<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: John Profumo</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 20:43:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sverre Helgesen</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-148275</link>
		<dc:creator>Sverre Helgesen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 07:33:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-148275</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m truelly amazed to see today&#039;s politicians getting away with blue murder, but I think it&#039;s always been like that, it&#039;s just that the media plays a much bigger role today - TV and satelites bringing us instant, indepth news right into our homes - and we have a far more aggressive media today (that unfortunate Al Grahib (?) jail business for example, which wasn&#039;t and isn&#039;t unique, such things are standard operating procedure. An aside: have you noticed that no officers are ever courtmartialled? Aren&#039;t they responsible for the soldiers under their command, anymore?) Another thing; today&#039;s politicians are usually lawyers, and see to it they can&#039;t be pinned down...personally. Teflon Tony lives on this. &#039;I haven&#039;t lied about WMD!&#039; True, he sees to it he has bumph to back his statements, bumph supplied by faceless - and unaccountable - party workers. That the bumph is a lie isn&#039;t his fault...legally. And Clinton didn&#039;t lie, he just has another view to the rest of the world of what and what isn&#039;t sex!

I only met John Profumo briefly, twice, the first time he was picking up Chris at Ward&#039;s, to go out for a drive and afternoon tea, there&#039;s a photo out on the net Ward took only seconds before Profumo arrived, Chris sitting in an armchair, Ward&#039;s briefcase just behind her right shoulder. Chris is looking at me! (Well, I was a gorgeous boy...) His wife was one of a team of ladies and gents into helping victims of child and wife abuse, trying to find a way of stopping it. Ward did a lot of work for St. Barnardo&#039;s, helping traumatised kids, the press never mentioned that, nor the fact that he never passed East Grinstead without stopping to visit the burned RAF pilots there, having worked with them during the war. I know this, I was with him. Other members were Claire Raynor (cousin to John Mills wife, Mary, who went to school with the lady who started this group, the wife of one of my teachers at Quernmore in Bromley) Mary Woodhouse, Marlene Redman (the Honda roadracer&#039;s wife) Mrs. Carruthers, one of my teachers (husband commanded a regiment of tanks in the desert, actress Jenny Agutter&#039;s father was one of his officers) and 17-18 year old Lady Jaqueline Rufus-Isaacs of Reading, a rape victim herself, as were most of the others in the group, yes, a sad fact. Profumo himself was a silent member, waiting until he was prime minister so he could begin pushing for reform. Most of the violence in society was poverty-based, so wiping out poverty and giving people better housing were on the top of his list. As was sex-education. Profumo and his wife knew that the pill was on the way, and this would cause great distress if the kids weren&#039;t educated how to deal with the free-sex that would follow. Ward had been doing research into sex and teen sex for 2 of the world&#039;s leading psychiatrists, Professor&#039;s Miller and Asher (they had to keep a low profile, this research was illegal) Professor Raphael Cilento was involved too (actress Diane&#039;s dad, Sean Connery&#039;s first wife?) so they were nearly there already when it came up. 

So I wasn&#039;t suprised when I heard that Profumo gave his life to charity-work after the scandal. He was like that.

And it was a scandal, he was framed, it was a setup. Dangerous business, to do with the freemasons, black occult rituals, human sacrifice, by people in high places. Powerful people. Mariella Novotny was murdered to stop her publishing her book, they missed Lady Dymphna Shagwell-Ironside but her secret diaries of those days have now apparently been bought from Martin Baker, the man she trusted to publish them after her death, and thus her story has been suppressed, too. She trusted the wrong guy. Dusty Springfield had a document that would crush Britain. She kept it in a bankbox in the USA, but who has it now she&#039;s dead, I just don&#039;t know. Both she and I witnessed it.
But the truth will come out one day, I&#039;ll see to that. But it&#039;s so fantastic, will people believe it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;m truelly amazed to see today&#8217;s politicians getting away with blue murder, but I think it&#8217;s always been like that, it&#8217;s just that the media plays a much bigger role today &#8211; TV and satelites bringing us instant, indepth news right into our homes &#8211; and we have a far more aggressive media today (that unfortunate Al Grahib (?) jail business for example, which wasn&#8217;t and isn&#8217;t unique, such things are standard operating procedure. An aside: have you noticed that no officers are ever courtmartialled? Aren&#8217;t they responsible for the soldiers under their command, anymore?) Another thing; today&#8217;s politicians are usually lawyers, and see to it they can&#8217;t be pinned down&#8230;personally. Teflon Tony lives on this. &#8216;I haven&#8217;t lied about <span class="caps">WMD</span>!&#8217; True, he sees to it he has bumph to back his statements, bumph supplied by faceless &#8211; and unaccountable &#8211; party workers. That the bumph is a lie isn&#8217;t his fault&#8230;legally. And Clinton didn&#8217;t lie, he just has another view to the rest of the world of what and what isn&#8217;t sex!</p>

