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	<title>Comments on: A Tale of Two Countries</title>
	<atom:link href="http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/</link>
	<description>Out of the crooked timber of humanity, no straight thing was ever made</description>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148286</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 13:34:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148286</guid>
		<description>How is too far? You do realize that &quot;free market&quot; is synonym for &quot;competition&quot;, don&#039;t you? Are you a commie?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>How is too far? You do realize that &#8220;free market&#8221; is synonym for &#8220;competition&#8221;, don&#8217;t you? Are you a commie?</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148271</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 18 Mar 2006 05:41:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148271</guid>
		<description>abb1 now has gone too far, as he&#039;s begun an outrageous antitrust attack on Mr. Steve Jobs&#039; Apple.   

Then again, Mr. Jobs is a billionaire several times over.  I suppose he has it coming.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1 now has gone too far, as he&#8217;s begun an outrageous antitrust attack on Mr. Steve Jobs&#8217; Apple.</p>

	<p>Then again, Mr. Jobs is a billionaire several times over.  I suppose he has it coming.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148160</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 11:03:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148160</guid>
		<description>Why, not only monopoly size, but a lot of various practices. Employment practices. Various forms of contracts, agreements, etc., like bundling software with hardware. Plenty of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Why, not only monopoly size, but a lot of various practices. Employment practices. Various forms of contracts, agreements, etc., like bundling software with hardware. Plenty of things.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148153</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148153</guid>
		<description>Sure, there should be limits to how large a company can become. Anti-monopoly laws and so on. We have them too. MicroS got hit by the European Union, for example. WalMart not yet as they have, what is it, 12% of the market, about the same as Tesco in the UK? 
You seem to be arguing that the definition of monopoly which triggers such action should be lower than it is. Fine, go ahead and argue so, but a little unfair to argue that we have no such limits at all at present.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Sure, there should be limits to how large a company can become. Anti-monopoly laws and so on. We have them too. MicroS got hit by the European Union, for example. WalMart not yet as they have, what is it, 12% of the market, about the same as Tesco in the UK?<br />
You seem to be arguing that the definition of monopoly which triggers such action should be lower than it is. Fine, go ahead and argue so, but a little unfair to argue that we have no such limits at all at present.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148150</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2006 09:23:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148150</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s not about legitimate or illegitimate means, it&#039;s about the kind of behaviour that is rewarded. 

See, you could set the rules in such a way that they would discourage companies from growing too big, from taking large share of the market, etc.; reflecting a more classical model of capitalism. Then (if this is at all possible) you wouldn&#039;t have any billionaires, but the rest of us would&#039;ve been better off.

Alternatively, you could relax the rules even more and create even bigger conglomerates, destroy the environment, etc.

This all can be tuned, nothing is god-given.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>It&#8217;s not about legitimate or illegitimate means, it&#8217;s about the kind of behaviour that is rewarded.</p>

	<p>See, you could set the rules in such a way that they would discourage companies from growing too big, from taking large share of the market, etc.; reflecting a more classical model of capitalism. Then (if this is at all possible) you wouldn&#8217;t have any billionaires, but the rest of us would&#8217;ve been better off.</p>

	<p>Alternatively, you could relax the rules even more and create even bigger conglomerates, destroy the environment, etc.</p>

	<p>This all can be tuned, nothing is god-given.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148103</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 23:59:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148103</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;Walmart is a business that’s not only responsible for destroying millions of small retail businesses,&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

And how in the world could you be massively successful as a retailer, WITHOUT &quot;destroying small retail businesses&quot;? Got news for you, abb1; Destroying a business by out-competing it is PART of a functioning market, not a malfunction.

As for your anecdotes, keep piling them up. I have no objection to proving that particular people got wealthy by illegitimate means, what I object to is the assumption that if somebody is wealthy, they MUST have used illegitimate means to get that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;Walmart is a business that&#8217;s not only responsible for destroying millions of small retail businesses,&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>And how in the world could you be massively successful as a retailer, <span class="caps">WITHOUT </span>&#8220;destroying small retail businesses&#8221;? Got news for you, abb1; Destroying a business by out-competing it is <span class="caps">PART</span> of a functioning market, not a malfunction.</p>

	<p>As for your anecdotes, keep piling them up. I have no objection to proving that particular people got wealthy by illegitimate means, what I object to is the assumption that if somebody is wealthy, they <span class="caps">MUST</span> have used illegitimate means to get that way.</p>
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		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148060</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 17:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148060</guid>
		<description>Ah, we used to have one of those. Very strong sales tactics, almost like a cult. But how rich is this guy? He didn&#039;t destroy the competition.

