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	<title>Comments on: Zizek and Badiou, Where are You</title>
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	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: Kieran Healy</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147584</link>
		<dc:creator>Kieran Healy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 04:26:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147584</guid>
		<description>OK, we&#039;re hitting 150 comments and things seem to have rather spun out of control -- certainly the original post wasn&#039;t meant to be any kind of contribution to the science wars, and I&#039;d rather not continue fighting them here. So it&#039;s time to move on to brighter and fresher threads elsewhere, folks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>OK, we&#8217;re hitting 150 comments and things seem to have rather spun out of control&#8212;certainly the original post wasn&#8217;t meant to be any kind of contribution to the science wars, and I&#8217;d rather not continue fighting them here. So it&#8217;s time to move on to brighter and fresher threads elsewhere, folks.</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147582</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 03:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147582</guid>
		<description>Thanks, z. I started on &lt;a&gt;&quot;Huit thèses sur l&#039;universel&quot;&lt;/a&gt; and was going along OK until I got to this.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Fondamentalement, un événement est ce qui décide sur une zone d&#039;indécidabilité encyclopédique. Plus précisément, il y a une forme implicative de type : E -&gt; d(epsilon), qui se lit : toute subjectivation réelle de l&#039;événement tel qu&#039;il disparaît dans son apparaître, implique que epsilon, qui est indécidable dans la situation, a été décidé. &lt;/blockquote&gt; So, can someone tell me, is this the epsilon I met in company with delta in Intro Calculus, or some other epsilon entirely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Thanks, z. I started on <a>&#8220;Huit th&#232;ses sur l&#8217;universel&#8221;</a> and was going along OK until I got to this.</p>

	<p><blockquote>Fondamentalement, un &#233;v&#233;nement est ce qui d&#233;cide sur une zone d&#8217;ind&#233;cidabilit&#233; encyclop&#233;dique. Plus pr&#233;cis&#233;ment, il y a une forme implicative de type : E -> d(epsilon), qui se lit : toute subjectivation r&#233;elle de l&#8217;&#233;v&#233;nement tel qu&#8217;il dispara&#238;t dans son appara&#238;tre, implique que epsilon, qui est ind&#233;cidable dans la situation, a &#233;t&#233; d&#233;cid&#233;. </blockquote> So, can someone tell me, is this the epsilon I met in company with delta in Intro Calculus, or some other epsilon entirely?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147578</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 03:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147578</guid>
		<description>John, I suppose you might try &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.philosophyandscripture.org/Issue3-1/Woodard/Woodard.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;,  or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cjs.ucla.edu/Mellon/Badiou_What_Is_Love.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;...or &lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.urbanomic.com/num/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://agauche.blogspot.com/2006/03/conference-report.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;à Gauche&lt;/a&gt;, or &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.adamkotsko.com/weblog&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Weblog&#039;s &lt;/a&gt; ongoing reading group if you need help to finish quenching that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>John, I suppose you might try <a href="http://www.philosophyandscripture.org/Issue3-1/Woodard/Woodard.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>,  or <a href="http://www.cjs.ucla.edu/Mellon/Badiou_What_Is_Love.pdf" rel="nofollow">here</a>&#8230;or <a href="http://blog.urbanomic.com/num/" rel="nofollow">here</a>, or <a href="http://agauche.blogspot.com/2006/03/conference-report.html" rel="nofollow">&#224; Gauche</a>, or <a href="http://www.adamkotsko.com/weblog" rel="nofollow">The Weblog&#8217;s </a> ongoing reading group if you need help to finish quenching that.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147576</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 03:01:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147576</guid>
		<description>To John Quiggin in #143
If you read french , Alain Badiou maintains an important philosophical website &lt;a href=&quot;http://ciepfc.rhapsodyk.net/article.php3?id_article=39&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Many articles and interviews &lt;i&gt;en ligne&lt;/i&gt;. I had never heard of him before this CT thread, his site did not entice me to investigate any further. Nice writing style though, if you enjoy continental philosophy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>To John Quiggin in #143<br />
If you read french , Alain Badiou maintains an important philosophical website <a href="http://ciepfc.rhapsodyk.net/article.php3?id_article=39" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Many articles and interviews <i>en ligne</i>. I had never heard of him before this CT thread, his site did not entice me to investigate any further. Nice writing style though, if you enjoy continental philosophy.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Kotsko</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147574</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Kotsko</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147574</guid>
		<description>Kotsko&#039;s Second Law:

&quot;As the length of a thread involving the Troll of Sorrow extends, the probability that the Halting Problem will be mentioned approaches one.&quot;

The fact that it wasn&#039;t The Troll of Sorrow himself who brought up the Halting Problem in this case seems to strengthen this claim.