	<p>I only met John Profumo briefly, twice, the first time he was picking up Chris at Ward&#8217;s, to go out for a drive and afternoon tea, there&#8217;s a photo out on the net Ward took only seconds before Profumo arrived, Chris sitting in an armchair, Ward&#8217;s briefcase just behind her right shoulder. Chris is looking at me! (Well, I was a gorgeous boy&#8230;) His wife was one of a team of ladies and gents into helping victims of child and wife abuse, trying to find a way of stopping it. Ward did a lot of work for St. Barnardo&#8217;s, helping traumatised kids, the press never mentioned that, nor the fact that he never passed East Grinstead without stopping to visit the burned <span class="caps">RAF</span> pilots there, having worked with them during the war. I know this, I was with him. Other members were Claire Raynor (cousin to John Mills wife, Mary, who went to school with the lady who started this group, the wife of one of my teachers at Quernmore in Bromley) Mary Woodhouse, Marlene Redman (the Honda roadracer&#8217;s wife) Mrs. Carruthers, one of my teachers (husband commanded a regiment of tanks in the desert, actress Jenny Agutter&#8217;s father was one of his officers) and 17-18 year old Lady Jaqueline Rufus-Isaacs of Reading, a rape victim herself, as were most of the others in the group, yes, a sad fact. Profumo himself was a silent member, waiting until he was prime minister so he could begin pushing for reform. Most of the violence in society was poverty-based, so wiping out poverty and giving people better housing were on the top of his list. As was sex-education. Profumo and his wife knew that the pill was on the way, and this would cause great distress if the kids weren&#8217;t educated how to deal with the free-sex that would follow. Ward had been doing research into sex and teen sex for 2 of the world&#8217;s leading psychiatrists, Professor&#8217;s Miller and Asher (they had to keep a low profile, this research was illegal) Professor Raphael Cilento was involved too (actress Diane&#8217;s dad, Sean Connery&#8217;s first wife?) so they were nearly there already when it came up.</p>

	<p>So I wasn&#8217;t suprised when I heard that Profumo gave his life to charity-work after the scandal. He was like that.</p>

	<p>And it was a scandal, he was framed, it was a setup. Dangerous business, to do with the freemasons, black occult rituals, human sacrifice, by people in high places. Powerful people. Mariella Novotny was murdered to stop her publishing her book, they missed Lady Dymphna Shagwell-Ironside but her secret diaries of those days have now apparently been bought from Martin Baker, the man she trusted to publish them after her death, and thus her story has been suppressed, too. She trusted the wrong guy. Dusty Springfield had a document that would crush Britain. She kept it in a bankbox in the <span class="caps">USA</span>, but who has it now she&#8217;s dead, I just don&#8217;t know. Both she and I witnessed it.<br />
But the truth will come out one day, I&#8217;ll see to that. But it&#8217;s so fantastic, will people believe it?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris Williams</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-148111</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 00:34:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-148111</guid>
		<description>A 1940 spotter writes:

(1) Churchill was First Lord (Navy Minister) not Sea Lord (top Admiral).

(2) Partly because I don&#039;t trust Nazi generals, but mostly because it&#039;s not true, I don&#039;t buy the significance of the Battle of Britain. In a nutshell:
http://www.open2.net/thingsweforgot/prog_one.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><span class="caps">A 1940</span> spotter writes:</p>

	<p>(1) Churchill was First Lord (Navy Minister) not Sea Lord (top Admiral).</p>

	<p>(2) Partly because I don&#8217;t trust Nazi generals, but mostly because it&#8217;s not true, I don&#8217;t buy the significance of the Battle of Britain. In a nutshell:<br />
<a href="http://www.open2.net/thingsweforgot/prog_one.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.open2.net/thingsweforgot/prog_one.html</a></p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: harry b</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-148032</link>
		<dc:creator>harry b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-148032</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve been away a couple of days, and probably no-one is following this any more. I didn&#039;t mean to lay the Democrats&#039; current troubles entirely at Clinton&#039;s door, and I realise that his failure to resign was as much a symptom as a cause of the problems the Dems had and still have. Nor did I mean to equate what he did with what Bush has done in terms of outcomes, and was pretty clear about that (eventually!) as josh pointed out. 