Look, take the top 2 fellas on the list. They initially built their software empire by getting an exclusive agreement with monopolistic PC manufacturer. They are responsible for massive abuse of monopoly power, bullying, destroying talent everywhere, sabotaging good products (i.e. &#039;polluted java&#039;) - these are facts.

I am sure all the living children of Walmart founder are among the top 100. Walmart is a business that&#039;s not only responsible for destroying millions of small retail businesses, but also for ruthless exploitation both inside and outside the US. 

How&#039;s that for an anecdote? These are methods rewarded by the economic system to unimaginable degree. How can it be a good thing, how does it help you and me?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Ah, we used to have one of those. Very strong sales tactics, almost like a cult. But how rich is this guy? He didn&#8217;t destroy the competition.</p>

	<p>Look, take the top 2 fellas on the list. They initially built their software empire by getting an exclusive agreement with monopolistic PC manufacturer. They are responsible for massive abuse of monopoly power, bullying, destroying talent everywhere, sabotaging good products (i.e. &#8216;polluted java&#8217;) &#8211; these are facts.</p>

	<p>I am sure all the living children of Walmart founder are among the top 100. Walmart is a business that&#8217;s not only responsible for destroying millions of small retail businesses, but also for ruthless exploitation both inside and outside the US.</p>

	<p>How&#8217;s that for an anecdote? These are methods rewarded by the economic system to unimaginable degree. How can it be a good thing, how does it help you and me?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148045</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 16:32:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148045</guid>
		<description>abb1.

What about James Dyson? Lone whacko, new type of vaccum cleaner, perhaps not a billionaire but certainly half one in sterling. Beat off a patent challenge from (Hoover? Electrolux?) as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>abb1.</p>

	<p>What about James Dyson? Lone whacko, new type of vaccum cleaner, perhaps not a billionaire but certainly half one in sterling. Beat off a patent challenge from (Hoover? Electrolux?) as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Thomas</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148034</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:15:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148034</guid>
		<description>elliott, I guess I assumed that once we&#039;re talking about all of the gain, we&#039;re out of the realm of anecdotes and into the world of data.  

If SH is right, we&#039;d have to think hard about whether income inequality is really a &quot;problem&quot;, wouldn&#039;t we?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>elliott, I guess I assumed that once we&#8217;re talking about all of the gain, we&#8217;re out of the realm of anecdotes and into the world of data.</p>

	<p>If SH is right, we&#8217;d have to think hard about whether income inequality is really a &#8220;problem&#8221;, wouldn&#8217;t we?</p>
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		<title>By: SamChevre</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148024</link>
		<dc:creator>SamChevre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:41:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148024</guid>
		<description>Elliot (and Henry)

Coming in late, sort of in defense of SH--answering your &quot;So what?&quot; in #161.  (I was recommended some literature that was fairly explicit on this point when I wrote major paper on inequality transmission, but that was years ago.)

Here&#039;s the problem: &quot;most of the income gains are accruing to a group that is small and largely static.&quot;  Most people--certainly most non-statisticians--are going to assume that the gains are going to the group in some sort of evenly distributed fashion.  But what can be happening is that only the non-static portion of the group is experiencing any gains--only the entrants (entreprenuers) are gaining, and the static portion of the group has static income.