(Kotsko&#039;s First Law is that bloggers don&#039;t keep their promises.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Kotsko&#8217;s Second Law:</p>

	<p>&#8220;As the length of a thread involving the Troll of Sorrow extends, the probability that the Halting Problem will be mentioned approaches one.&#8221;</p>

	<p>The fact that it wasn&#8217;t The Troll of Sorrow himself who brought up the Halting Problem in this case seems to strengthen this claim.</p>

	<p>(Kotsko&#8217;s First Law is that bloggers don&#8217;t keep their promises.)</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147572</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 02:19:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147572</guid>
		<description>...are set theorists or ontologists party members? The jacobins did not see fit to include the mathematical girondists in the revolution; Cauchy himself was forced to escape the reign of terror... THe pure mathematician may be said to be aligned with the metaphysician and thus with the false consciousness of idealism and/or theology: platonism for centuries been as useful to clerics as it is to advancing knowledge.  that said, applied mathematics, mechanics, programming obviously sort of indispensable....not Comrade Plato, but Commandante Archimedes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8230;are set theorists or ontologists party members? The jacobins did not see fit to include the mathematical girondists in the revolution; Cauchy himself was forced to escape the reign of terror&#8230; THe pure mathematician may be said to be aligned with the metaphysician and thus with the false consciousness of idealism and/or theology: platonism for centuries been as useful to clerics as it is to advancing knowledge.  that said, applied mathematics, mechanics, programming obviously sort of indispensable&#8230;.not Comrade Plato, but Commandante Archimedes</p>
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		<title>By: John Quiggin</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147569</link>
		<dc:creator>John Quiggin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 01:59:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147569</guid>
		<description>&quot;Well in that case, one need only look, and the world of blogs outside of Crooked Timber may provide.&quot;

Now you&#039;re just teasing! OK, despite things I&#039;ve said above, I&#039;ve read enough of Zizek to satisfy myself I don&#039;t really want to read any more. But neither Google nor Technorati produces anything obviously useful on Badiou - how about a link?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;Well in that case, one need only look, and the world of blogs outside of Crooked Timber may provide.&#8221;</p>

	<p>Now you&#8217;re just teasing! OK, despite things I&#8217;ve said above, I&#8217;ve read enough of Zizek to satisfy myself I don&#8217;t really want to read any more. But neither Google nor Technorati produces anything obviously useful on Badiou &#8211; how about a link?</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147566</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 01:35:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147566</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt; There are axiom systems that do not have unprovable truths &lt;/i&gt;

Yes, sir, and since this is a political thread, the issue is why leftists don&#039;t make use of well-defined, &quot;constrained,&quot; systems or models instead of, say, getting carried away with cantor or lacan or hegelian Reason or whatever. A progressive &quot;entitlement model&quot; based on primary needs and resources, housing, existing technology, employment, etc, could be constructed fairly easily it seems, but the leftist-marxist detestation of modeling, quantification, etc. prevents that from happening as much as finance capitalism or a sort of faux-liberal monarchism does.  Which is to say, the progressive  it seems should value mathematical/economic applications and technique more than he does  platonic contemplations (ie set theory as ontology), which may be gratifying for oxfordians or ivy league types but not for citizens taken as, they say, an aggregate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i> There are axiom systems that do not have unprovable truths </i></p>

	<p>Yes, sir, and since this is a political thread, the issue is why leftists don&#8217;t make use of well-defined, &#8220;constrained,&#8221; systems or models instead of, say, getting carried away with cantor or lacan or hegelian Reason or whatever. A progressive &#8220;entitlement model&#8221; based on primary needs and resources, housing, existing technology, employment, etc, could be constructed fairly easily it seems, but the leftist-marxist detestation of modeling, quantification, etc. prevents that from happening as much as finance capitalism or a sort of faux-liberal monarchism does.  Which is to say, the progressive  it seems should value mathematical/economic applications and technique more than he does  platonic contemplations (ie set theory as ontology), which may be gratifying for oxfordians or ivy league types but not for citizens taken as, they say, an aggregate.</p>
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		<title>By: Rich Puchalsky</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147565</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich Puchalsky</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 01:15:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147565</guid>
		<description>&quot;the one immutable law of academia is that no humanist can legitimately draw on theories from outside the humanities&quot;

The problem is that their use of science concepts as metaphors is usually subtly wrong.  Zizek&#039;s use of parallax as a metaphor, for example (from the small bits and pieces I&#039;ve read) breaks down if you know much about parallax.  Parallax is the shift in the apparent position of an object against a background caused by a change in point of view (dictionary.com&#039;s use of &quot;direction&quot; is not really inspired, I&#039;d say) and it&#039;s a very familiar process -- whenever you look at something with two eyes, your brain uses parallax as one of the ways of judging its distance.  Zizek&#039;s emphasis on parallax as metaphor of separation just doesn&#039;t work; the object seen looks the same in either case, and all you have to do to see if against its background differently is change your location a bit.