I am more or less entirely mystified by the goodwill people vaguely on the left extend to Clinton, assuming it must all be down to some sort of partisanship. I pointed out why I think he should have stepped down, and no-one has really explained why the following combination of acts do not constitute a resigning offence (albeit a much less serious one than leading people into a failed war, even with the best of intentions and information, assuming that is what Bush had, which I don&#039;t):

1) committing pejury
2) very publicly lying to the entire public about the matter on which one has committed perjury
3) lying to one&#039;s own party about the same matter with the presumption that its members will defend you
4) as 3) except to one&#039;s cabinet members some number of whom are one&#039;s friends
5) being found out in time to make it almost impossible for one&#039;s vice president to figure out how to relate to one in the subsequent election in which he is by far the most likely candidate.

So, could any Western European party leader have survived that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve been away a couple of days, and probably no-one is following this any more. I didn&#8217;t mean to lay the Democrats&#8217; current troubles entirely at Clinton&#8217;s door, and I realise that his failure to resign was as much a symptom as a cause of the problems the Dems had and still have. Nor did I mean to equate what he did with what Bush has done in terms of outcomes, and was pretty clear about that (eventually!) as josh pointed out.</p>

	<p>I am more or less entirely mystified by the goodwill people vaguely on the left extend to Clinton, assuming it must all be down to some sort of partisanship. I pointed out why I think he should have stepped down, and no-one has really explained why the following combination of acts do not constitute a resigning offence (albeit a much less serious one than leading people into a failed war, even with the best of intentions and information, assuming that is what Bush had, which I don&#8217;t):</p>

	<p>1) committing pejury<br />
2) very publicly lying to the entire public about the matter on which one has committed perjury<br />
3) lying to one&#8217;s own party about the same matter with the presumption that its members will defend you<br />
4) as 3) except to one&#8217;s cabinet members some number of whom are one&#8217;s friends<br />
5) being found out in time to make it almost impossible for one&#8217;s vice president to figure out how to relate to one in the subsequent election in which he is by far the most likely candidate.</p>

	<p>So, could any Western European party leader have survived that?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147887</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:48:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147887</guid>
		<description>Regarding the Democrats, I would be reluctant to lay their current difficulties at the feet of the Lewinsky scandal.  It&#039;s been five years already, after all.  We&#039;ve got a Republican president who cuts taxes for rich people, invades countries without cause, oversees a regime of torture, is truly disinterested when a hurricane leads to the flooding of a major city, and violates the FISA law.

The Democratic response has been tepid.  Today&#039;s meme is how many more Democratic senators wanted to censure Clinton than Bush.  

Clinton made some political hay out of running away from the traditional Democratic positions.  What we see now is the logical conclusion of this process, a party whose leaders are all running away from their base.  (With the noteworthy exception of Russ Feingold.)

At some point the Democrats need to realize that the fault lies not in the stars, but in themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Regarding the Democrats, I would be reluctant to lay their current difficulties at the feet of the Lewinsky scandal.  It&#8217;s been five years already, after all.  We&#8217;ve got a Republican president who cuts taxes for rich people, invades countries without cause, oversees a regime of torture, is truly disinterested when a hurricane leads to the flooding of a major city, and violates the <span class="caps">FISA</span> law.</p>

	<p>The Democratic response has been tepid.  Today&#8217;s meme is how many more Democratic senators wanted to censure Clinton than Bush.</p>

	<p>Clinton made some political hay out of running away from the traditional Democratic positions.  What we see now is the logical conclusion of this process, a party whose leaders are all running away from their base.  (With the noteworthy exception of Russ Feingold.)</p>

	<p>At some point the Democrats need to realize that the fault lies not in the stars, but in themselves.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: soru</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147867</link>
		<dc:creator>soru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 10:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147867</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;It’s a measure of the extent to which Thatcher and Blair particularly have undermined Parliament that today this would probably be seen as the least of his offences. &lt;/i&gt;

It might be a case of stressing the irony too much, but I think to some extent it was true that it was the atrophy of the press censorship system that led to the growth of prime ministerial powers at the expense of parliament. One of the significant roles of parliament was as a place where anything could be said, and reported as being said. These days, we have the Today programme.

