Mar 2006 13:43:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146655 Of course capitalism is an ideology and religion: it idolizes private property; property is the sacred cow. American liberal version of capitalism also idolizes individualism, individual freedoms (except when it contradicts the highest idol - property rights). It certainly is a comprehensive philosophical idea. Of course capitalism is an ideology and religion: it idolizes private property; property is the sacred cow. American liberal version of capitalism also idolizes individualism, individual freedoms (except when it contradicts the highest idol – property rights). It certainly is a comprehensive philosophical idea.

]]> By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146647 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 12:13:44 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146647 fifi-- your gloss on Iranian revolution is interesting. You suggest that the project is to replace 'modern methods of obedience' with faith i.e. instead of submitting to propaganda , manipulation , and other methods of state control all of which are just methods of control Iran sought to achieve obedience through submision to God. This seems to involve serious misunderstanding of what secular political legitimacy/obligation involves. Legitimacy in liberal democracies at least since Hobbes involves a contract that creates obligation on both parties when freely entered into. So the 'obedience ' factor is just a self imposed obligation that I freely undertake because I want to and because I see some interest in doing so ( Kant provides aditional fleshing out of this way of looking at obligation). So I create the obligation when I enter into an agreement with you. OK so the picture is more complicated than the one you present. Clearly some control involves what you call 'modern methods of obedience' but not all do and this is why I call you take on the matter a caricature. It cannot be taken seriously as analysis. fifi—your gloss on Iranian revolution is interesting. You suggest that the project is to replace ‘modern methods of obedience’ with faith i.e. instead of submitting to propaganda , manipulation , and other methods of state control all of which are just methods of control Iran sought to achieve obedience through submision to God.

This seems to involve serious misunderstanding of what secular political legitimacy/obligation involves. Legitimacy in liberal democracies at least since Hobbes involves a contract that creates obligation on both parties when freely entered into. So the ‘obedience ’ factor is just a self imposed obligation that I freely undertake because I want to and because I see some interest in doing so ( Kant provides aditional fleshing out of this way of looking at obligation). So I create the obligation when I enter into an agreement with you.
OK so the picture is more complicated than the one you present. Clearly some control involves what you call ‘modern methods of obedience’ but not all do and this is why I call you take on the matter a caricature. It cannot be taken seriously as analysis.

]]> By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146644 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:44:06 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146644 john Quiggin- I only present arguments and never use abusive language or hate speech so what is up with 'moderating' my comments ? john Quiggin- I only present arguments and never use abusive language or hate speech so what is up with ‘moderating’ my comments ?

]]> By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146643 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:39:13 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146643 abb1 no capitalism is not an ideology but refers to an economic system in which means of production are largely privately owned and are operated for profit. This is simply a way of operating an economy of a country and not a set of philosophical ideas that provide a comprehensive outlook on the world. Capitalists may be liberals , socialists,libertarians or nazis or christian fundamentalists. So I ask what ideology do 'super rich' share ? abb1
no capitalism is not an ideology but refers to an economic system in which means of production are largely privately owned and are operated for profit. This is simply a way of operating an economy of a country and not a set of philosophical ideas that provide a comprehensive outlook on the world.
Capitalists may be liberals , socialists,libertarians or nazis or christian fundamentalists.
So I ask what ideology do ‘super rich’ share ?

]]> By: zdenek http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146642 zdenek Sun, 05 Mar 2006 10:14:12 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146642 fifi- you clearly value freedom because the gist of you criticism of US is that it is a paradighm example of where 'modern power' pervades our lives and controls us. The background assumptions here are that freedom is a good thing and that emancipation and autonomy is a good thing? Two observations to the extent that taking freedom seriously as you seem to do you subscribe at least tacitly to liberal conception of good ( which puts high premium on political and intellectual freedom ). Second your talk of power pervading our lives suggests commitment to another enlightenment value viz . emancipation and autonomy.These are of course important components of a liberal outlook so your anti westernism seems a bit shallow if you ask me ; a bit of a pose ? fifi-
you clearly value freedom because the gist of you criticism of US is that it is a paradighm example of where ‘modern power’ pervades our lives and controls us. The background assumptions here are that freedom is a good thing and that emancipation and autonomy is a good thing?
Two observations to the extent that taking freedom seriously as you seem to do you subscribe at least tacitly to liberal conception of good ( which puts high premium on political and intellectual freedom ).
Second your talk of power pervading our lives suggests commitment to another enlightenment value viz . emancipation and autonomy.These are of course important components of a liberal outlook so your anti westernism seems a bit shallow if you ask me ; a bit of a pose ?