In Zizek&#039;s case, though, I think that he&#039;s doing this on purpose.  He has previously made arguments that were intended to be seen through in order to mock his enthusiasts.  I&#039;d guess that he finds the idea of people earnestly looking up parallax and their inner worries about whether they&#039;ve gotten him right pretty funny.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>&#8220;the one immutable law of academia is that no humanist can legitimately draw on theories from outside the humanities&#8221;</p>

	<p>The problem is that their use of science concepts as metaphors is usually subtly wrong.  Zizek&#8217;s use of parallax as a metaphor, for example (from the small bits and pieces I&#8217;ve read) breaks down if you know much about parallax.  Parallax is the shift in the apparent position of an object against a background caused by a change in point of view (dictionary.com&#8217;s use of &#8220;direction&#8221; is not really inspired, I&#8217;d say) and it&#8217;s a very familiar process&#8212;whenever you look at something with two eyes, your brain uses parallax as one of the ways of judging its distance.  Zizek&#8217;s emphasis on parallax as metaphor of separation just doesn&#8217;t work; the object seen looks the same in either case, and all you have to do to see if against its background differently is change your location a bit.</p>

	<p>In Zizek&#8217;s case, though, I think that he&#8217;s doing this on purpose.  He has previously made arguments that were intended to be seen through in order to mock his enthusiasts.  I&#8217;d guess that he finds the idea of people earnestly looking up parallax and their inner worries about whether they&#8217;ve gotten him right pretty funny.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147564</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:46:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147564</guid>
		<description>There are axiom systems that do not have unprovable truths.  An example is Euclidean geometry, which even has a (very slow) algorithm to determine if every statement is true or false.  What&#039;s required is that the system allows you to encode all of the axioms of arithmetic.  The system doesn&#039;t have to resemble arithmetic, it just has to be sufficiently expressive to allow the encoding.  

If a system is complete, then there is an algorithm to determine the truth or falsity of every statement in the system.  Let A be a statement. Systematically generate every possible proof in the system.  If you generate a proof of A first, then A is true.  If not-A is true, then A is false.  This algorithm is very, very slow, but in theory it will always terminate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There are axiom systems that do not have unprovable truths.  An example is Euclidean geometry, which even has a (very slow) algorithm to determine if every statement is true or false.  What&#8217;s required is that the system allows you to encode all of the axioms of arithmetic.  The system doesn&#8217;t have to resemble arithmetic, it just has to be sufficiently expressive to allow the encoding.</p>

	<p>If a system is complete, then there is an algorithm to determine the truth or falsity of every statement in the system.  Let A be a statement. Systematically generate every possible proof in the system.  If you generate a proof of A first, then A is true.  If not-A is true, then A is false.  This algorithm is very, very slow, but in theory it will always terminate.</p>
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		<title>By: jake</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147562</link>
		<dc:creator>jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147562</guid>
		<description>The blogger chitchat concering paradox often seems to suggest that within any axiomatic system there are unprovable truths; but then occasionally it&#039;s only arithmetic. Does Goedel&#039;s 1st incompleteness theorem (or the Halting problem) suggest that within any axiomatic system there are unprovable truths, or rather only in arithmetic? Chess for instance is a system with axioms (rules for piece movement); where are the unprovable truths? They might not be easily calculated, but that does not = not able to be calculated; or rather how do we know that truths (the best move) within that well-defined system are not computable in advance?