Sampson&#039;s updated issue of &#039;anatomy of britain&#039; had 3 big circles representing the &#039;powers that be&#039; - the rich, the PM (and aides), and the media. All the other actors (parliament, unions, military, judges, etc) are small circles, occupied mainly with defending their own turf, not fighting the big battles.

There have been weak PM&#039;s since things become that way (e.g. major), and they have been eaten for breakfast by the media. And the rich may sometimes buy politicians, but they own the media on a more permanent and formal basis.

One way of looking at things is that only the media is standing between the country and a &#039;big man&#039; dictatorship. But the other is that only the PM is standing between the country and government by Daily Mail/Fox News headline writers.

Worst case, you get both, as in Italy.

Even in america, which generally has a much weaker media establishment, Bush could not push through the Dubai ports deal against the Fox News agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>It&#8217;s a measure of the extent to which Thatcher and Blair particularly have undermined Parliament that today this would probably be seen as the least of his offences. </i></p>

	<p>It might be a case of stressing the irony too much, but I think to some extent it was true that it was the atrophy of the press censorship system that led to the growth of prime ministerial powers at the expense of parliament. One of the significant roles of parliament was as a place where anything could be said, and reported as being said. These days, we have the Today programme.</p>

	<p>Sampson&#8217;s updated issue of &#8216;anatomy of britain&#8217; had 3 big circles representing the &#8216;powers that be&#8217; &#8211; the rich, the <span class="caps">PM </span>(and aides), and the media. All the other actors (parliament, unions, military, judges, etc) are small circles, occupied mainly with defending their own turf, not fighting the big battles.</p>

	<p>There have been weak PM&#8217;s since things become that way (e.g. major), and they have been eaten for breakfast by the media. And the rich may sometimes buy politicians, but they own the media on a more permanent and formal basis.</p>

	<p>One way of looking at things is that only the media is standing between the country and a &#8216;big man&#8217; dictatorship. But the other is that only the PM is standing between the country and government by Daily Mail/Fox News headline writers.</p>