]]> By: fifi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146637 fifi Sun, 05 Mar 2006 06:46:10 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146637 It just happens to be the war on drugs. If you could end it tomorrow it’d be replaced with a different strategy of control because modern power pervades every aspect of our social and economic life (e.g. terrorism: the smallest risks are existential threats that justify increased control.) "or you are saying that, the Man, ie the government, has used Fox News to manipulate the people into voting for politicians who are for strict drug laws?" It’s not so simple a relationship as between a single causal agent and its effect. Control is many people and institutions dependent on each other for existence, feedback and redundancy. It just happens to be the war on drugs. If you could end it tomorrow it’d be replaced with a different strategy of control because modern power pervades every aspect of our social and economic life (e.g. terrorism: the smallest risks are existential threats that justify increased control.)

“or you are saying that, the Man, ie the government, has used Fox News to manipulate the people into voting for politicians who are for strict drug laws?”

It’s not so simple a relationship as between a single causal agent and its effect. Control is many people and institutions dependent on each other for existence, feedback and redundancy.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146628 jet Sun, 05 Mar 2006 04:30:50 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146628 Fifi, Also I would disagree that the US system is more subjective than the Iranian system. I would say that the US justice system strives for impartiality and objectivity while the Iranian system of clerical justice is about as subjective as it comes. Fifi,
Also I would disagree that the US system is more subjective than the Iranian system. I would say that the US justice system strives for impartiality and objectivity while the Iranian system of clerical justice is about as subjective as it comes.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146627 jet Sun, 05 Mar 2006 04:28:02 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146627 Fifi, Putting drug dealers in jail is a popular thing in the US. So either the high levels of incarceration in the US are how free people have decided to deal with their criminals (a group having broken the social contract, forfeiting their rights), or you are saying that, <i>the Man</i>, ie the government, has used Fox News to manipulate the people into voting for politicians who are for strict drug laws? You seem a very interesting fellow, and I would like to better understand your points. [a side note, the US prison population would be more than halved if drugs were decriminalized, which I'm for in a way.] Fifi,
Putting drug dealers in jail is a popular thing in the US. So either the high levels of incarceration in the US are how free people have decided to deal with their criminals (a group having broken the social contract, forfeiting their rights), or you are saying that, the Man, ie the government, has used Fox News to manipulate the people into voting for politicians who are for strict drug laws?

You seem a very interesting fellow, and I would like to better understand your points.

[a side note, the US prison population would be more than halved if drugs were decriminalized, which I’m for in a way.]

]]> By: fifi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146625 fifi Sun, 05 Mar 2006 03:37:56 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146625 P.S. You give a good example of the success of modern methods of obedience which Islamists revolt against and which to us seem more subjective and less intentional than brutal clerical justice: “stiff laws enacted by the will of the people.” See how obedient we are? Historic rates of incarceration are the ostensible wish of... freedom. I mean it’s magnificent. P.S. You give a good example of the success of modern methods of obedience which Islamists revolt against and which to us seem more subjective and less intentional than brutal clerical justice: “stiff laws enacted by the will of the people.” See how obedient we are? Historic rates of incarceration are the ostensible wish of… freedom. I mean it’s magnificent.