 The halting problem is a bit different. There may be uncomputable arguments /conclusions within certain systems, but that doesn&#039;t mean that systems cannot be complete, does it.

axiom system:


*  @   &amp; 

if @, then * 

if *, then &amp; 

if &amp;, then *

thus,

if @ then &amp;, 

and if @ then *

where is the uncomputability ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The blogger chitchat concering paradox often seems to suggest that within any axiomatic system there are unprovable truths; but then occasionally it&#8217;s only arithmetic. Does Goedel&#8217;s 1st incompleteness theorem (or the Halting problem) suggest that within any axiomatic system there are unprovable truths, or rather only in arithmetic? Chess for instance is a system with axioms (rules for piece movement); where are the unprovable truths? They might not be easily calculated, but that does not = not able to be calculated; or rather how do we know that truths (the best move) within that well-defined system are not computable in advance?</p>

	<p>The halting problem is a bit different. There may be uncomputable arguments /conclusions within certain systems, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that systems cannot be complete, does it.</p>

	<p>axiom system:</p>


	<ul>
		<li> @   &</li>
	</ul>

	<p>if @, then *</p>

	<p>if *, then &</p>

	<p>if &#038;, then *</p>

	<p>thus,</p>

	<p>if @ then &#038;,</p>

	<p>and if @ then *</p>

	<p>where is the uncomputability ?</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147559</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:15:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147559</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;It doesn’t have to be “two sentences”. Ten pages would be fine by me. And equations are no problem – the more the better.&lt;/em&gt;

Well in that case, one need only look, and the world  of blogs outside of Crooked Timber may provide.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><em>It doesn&#8217;t have to be &#8220;two sentences&#8221;. Ten pages would be fine by me. And equations are no problem &#8211; the more the better.</em></p>

	<p>Well in that case, one need only look, and the world  of blogs outside of Crooked Timber may provide.</p>
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		<title>By: fifi</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147557</link>
		<dc:creator>fifi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Mar 2006 00:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147557</guid>
		<description>I enjoy reading Zizek &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; he’s discursive. Writers that reason in straight lines between unambiguous meanings tend to produce explanations that to me seem concocted or geeky. The way Zizek ranges all over the map to relate the production of subjects and meanings (e.g. human rights) seems to produce results that have more sweep and mystery and real life about them. That’s supposed to make him a crank? Compared to whom-- Nozick? Come on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I enjoy reading Zizek <i>because</i> he&#8217;s discursive. Writers that reason in straight lines between unambiguous meanings tend to produce explanations that to me seem concocted or geeky. The way Zizek ranges all over the map to relate the production of subjects and meanings (e.g. human rights) seems to produce results that have more sweep and mystery and real life about them. That&#8217;s supposed to make him a crank? Compared to whom&#8212;Nozick? Come on.</p>
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		<title>By: Z</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147554</link>
		<dc:creator>Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147554</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;I can set up a general equilibrium model of the economy and compute its equilibria – there’s a huge industry of people doing this and flogging the results to industry and government. Or I can work out the rate of surplus value in a Marxian model. Or I can, say, evaluate the sum 2+2.

All are applications of elementary arithmetic, even if varying in difficulty. Thanks to Godel’s theorem, I know that the self-consistency of elementary arithmetic can’t be proved within arithmetic, but this is no more relevant to GE than the other cases.&lt;/i&gt;

Not so fast John. All your examples involve presumably only bounded numbers. In that case, consistency can be proven. 

&lt;i&gt; I read most of Sartre 30+ years ago […]. I had a reasonable go at Althusser&lt;/i&gt;

Now you impress me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>I can set up a general equilibrium model of the economy and compute its equilibria &#8211; there&#8217;s a huge industry of people doing this and flogging the results to industry and government. Or I can work out the rate of surplus value in a Marxian model. Or I can, say, evaluate the sum 2+2.</i></p>

	<p>All are applications of elementary arithmetic, even if varying in difficulty. Thanks to Godel&#8217;s theorem, I know that the self-consistency of elementary arithmetic can&#8217;t be proved within arithmetic, but this is no more relevant to GE than the other cases.</p>

	<p>Not so fast John. All your examples involve presumably only bounded numbers. In that case, consistency can be proven.</p>

	<p><i> I read most of Sartre 30+ years ago [&#8230;]. I had a reasonable go at Althusser</i></p>

	<p>Now you impress me.</p>
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		<title>By: Walt</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/comment-page-3/#comment-147552</link>
		<dc:creator>Walt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Mar 2006 23:41:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/10/zizek-and-badiou-where-are-you/#comment-147552</guid>
		<description>Jake: Goedel&#039;s theorem (or rather, it&#039;s proof) shows that if you try to ban self-referentiality, that as long as you can axiomitize arithmetic you can sneak it back in.  In terms of computing, you can regard Goedel&#039;s result as a straightforward consequence of the unsolvability of the Halting Problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Jake: Goedel&#8217;s theorem (or rather, it&#8217;s proof) shows that if you try to ban self-referentiality, that as long as you can axiomitize arithmetic you can sneak it back in.  In terms of computing, you can regard Goedel&#8217;s result as a straightforward consequence of the unsolvability of the Halting Problem.</p>
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