	<p>Worst case, you get both, as in Italy.</p>

	<p>Even in america, which generally has a much weaker media establishment, Bush could not push through the Dubai ports deal against the Fox News agenda.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147860</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Mar 2006 07:51:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147860</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t disagree, Barry; I don&#039;t see that anyone here is &#039;swallowing&#039; Bush&#039;s crimes, or equating them with Clinton&#039;s (my point was that both, as president, have violated laws they swore to uphold; Bush&#039;s violation I think is far more significant -- which isn&#039;t to say, however, that Clinton&#039;s was not significant at all). I do think that Harry expressed the idea that, as far as MOTIVES for wrongdoing go, well-intentioned misjudgment is more sympathetic than crass self-interest (which is what I took him to be saying vis a vis the Clinton/Bush comparison) poorly -- as he&#039;s acknowledged in this thread (#3). As for the Clinton/Profumo comparison, I agree that there&#039;s a difference between presidents and cabinet ministers, but I&#039;m not sure that comparisons of the actions of the two need be &#039;extremely bad&#039;: both are public officials, in whom trust has been placed; and in Profumo&#039;s case,  his position was pretty important to the security of his country. So some comparison of Clinton and Profumo as politicians who lied about affairs they had had, and whose lying about said affairs seriously damaged those who had trusted and depended on them (that is, their parties/government/adminstration) seems apt, even if one should also note the differences. Bush, I agree, is a different case, since his deceptions have been of a very different sort, with different sorts of consequences. But I don&#039;t think Harry would deny this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I don&#8217;t disagree, Barry; I don&#8217;t see that anyone here is &#8216;swallowing&#8217; Bush&#8217;s crimes, or equating them with Clinton&#8217;s (my point was that both, as president, have violated laws they swore to uphold; Bush&#8217;s violation I think is far more significant&#8212;which isn&#8217;t to say, however, that Clinton&#8217;s was not significant at all). I do think that Harry expressed the idea that, as far as <span class="caps">MOTIVES</span> for wrongdoing go, well-intentioned misjudgment is more sympathetic than crass self-interest (which is what I took him to be saying vis a vis the Clinton/Bush comparison) poorly&#8212;as he&#8217;s acknowledged in this thread (#3). As for the Clinton/Profumo comparison, I agree that there&#8217;s a difference between presidents and cabinet ministers, but I&#8217;m not sure that comparisons of the actions of the two need be &#8216;extremely bad&#8217;: both are public officials, in whom trust has been placed; and in Profumo&#8217;s case,  his position was pretty important to the security of his country. So some comparison of Clinton and Profumo as politicians who lied about affairs they had had, and whose lying about said affairs seriously damaged those who had trusted and depended on them (that is, their parties/government/adminstration) seems apt, even if one should also note the differences. Bush, I agree, is a different case, since his deceptions have been of a very different sort, with different sorts of consequences. But I don&#8217;t think Harry would deny this.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147832</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 23:18:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147832</guid>
		<description>josh, at this point it&#039;s clear that comparing Clinton&#039;s actual crimes to Bush&#039;s is like comparing a petty thief with a career criminal.  I&#039;m not impressed by people who strain at Clinton, but swallow Bushes.  Harry&#039;s original comparison was extremely bad; it ignored the difference between a cabinet minister and a president.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>josh, at this point it&#8217;s clear that comparing Clinton&#8217;s actual crimes to Bush&#8217;s is like comparing a petty thief with a career criminal.  I&#8217;m not impressed by people who strain at Clinton, but swallow Bushes.  Harry&#8217;s original comparison was extremely bad; it ignored the difference between a cabinet minister and a president.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: josh</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147815</link>
		<dc:creator>josh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 21:14:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147815</guid>
		<description>Sorry Ray -- when I wrote &#039;so far as I can tell&#039;, I should have instead written &#039;so far as I know, which really isn&#039;t very far at all&#039;. I do think that there is a difference between actually working directly with the poor, and starting a high-profile charitable foundation -- I don&#039;t know how much direct contact Clinton has with those his foundation is helping -- but you&#039;re right, the latter is admirable as well. I retract any slur on Clinton&#039;s post-presidential altruism I may have made.
Not so criticism of Clinton&#039;s conduct over the Lewinsky business: I&#039;m inclined to assign less importance to it in the Democrats&#039; subsequent woes than is Harry, but I do think it was deeply damaging and demoralising for many in the party (and also effectively scuttled much of his second term: even if the impeachment failed to remove Clinton from office, it did effectively overshadow his own agenda for quite some time). I also do think that, while perfect honesty is not to be expected from politicians, those who take an oath to uphold the law of the land ought not to break the law. Profumo, at least, was legally innocent, even if he did offend against the standards of Parliamentary conduct. (And yes, illegal wiretaps are also an example of breaking the law).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sorry Ray&#8212;when I wrote &#8216;so far as I can tell&#8217;, I should have instead written &#8216;so far as I know, which really isn&#8217;t very far at all&#8217;. I do think that there is a difference between actually working directly with the poor, and starting a high-profile charitable foundation&#8212;I don&#8217;t know how much direct contact Clinton has with those his foundation is helping&#8212;but you&#8217;re right, the latter is admirable as well. I retract any slur on Clinton&#8217;s post-presidential altruism I may have made.<br />
Not so criticism of Clinton&#8217;s conduct over the Lewinsky business: I&#8217;m inclined to assign less importance to it in the Democrats&#8217; subsequent woes than is Harry, but I do think it was deeply damaging and demoralising for many in the party (and also effectively scuttled much of his second term: even if the impeachment failed to remove Clinton from office, it did effectively overshadow his own agenda for quite some time). I also do think that, while perfect honesty is not to be expected from politicians, those who take an oath to uphold the law of the land ought not to break the law. Profumo, at least, was legally innocent, even if he did offend against the standards of Parliamentary conduct. (And yes, illegal wiretaps are also an example of breaking the law).</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147806</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 20:43:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147806</guid>
		<description>bob b, thanks for pointing that out.  Harry, I&#039;d place the majority of the lack of leadership on the, frankly, quislings who control the Democratic Party leadership.  Notice that when Bush put his fraudulent first budget on the table, they almost trampled each other in their willingness to sign.  Even in 2005, they only opposed Social Security destruction when it became clear that they didn&#039;t have to lead, merely pose in front of those doing the work. 