]]> By: fifi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146617 fifi Sun, 05 Mar 2006 02:03:07 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146617 Jet, 25 years ago Iran had a revolution. It overthrew the government of the Shah but also it was an attempt to go into the future by looking back to faith (Islam) instead of to modern methods of obedience, our own authoritarian program of cultural and economic modernization, which in Iran were being pursued by the Shah’s regime. Yes, Iran tried to become something other than a modern nation-state, and failed (though if I had to be born in a Muslim country in the Middle East today I’d choose Iran for reasons cultural and economic.) There isn’t much to choose between the old SAVAK and the theologically purer Ministry of Intelligence. Your reading of my comment... we're not on the same page, frankly. Jet, 25 years ago Iran had a revolution. It overthrew the government of the Shah but also it was an attempt to go into the future by looking back to faith (Islam) instead of to modern methods of obedience, our own authoritarian program of cultural and economic modernization, which in Iran were being pursued by the Shah’s regime. Yes, Iran tried to become something other than a modern nation-state, and failed (though if I had to be born in a Muslim country in the Middle East today I’d choose Iran for reasons cultural and economic.) There isn’t much to choose between the old SAVAK and the theologically purer Ministry of Intelligence.

Your reading of my comment… we’re not on the same page, frankly.

]]> By: jet http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146613 jet Sun, 05 Mar 2006 00:28:54 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146613 Fifi, What are you trying to say there? That Iran tried to become something other than a modern nation-state and failed? I'm not sure what you meant about <i>western liberals</i>, but I'm guessing you mean they are being influenced|controlled by modern technology. And that it took since the first Reagan administration for me to be able to say <i>without blushing</i> that the high number of people in jail is the result of stiff laws enacted by the will of the people? And then you end with some lovely patronizing about how Iran will become westernized (perhaps with democracy, freedom of the press, a list of rights, an end to arbitrary murder and killings, and huge power sapping backlash whenever the government steps out of line)? Fifi,
What are you trying to say there? That Iran tried to become something other than a modern nation-state and failed? I’m not sure what you meant about western liberals, but I’m guessing you mean they are being influenced|controlled by modern technology. And that it took since the first Reagan administration for me to be able to say without blushing that the high number of people in jail is the result of stiff laws enacted by the will of the people? And then you end with some lovely patronizing about how Iran will become westernized (perhaps with democracy, freedom of the press, a list of rights, an end to arbitrary murder and killings, and huge power sapping backlash whenever the government steps out of line)?

]]> By: fifi http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146592 fifi Sat, 04 Mar 2006 19:31:36 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146592 When I say Iran is not worse than the US with respect to the inherent nature of its Islamic politics (i.e. “intrinsically”) I am referring to its unsuccessful revolutionary break from the modern state project in which identical technologies of organization, surveillance, warfare and propaganda have been integrated without a seam in the lives and thinking of western liberals. It took us longer than 25 years to get to where Jet can say today without blushing that historically unprecedented rates of incarceration are the “general will of the people.” Give it some more time, Jet; eventually Iran too will become evil. When I say Iran is not worse than the US with respect to the inherent nature of its Islamic politics (i.e. “intrinsically”) I am referring to its unsuccessful revolutionary break from the modern state project in which identical technologies of organization, surveillance, warfare and propaganda have been integrated without a seam in the lives and thinking of western liberals. It took us longer than 25 years to get to where Jet can say today without blushing that historically unprecedented rates of incarceration are the “general will of the people.” Give it some more time, Jet; eventually Iran too will become evil.

]]> By: abb1 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/comment-page-2/#comment-146572 abb1 Sat, 04 Mar 2006 16:40:55 +0000 http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/02/oceania-has-always-been-at-war-with-eurasia/#comment-146572 <i>What ideology is ‘the super rich ’ : george soros is secular leftie while George Bush is religious right ?</i> Capitalist ideology. I thought I mentioned that. <i>Are these guys cooperating behind the scenes to control you and me ? </i> Sometimes they are cooperating, sometimes they're fighting each other - just like Iranian mullahs. But they always have the power. What is it exactly you don't understand here? What can be more obvious? What ideology is ‘the super rich ’ : george soros is secular leftie while George Bush is religious right ?

Capitalist ideology. I thought I mentioned that.

Are these guys cooperating behind the scenes to control you and me ?

Sometimes they are cooperating, sometimes they’re fighting each other – just like Iranian mullahs. But they always have the power. What is it exactly you don’t understand here? What can be more obvious?

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