That&#039;s one of the known, large problems with studies of income inequality--that they are not always clearly translatable from groups to individuals.  (Classic example--suppose everyone gets $1 million at age 60, and has steadily rising, but fairly low, income and wealth to that point; all the high earners will be relatively wealthy, but wealth will not predict likelihood of someday being a high earner at all.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Elliot (and Henry)</p>

	<p>Coming in late, sort of in defense of SH&#8212;answering your &#8220;So what?&#8221; in #161.  (I was recommended some literature that was fairly explicit on this point when I wrote major paper on inequality transmission, but that was years ago.)</p>

	<p>Here&#8217;s the problem: &#8220;most of the income gains are accruing to a group that is small and largely static.&#8221;  Most people&#8212;certainly most non-statisticians&#8212;are going to assume that the gains are going to the group in some sort of evenly distributed fashion.  But what can be happening is that only the non-static portion of the group is experiencing any gains&#8212;only the entrants (entreprenuers) are gaining, and the static portion of the group has static income.</p>

	<p>That&#8217;s one of the known, large problems with studies of income inequality&#8212;that they are not always clearly translatable from groups to individuals.  (Classic example&#8212;suppose everyone gets $1 million at age 60, and has steadily rising, but fairly low, income and wealth to that point; all the high earners will be relatively wealthy, but wealth will not predict likelihood of someday being a high earner at all.)</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148018</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 14:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148018</guid>
		<description>The so-called &#039;patent monopoly&#039; is not the kind of monopoly I&#039;m talking about. The inventor has the right, but s/he can sell it retail, to many competing companies; the &#039;lone whacko&#039; inventor you brought up is not in a position to dominate the market, even if he does have a patent. 

And yes, if one large company gets a hold on an important patent, then we have a problem, as we do now with pharmaceuticals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The so-called &#8216;patent monopoly&#8217; is not the kind of monopoly I&#8217;m talking about. The inventor has the right, but s/he can sell it retail, to many competing companies; the &#8216;lone whacko&#8217; inventor you brought up is not in a position to dominate the market, even if he does have a patent.</p>

	<p>And yes, if one large company gets a hold on an important patent, then we have a problem, as we do now with pharmaceuticals.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Worstall</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148014</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Worstall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 13:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148014</guid>
		<description>And the point of patents is that a monopoly for a limited time does indeed encourage innovation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>And the point of patents is that a monopoly for a limited time does indeed encourage innovation.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-148000</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-148000</guid>
		<description>No, the inventor is entitled to benefit of course. But like I said, it&#039;s not the inventor who becomes a billionaire, it&#039;s the guy who builds a monopoly, sometimes based on an invention initially, sometimes by other means. Monopoly doesn&#039;t promote progress, quite the opposite.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>No, the inventor is entitled to benefit of course. But like I said, it&#8217;s not the inventor who becomes a billionaire, it&#8217;s the guy who builds a monopoly, sometimes based on an invention initially, sometimes by other means. Monopoly doesn&#8217;t promote progress, quite the opposite.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bellmore</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-147998</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bellmore</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-147998</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;But only the guy who manages to exploit this idea in a monopolistic sort of way will become a billionaire.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

More or less by definition. Your complaint is with the copyright clause, 

&lt;b&gt; To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;&lt;/b&gt;

Apparently you don&#039;t LIKE the idea of promoting Progress of Science and useful Arts, in as much as you want Authors and Inventors to get only the same reward as the people who copy their creations without having played any part in originating them...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;But only the guy who manages to exploit this idea in a monopolistic sort of way will become a billionaire.&#8221;</i></p>

	<p>More or less by definition. Your complaint is with the copyright clause,</p>

	<p><b> To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;</b></p>

	<p>Apparently you don&#8217;t <span class="caps">LIKE</span> the idea of promoting Progress of Science and useful Arts, in as much as you want Authors and Inventors to get only the same reward as the people who copy their creations without having played any part in originating them&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: abb1</title>
		<link>http://crookedtimber.org/2006/03/14/a-tale-of-two-countries/comment-page-4/#comment-147994</link>
		<dc:creator>abb1</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Mar 2006 11:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://crookedtimber.org/?p=4425#comment-147994</guid>
		<description>A lone whacko may invent something. He/she may even make some money off it (unlikely tho) if he manages to obtain a patent. But only the guy who manages to exploit this idea in a monopolistic sort of way will become a billionaire.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>A lone whacko may invent something. He/she may even make some money off it (unlikely tho) if he manages to obtain a patent. But only the guy who manages to exploit this idea in a monopolistic sort of way will become a billionaire.</p>
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