I honestly believe that a large number of them figure that they can have a nice career as the GOP slowly destroys the Democratic Party.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>bob b, thanks for pointing that out.  Harry, I&#8217;d place the majority of the lack of leadership on the, frankly, quislings who control the Democratic Party leadership.  Notice that when Bush put his fraudulent first budget on the table, they almost trampled each other in their willingness to sign.  Even in 2005, they only opposed Social Security destruction when it became clear that they didn&#8217;t have to lead, merely pose in front of those doing the work.</p>

	<p>I honestly believe that a large number of them figure that they can have a nice career as the <span class="caps">GOP</span> slowly destroys the Democratic Party.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147776</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:36:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147776</guid>
		<description>Well, he still could&#039;ve moved out to Jersey. But yeah . . . He&#039;s probably done more for downtown Little Rock, regardless, from what I could tell from visiting there over the summer. 

In any case, Bubba doesn&#039;t have to sell all his valuables and go live in a shack while teaching kids how to read and whatnot, does he? And wouldn&#039;t it be more moral for a person to do his or her charitable work in as nearly an anonymous fashion as possible? What&#039;s the standard here? Would he ever deserve to overcome Monica&#039;s effect on his historical legacy anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Well, he still could&#8217;ve moved out to Jersey. But yeah . . . He&#8217;s probably done more for downtown Little Rock, regardless, from what I could tell from visiting there over the summer.</p>

	<p>In any case, Bubba doesn&#8217;t have to sell all his valuables and go live in a shack while teaching kids how to read and whatnot, does he? And wouldn&#8217;t it be more moral for a person to do his or her charitable work in as nearly an anonymous fashion as possible? What&#8217;s the standard here? Would he ever deserve to overcome Monica&#8217;s effect on his historical legacy anyway?</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147746</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 18:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147746</guid>
		<description>Ray --

Bubba established his Foundation in Harlem only after there was an outcry about him establishing it downtown, in a much richer part of Manhattan.    

Deft political touch or what?!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ray&#8212;<br />
Bubba established his Foundation in Harlem only after there was an outcry about him establishing it downtown, in a much richer part of Manhattan.</p>

	<p>Deft political touch or what?!</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147743</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 17:13:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147743</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ve seen these comments re Bill Clinton and philanthropy:

-- Clinton, so far as I can tell, has not been pursuing quite so altruistic a course, post-presidency.

-- I wouldn’t expect Bush to devote his subsequent life to good works, because I believe he is so obviously lacking in the moral strength and insight that would lead someone to do that. (ditto Clinton . . .


I have my problems with Clinton, mainly in re to a squandering of his talent and political skills. But the charges against him here are wildly unfair. Let&#039;s see . . . He based his foundation in Harlem, boosting economic development in that area, he and his foundation have been committed to fighting AIDS worldwide, he headed (with George H.W. Bush) the fundraising efforts for victims of the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, has raised billions for an effort to fight poverty and global climate change, etc. What else do you want him to do? You can read more about this at: 

http://www.clintonfoundation.org/

And please note that I don&#039;t work for him or anything. I just think you&#039;re giving him way too hard of a time, when most of us don&#039;t do 1/32nd of  the charitable work he&#039;s done--neither did many other former presidents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve seen these comments re Bill Clinton and philanthropy:<br />
&#8212;Clinton, so far as I can tell, has not been pursuing quite so altruistic a course, post-presidency.<br />
&#8212;I wouldn&#8217;t expect Bush to devote his subsequent life to good works, because I believe he is so obviously lacking in the moral strength and insight that would lead someone to do that. (ditto Clinton . . .</p>


	<p>I have my problems with Clinton, mainly in re to a squandering of his talent and political skills. But the charges against him here are wildly unfair. Let&#8217;s see . . . He based his foundation in Harlem, boosting economic development in that area, he and his foundation have been committed to fighting <span class="caps">AIDS</span> worldwide, he headed (with George H.W. Bush) the fundraising efforts for victims of the tsunami and Hurricane Katrina, has raised billions for an effort to fight poverty and global climate change, etc. What else do you want him to do? You can read more about this at:</p>

	<p><a href="http://www.clintonfoundation.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.clintonfoundation.org/</a></p>

	<p>And please note that I don&#8217;t work for him or anything. I just think you&#8217;re giving him way too hard of a time, when most of us don&#8217;t do 1/32nd of  the charitable work he&#8217;s done&#8212;neither did many other former presidents.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jaybird</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147740</link>
		<dc:creator>Jaybird</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147740</guid>
		<description>Harry, a quick way out of this is just to say that Bush is worse than Hitler and deserves to be sodomized in Hell for all eternity. Spend five or six paragraphs on this one point.

Then say that maybe Clinton should have resigned for lying.

You&#039;ll have to deal with maybe only 60% of the &quot;BUT WHAT ABOUT BUSH!!!!&quot; comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry, a quick way out of this is just to say that Bush is worse than Hitler and deserves to be sodomized in Hell for all eternity. Spend five or six paragraphs on this one point.</p>

	<p>Then say that maybe Clinton should have resigned for lying.</p>

	<p>You&#8217;ll have to deal with maybe only 60% of the &#8220;BUT <span class="caps">WHAT ABOUT BUSH</span><img src="!" alt="" border="0" />!&#8221; comments.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bob B</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147731</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147731</guid>
		<description>Harry - I followed from afar and mostly online the unfolding of the Clinton-Lewinsky saga and at the time engaged in many online debates with Americans. Throughout, as I recall, polls showed a steady c. 60% support among the American public for Clinton. It quickly became predictable that the impeachment tactic was going to fail if only because it went against the grain of public sentiment and so it proved to be.

Switch contexts: when Clinton has visited Britain since he has been spontaneously and warmly welcomed. He is noticeably at ease here and people here evidently feel at ease with him. When Bush makes a visit here he has to be so heavily guarded to protect his security that there is no prospect of any spontaneous displays whatever and that&#039;s probably a wise precaution. My personal guess is that many here associate with the recent assessment of a columnist in the London Times:

&quot;The President is a dolt: For the past five years, America has been led by a president who is clearly not up to the job — a man who is not just inarticulate, but lacking in judgment, intelligence, integrity, charisma or staying power. Yet America as a nation seems to be stronger, more prosperous and self-confident than ever.&quot; 
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,1061-2020738,00.html

On the evidence, I&#039;m simply unpersuaded that the problems of the Democrats are all down to Clinton. The more obvious and convincing diagnosis is that the Democrats are too fragmented and have no coherent voice on any of the issues of moment - the Iraq war, trade liberalisation, fiscal policy etc. That, not Clinton, is the central problem of the Democrats. If he could restand for the presidency, my guess is that he would be re-elected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Harry &#8211; I followed from afar and mostly online the unfolding of the Clinton-Lewinsky saga and at the time engaged in many online debates with Americans. Throughout, as I recall, polls showed a steady c. 60% support among the American public for Clinton. It quickly became predictable that the impeachment tactic was going to fail if only because it went against the grain of public sentiment and so it proved to be.</p>

	<p>Switch contexts: when Clinton has visited Britain since he has been spontaneously and warmly welcomed. He is noticeably at ease here and people here evidently feel at ease with him. When Bush makes a visit here he has to be so heavily guarded to protect his security that there is no prospect of any spontaneous displays whatever and that&#8217;s probably a wise precaution. My personal guess is that many here associate with the recent assessment of a columnist in the London Times:</p>

	<p>&#8220;The President is a dolt: For the past five years, America has been led by a president who is clearly not up to the job &#8212; a man who is not just inarticulate, but lacking in judgment, intelligence, integrity, charisma or staying power. Yet America as a nation seems to be stronger, more prosperous and self-confident than ever.&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0" rel="nofollow">http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0</a>,,1061-2020738,00.html</p>

	<p>On the evidence, I&#8217;m simply unpersuaded that the problems of the Democrats are all down to Clinton. The more obvious and convincing diagnosis is that the Democrats are too fragmented and have no coherent voice on any of the issues of moment &#8211; the Iraq war, trade liberalisation, fiscal policy etc. That, not Clinton, is the central problem of the Democrats. If he could restand for the presidency, my guess is that he would be re-elected.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: david tiley</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/13/john-profumo/comment-page-1/#comment-147727</link>
		<dc:creator>david tiley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Mar 2006 14:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4423#comment-147727</guid>
		<description>But the French, at least, would not have fallen on the issue and gone all prurient in the papers, would they? Even in Australia, Ben Chifley&#039;s mistress was kept from the public gaze by convention.

If Clinton had been Miterrand, he may well have been chased around the Oval Office by Hilary with a big wooden spoon, but he would never have needed to produce the original lie.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>But the French, at least, would not have fallen on the issue and gone all prurient in the papers, would they? Even in Australia, Ben Chifley&#8217;s mistress was kept from the public gaze by convention.</p>

	<p>If Clinton had been Miterrand, he may well have been chased around the Oval Office by Hilary with a big wooden spoon, but he would never have needed to produce the original lie.</p>
 ]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

